What do Dog Shows really assess?

[Elaine]

Just this morning I had a chance to read a Doberman Digest article written by Minaz Cassum about Dobermans in India. What a pleasure! Minaz is an excellent writer. If you get a chance to read the article, it is well worth your time.

With respect to the dog show world in India… it must be an exciting place, in part because they seem to be a bit more focused on the dogs themselves, and in part because they have not yet become heavily focused on “professional handlers.”

Don't get me wrong, we see the value of using professional handlers. Here's why: A judge is essentially allotted 3 minutes to judge each dog. Judges are encouraged/required to stay on a schedule. Each dog has but a few minutes to be presented in the most competitive manner possible. A judge does not have unlimited time to waste, trying to see through poor handling, especially when other entries in the ring are being presented beautifully. We use professional handlers in order that the judge – in the brief time he/she has to assess our dogs – will see the dog in the best possible light. Ultimately owners want to capture that moment we’ve all seen when the dog has alerted on a squirrel. We have a very short time to project that visual image to the judge… and the best chance of doing that is with a professional handler. And, to be blunt, a mediocre handler can completely undo a good dog. Arthur and I are about as mediocre a pair of handlers as you will ever run across, we know our abilities and limitations, and therefore we use professionals to show our dogs. Though we use professional handlers, between you and I, I sometimes wonder if they are good or bad for the breed.

Standing ringside at any of our shows it occurs to me that we in America have mastered the art of manipulating and massaging the dog into a silhouette that looks good in a stack, in a line up to a judge, and/or inprint ads. It is a thrill to see the top handlers in our breed in a line up, each presenting their dog in the best manner possible.

As a breeder, the problems start when the dog takes a step from the stack. Things can fall apart rather dramatically, reflecting faulty conformation that will reappear in the generations to come. I sometimes wonder if we should divide our classes into “Breeding Animals” and “Show Dogs”, because they are not necessarily the same thing. For example, BIS Ch. Toledobes Serengeti (the top winning Doberman Bitch of all time) has left behind no legacy at all in the whelping box. If there are any progeny of Sera’s one litter by Thunder(all of whom finished), I have never heard of them contributing in any manner what-so-ever. As of November 2009, there are no Sera progeny in demand in breeding programs. After all this time, nothing at all of her remains.

So what does that say about Sera and our show system? Was she simply an artifact of money, backers, political connections and hype? Was she actually only a good Show Dog, but not a good Breeding Animal? Conversely, Trotyl has been out recently as a special. To be fair, he did not set the on world fire in the Breed Ring, yet as a sire he is dominating the breed at the moment. I can’t think of any other dog in the US that has been as influential as Trotyl, nor used by such a wide variety of top breeders. So, Sera was the ultimate show bitch and yet left nothing behind; Trotyl is not remotely successful as a Special, yet he will leave a legacy that will last for generations. Is it possible that our dog show system simply does not identify valuable breeding animals?

[RaindanceIGs]

Breeding and showing are 2 completely separate things as far as I am concerned.

Sera was an absolutely beautiful animal. But, Sera reached her status as Number 1 working bitch because she was ENABLED to. Would she have reached the same status if she were not shown every weekend? If she did not fly all over the country to attend the shows with either the best judges or highest number of points? No, probably not. What if I had owned her? Well she'd probably have finished and then been a couch potato, maybe I would have tried to special her myself - but undoubtedly I'd probably lose 99% of the time to a 'face' ;) The fact that she didn't go on to be much of a producer? I've only seen pictures of the puppies, but they seemed nice. To my knowledge she was only bred once, for what reasons I do not know personally (and they don't matter). Not sure though what you can really tell from a single litter how well a dog is as a producer.

In the example of Trotyl, in my experience - dogs produce their PEDIGREE, and NOT themselves. Really it's no surprise to me that a dog could be one thing and yet stamp certain qualities consistently despite the pedigree of the bitch he is brought to. Who cares if he's no big winning special? Who cares if ANY dog is a big winning special or not? Maybe I'm jaded, but I've seen enough bad judging around to really not think too highly of 99% of judges out there so what difference is it to me if they like the dog I would like to breed to or not? I care more about what my mentors and experienced friends think of any dog in particular than if the dog had won BIS at every show it was ever entered. And even if it had - that doesn't mean that's what he'd produce - and just because he wins BIS doesn't mean I like him. Hasn't everyone seen dogs go BIS that were absolutely horrid? Happens all the time.

When I do a breeding I usually look at the sire's parents, the parents get, siblings of the parents and what they've produced, then any other immediate family like grandparents / cousins etc. I'll also look at the get of the stud dog - if he has any. If a square box had the pedigree I wanted, and produced the qualities I wanted, what the dog actually looks like is a small piece of the puzzle. Some years ago in Italian Greyhounds I bred to an imported dog who was very linebred on a very interesting and somewhat uncommon/rare pedigree (grandsire/granddaughter breeding) - he went back to a number of really wonderful old US dogs that had been exported and the lines they came from ended up being somewhat 'lost' in pedigrees nowadays. The dog himself wasn't much to look at. I lure coursed him for his owner and showed him twice at conformation shows, by some grace of G-d he actually got a major by some fluke under an Irish judge, and he was never shown again and currently lives in a pet home. I bred him to a lovely bitch that complemented his pedigree and I got a really beautiful litter - each and every one better than their sire. While an extreme example (breeding to a mediocre unfinished dog who had a pedigree I loved) - I got better results in that breeding than when I have bred to group-winning / top-producing dogs. The show ring can't tell you what your genes are made of!

JUST BECAUSE IT WINS DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING! Sometimes, dogs go up because they are only better than their competition. Simply winning doesn't make a dog correct. What if there aren't any correct dogs to choose from? Someone has to win! You should already know what is correct and what is a good dog, and you shouldn't need the show ring to tell you that. If dog showing ended tomorrow, would it impact your breeding program? Wouldn't you still be breeding to dogs that had/produced the same qualities you were seeking regardless?

So, it shouldn't really be any phenomenon that dogs that win a lot and dogs that produce well aren't always one in the same :)

[Elaine]

We seem to agree on many points… :) without question many important and valuable breeding animals were not much in the show ring. For example, Ch. Monkery’s Buckskin a.k.a. Peter (an English import who in the 1980’s sired over 75 Bull Terrier champions) had trouble finishing in the USA. Many judges utterly failed to see Peter’s superb quality.

I suspect that most experienced dog people share (at least to some degree) our feelings about the value of the show ring in making breeding decisions. But, we are speaking in generalities. It is possible to have an animal that is both an extraordinary show dog and an exceptional breeding animal. Such animals are rare, but they exist, Kafka was one that comes to mind.

As for seeing junk go BIS… in my experience that is not nearly as common as having “junk” win a Breed here and there. It’s one thing for a judge to look like a fool and/or play games at the Breed level, but by Group and BIS the judge’s peers are watching, and putting up junk reflects back very poorly on the judge.

I may not always love the dog that goes BIS, sometimes I simply don’t care for the particular breed that goes BIS, but most always I can see its merit and quality.

[RaindanceIGs]

The biggest offense that I see in dogs going up for BIS is lack of breed type - a generic dog with that 'Great American Show Dog' flashy gait which may not be correct for the breed. Not talking about just Dobermans here, although there have been plenty of BIS winning dobermans that I've not cared for. In Italian Greyhounds, the past 3 or 4 BIS winning dogs over past 5 years I think I would have put in pet homes due to their lack of breed type and have no interest in breeding to anything going back to them any time in the near future. Sure, your general all-around judges can pick out a balanced and sound dog - but if the dog does not have the qualities of its breed that differentiates it from all others that may be the biggest offense of all - and I do think it happens quite often.

As far as judges occasionally being able to recognize and award animals that are both good examples of the breed who also go on to produce well, sure it does happen often enough. But with all the Popular Sire issues that all breeds are having it seems, I usually tend to seek out those dogs that are unknown and not highly sought after for this that or the other reason. And just because an animal IS a nice producer doesn't mean it needs to be bred to everything with a pulse either - would be nice in 10 or 20 years to still have some genetic diversity in the gene pool.

[doberdogsfd]

Like Elaine, I agree with you on many points.

The ability to put a dog out with a top handler as a specials and pump money into the dog is what brings BIS, in my opinion.
The gem that is CJ is a wonderful happening in the dobe ring these days. Clearly, the royalty of Doberman handlers is on her and behind her, but let's be up front, the bitch is really dazzling. She deserves it.

The great dogs though, aren't necassarily the BIS winners. Those that move the breed in a positive and correct direction are.

Cheryl

[RaindanceIGs]

Like Elaine, I agree with you on many points.

The ability to put a dog out with a top handler as a specials and pump money into the dog is what brings BIS, in my opinion.
The gem that is CJ is a wonderful happening in the dobe ring these days. Clearly, the royalty of Doberman handlers is on her and behind her, but let's be up front, the bitch is really dazzling. She deserves it.

The great dogs though, aren't nesassarily the BIS winners. Those that move the breed in a positive and correct direction are.

Cheryl

I agree - she's an absolutely lovely dog and quite deserving of everything that she and Carissa have accomplished together!

But I agree that a dog needn't be a BIS winner to have a positive contribution - either on the breed as a whole or simply one individual's breeding program.

[Elaine]

... a dog needn't be a BIS winner to have a positive contribution - either on the breed as a whole or simply one individual's breeding program.


Agreed! We’ve been looking for a line-bred black male (with no Lex or SA bloodline) to breed to Brentina. It will be her last breeding. We want a pedigree with a strong bottom line, and a phenotype with good shoulders, a strong topline and good tail set. Good luck trying to find that package. I can only think of one dog that fits the bill, and he may not be available.

The dog we are looking for is probably sitting in someone's back yard. If it’s the right dog for the bitch, it really does not matter if it has a CH. in front of his name. I have absolutely no problem breeding to an unfinished dog. I have used class dogs before and always had success. For example, Trotyl was not finished when we bred to him. We were the second breeders to use him. Not sure if Trotyl's first litter was even born when we told Ron we wanted to use Trotyl for Brentina. In fact, Tungsten had just won a major (and Trotyl was in the competition) on the day that we told Ron we wanted to use Trotyl. Titan was also in the ring. It was the Roanoke VA shows, back in the summer of 2006. We have video of it... Trotyl was a class dog with Diego... and Tungsten and Titan were in the ring... I think there is a clip of it on our website somewhere. Trotyl was the right dog for Brentina, regardless of whether he was even finished.

[Kissntell]

Elaine...maybe Eve Auch?

Interesting re the class dog thing. I remember way back the same thing...I bred to an unfinished class dog. Not until the dog finished did he become an active stud dog.

I think people are afraid that they don't know what they need or afraid (in many ways besides stud fee) of the price so they by-pass dogs that should be considered.

Anyway...my original line of dogs had HEALTH. The average life span was 15 years. I put down my last bitch a few years ago that was 4 months short of 16 years old. This is unheard of in Dobermans. No one wanted to breed to any of them because they had no pedigree. Look what they missed! These dogs came from my own then crossed with that class dog. They did well in the classes; but at the time I was a young single mom and couldn't finish them.

[RaindanceIGs]

Agreed! We’ve been looking for a line-bred black male (with no Lex or SA bloodline) to breed to Brentina. It will be her last breeding. We want a pedigree with a strong bottom line, and a phenotype with good shoulders, a strong topline and good tail set. Good luck trying to find that package. I can only think of one dog that fits the bill, and he may not be available.

The dog we are looking for is probably sitting in someone's back yard. If it’s the right dog for the bitch, it really does not matter if it has a CH. in front of his name. I have absolutely no problem breeding to an unfinished dog. I have used class dogs before and always had success. For example, Trotyl was not finished when we bred to him. We were the second breeders to use him. Not sure if Trotyl's first litter was even born when we told Ron we wanted to use Trotyl for Brentina. In fact, Tungsten had just won a major (and Trotyl was in the competition) on the day that we told Ron we wanted to use Trotyl. Titan was also in the ring. It was the Roanoke VA shows, back in the summer of 2006. We have video of it... Trotyl was a class dog with Diego... and Tungsten and Titan were in the ring... I think there is a clip of it on our website somewhere. Trotyl was the right dog for Brentina, regardless of whether he was even finished.

My litter in 2008 (that my bitch Karma came from) was out of an unfinished German import (IG - not doberman). The dog had 2 points but the owner never showed her more than a handful of times, because fellow exhibitors 'convinced her' that her dog was a piece of crap who wouldn't win. The dog was STUNNING! Had I owned her I probably would have specialed her. So the owner put her away and had a couple litters from her, although they never really amounted much to anything (she did some weird linebreedings with her that I never cared for). I jumped at the opportunity to lease her for her last litter - and can't say how pleased I am to have a daughter from that glorious bitch! Nope, no title on the front of her name - although it was through no fault of her own.

[RaindanceIGs]

Elaine...maybe Eve Auch?

Interesting re the class dog thing. I remember way back the same thing...I bred to an unfinished class dog. Not until the dog finished did he become an active stud dog.

I think people are afraid that they don't know what they need or afraid (in many ways besides stud fee) of the price so they by-pass dogs that should be considered.

Anyway...my original line of dogs had HEALTH. The average life span was 15 years. I put down my last bitch a few years ago that was 4 months short of 16 years old. This is unheard of in Dobermans. No one wanted to breed to any of them because they had no pedigree. Look what they missed! These dogs came from my own then crossed with that class dog. They did well in the classes; but at the time I was a young single mom and couldn't finish them.

I'd love to travel the world some day and just visit various breeders and see the dogs they have sitting in their yards who were never 'highly sought after.' I tend to like dogs that the 'general public' (ie: people that can't form their own opinions by themselves) doesn't seem to like or understand. I see a lot of value in little-used pedigrees with proven health behind them. Also I find that dogs that don't go back to all the same popular sires actually have qualities that the current dogs in the gene pool lack (ie: level topline without a big dip behind the withers, correct tailset, a correct moderate front assembly that isn't overdone, nice heads, compact bodies etc). Every time we linebreed on these popular sires everyone runs to we lose genetic diversity and lose qualities in the breed that we'll never get back. A dream of mine is either to import a dog or find a dog with a pedigree that doesn't go back to ANY popular sires of the breed within the past 15 years, and do a frozen breeding to a dog that shared similar qualities in the pedigree (few popular sires) - so that I could start out with something that no one else had, and dip back into current breeding population (or certain parts) as I saw fit.

[Kissntell]

That old pedigree that I had went back to some original foundation stock. There was Felix Von Arthral, Highbiar' Bandana, Pipping Rock, etc as three generation grandparents.

Anyway, what I found was that current people with their "famous" pedigrees wanted nothing to do with it.

I did try to breed to Ch Marienburg's Repo Man with that line as Mary Rodgers approved. It didn't work. But its just as well because he had copper storage disease.