"as all vet students will graduate without ever having seen a normal whelping"

[Elaine]

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:32:51 -0500
From: lindamore@earthlink.net
Subject: Fw: Re: Breeder assistance needed by NC State Vet School

PS from Cary KC member Adam King, who is a student at the NC vet school -

-----Forwarded Message-----
From: atkking@aol.com
Sent: Nov 7, 2009 11:11 AM
To: lindamore@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Breeder assistance needed by NC State Vet School

And just to let everyone know, this is a lab for my class at the vet school, so I will be present for it too! We would really appreciate anyone's assistance with it, as the more dogs that we have, the more students there will be that actually get hands on experience with these techniques. And if this date doesn't work out for you, I will be sending out e-mails next semester requesting the same thing for our wetlabs for our Reproduction club!

Also, if anyone has a litter that is due any time in the next couple months and wouldn't mind a couple vet students observing (as all vet students will graduate without ever having seen a normal whelping), let me know and I will pass it on to the students. I have had several people ask me about this, so there are people who are interested.

Thanks!
Adam


-----Original Message-----
From: Linda More <lindamore@earthlink.net>
Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 9:51 am
Subject: Fw: Breeder assistance needed by NC State Vet School

The following is self explanatory -

-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Curt Kennedy
Sent: Nov 6, 2009 9:00 PM
To: Linda More
Subject: Fw: Breeder assistance needed by NC State Vet School

Linda,

It was obvious at our last NC Fed. Meeting that AKC Breeders could help the Vet School. This request is one way. I think that this is a good idea.

Please forward to our members. Anyone in the CKC with questions can call me.

Thank you,
Curt Kennedy



-----Forwarded Message-----
From: Steve Wallis
Sent: Nov 6, 2009 6:16 AM
To: NC Federation of Dog Clubs , Members_at_NCRAOA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Breeder assistance needed by NC State Vet School

I have received a request from the NC State vet school to help provide dogs for their theriogenology lab. Dr Mike Whitaker and Dr Scott Bailey spoke at the NC Federation of Dog Clubs meeting in October and indicated they would like to be able to supplement the number of dogs their students have available to study. Yesterday, we received the first of these requests to contact breeders and dog owners who are willing to provide dogs for the following student training:


Study 1: To provide third year vet students more hands on experience in canine semen collection and evaluate vaginal cytology sample collection
Dogs needed: 2-3 males (intact)
several females in heat
Study 2: To demonstrate the use of ultrasound imaging on pregnant bitches and to provide students practice taking ultrasounds
Dogs needed: 2-4 pregnant bitches (30-60 days post-LH)

There is no cost to the dog owners whose dogs participate as this is a veterinary teaching lab.

Date dogs needed: November 11 (next Wednesday)
Location of both studies: NC State Vet School, 4700 Hillsborough St. Raleigh, NC
Contact information: Those dog owners willing to participate should contact Jori at (919) 513-6300 or leave a message specifying if they have a male/female and whether the female is in heat or pregnant.


Lets help train these vet students to provide some of the services dog breeders need. Also, please pass this information on to anyone who might be able top participate.

Thanks,
Steve Wallis

[Elaine]

SO, when you turn to your vet for advice or help on whelping, or a issue related to canine reproduction, what will they base it on? Will their advice be based upon one whelping experience? Is that enough experience to be giving medical advice? Would you use an OBGYN who’d had no Residency Training, and only one experience observing a birth?

I think we need to be aware of the limitations of Veterinary Medical Science. Consumers of veterinary services give vets credit for education, training and knowledge they simply do not have.

And, of course, I think there need to be minimal professional standards for practicing veterinarians. Some of them act like neurotic spoiled children. I could tell horror stories about a guy in Ohio.... geez, from what we've seen and heard, he sets a new all-time low, but his profession, with no miniuml standards, clearly allows him to get away with it. If a medical doctor acted like these idiots, they’d loose their medical license.

[MissMerry]

This absolutely scares me to death ....how in the world do these vets give advice or help with reproduction or whelping - through trial and error ?!?!?

I'll bet I know who you're talking about in Ohio, I have heard some "horror" stores about a guy & some of his practices, and his own breedings ....

[Elaine]

Yep, you’ve probably nailed who I mean… amazing that this kind of guy is even considered “a medical professional”… in my opinion his juvenile antics drag his profession into the gutter... pathetic really. :cool:

[Lou's mom]

Made myself wait awhile before posting. Sorry ladies & gents, it's not just vets. And it's not just litters.



There are approx 30 medical schools in the US who have a Standardized Patient program, whereby the intern may learn 'intimate' pt care skills before graduation.

Yep, most of the newbie doc's have never even seen a pelvic/rectal exam done, much less performed one themselves. Hopefully by the time they get to ob/gyn they have more clinical time, but.....


The local med school here helped pioneer the SP program in '79: wish I'd taken my EMT there for better hands-on pt skills. http://hsc.unm.edu/som/ume/al/sp.shtml

[Elaine]

Made myself wait awhile before posting. Sorry ladies & gents, it's not just vets. And it's not just litters.



There are approx 30 medical schools in the US who have a Standardized Patient program, whereby the intern may learn 'intimate' pt care skills before graduation.

Yep, most of the newbie doc's have never even seen a pelvic/rectal exam done, much less performed one themselves. Hopefully by the time they get to ob/gyn they have more clinical time, but.....


The local med school here helped pioneer the SP program in '79: wish I'd taken my EMT there for better hands-on pt skills. http://hsc.unm.edu/som/ume/al/sp.shtml

Not sure how many medical doctors we actually have on DSNN who might speak to whether or not they had any experience with rectal and pelvic exams before graduating med school. I may be married to our only doctor (and he’s probably delivering a baby right about now). I seem to recall that he had some experience in med school. Certainly by the time he was doing his OBGYN residency he had experience, but by then he’d been a Flight Surgeon and worked in Family Clinics for years.

I recall a time in his first or second year of med school when students had to basically draw topics out of a hat, to take on various roles, one of which was a female having a pelvic exam. Our friend Corey (a father of two) had to play the role of a woman in stirrups. Part of the process was to make Corey wait (in the stirrups) to give him an idea of what a woman might be feeling waiting for a doctor. Corey said it gave him insight that most men will never have. :p:rolleyes:

But back on topic, not sure if there is really much comparison between a medical doctors education and training and a vets. Vet school is three years, and a residency is not mandatory. Medical school is four years, then, after graduation doctors generally do an internship (one year) and then a residency (three to five years depending on the type of residency) before they go out into the wide world to practice. Medical doctors have much more education and training than vets, they focus on only one species and they are held to professional standards of conduct. For example, no medical doctor in his or her right mind will allow an unlicensed person to have access to drugs that could euthanize an animal or human. We recently learned of a situation where a vet supposedly allowed such a thing. The vet may have their license pulled and possibly end up in jail. At the very least, allowing an unlicensed person have a private supply of drugs to euthanizes living creatures is grossly unprofessional.

[RaindanceIGs]

VERY scary! And why my mentor is on speed dial ;) Although I guess I'm fortunate that my vet grew up in a show/breeding household, did the Jr Handler thing and of course his mother made him go to vet school ;) BUT - when it comes to emergencies, there's only one way to gain experience - and I'm going to put my faith in those who have actually gone through it all, not just a couple of litters.

[Elaine]

Boy… I can’t even begin to imagine the problems that would arise with whelping a breed as small as an IG. Not for the faint of heart. :(

When I think of what we all go through to put a puppy on the ground, it’s amazing that we do this. :):rolleyes: We must really love these guys.

[RaindanceIGs]

Boy… I can’t even begin to imagine the problems that would arise with whelping a breed as small as an IG. Not for the faint of heart. :(

When I think of what we all go through to put a puppy on the ground, it’s amazing that we do this. :):rolleyes: We must really love these guys.

Surprisingly a lot LESS reproductive issues in IGs than dobes! All you have to do is look at them and they're pregnant, and it's actually pretty abnormal to have any whelping problems. Kind of amazing though that they don't have more problems, I've had puppies as large as 10oz at birth, which is pretty darn big if the bitch is only 10 or 12 lbs!

[Elaine]

I've had puppies as large as 10oz at birth, which is pretty darn big if the bitch is only 10 or 12 lbs!

Pretty amazing when you think about it. I've seen Great Dane puppies who were 10 oz at birth. I’ve seen Lhasa Apso puppies that were 10 oz or more at birth. It’s interesting that the birth weights of breed that will be so dissimilar at maturity can be so similar at birth.

Don’t know much about IG’s. We hear that they are loving companion dogs, albeit a bit fragile. And I imagine your feed bills are pure heaven. What do they eat, 3-4 kibble a day?

[RaindanceIGs]

Pretty amazing when you think about it. I've seen Great Dane puppies who were 10 oz at birth. I’ve seen Lhasa Apso puppies that were 10 oz or more at birth. It’s interesting that the birth weights of breed that will be so dissimilar at maturity can be so similar at birth.

Don’t know much about IG’s. We hear that they are loving companion dogs, albeit a bit fragile. And I imagine your feed bills are pure heaven. What do they eat, 3-4 kibble a day?

Some eat around 2 cups a day! They're athletes these small sighthounds :) They can be fragile, but mostly due to their long skinny legs being able to get caught in weird things while they're zipping by at 25 mph, or catapulting themselves higher/faster than any sane large breed of dog! I have several that compete in lure coursing and amateur straight & oval racing, keeping them in peak condition goes a long way to prevent injuries.

DC Gio - DC meaning AKC CH and AKC FC (lure coursing field champion)
http://www.raindanceigs.com/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_gioHRVHA051207.jpg

[Elaine]

Love this photo… what an amazing little athlete!!! Want to mention that you have been a very welcome addition to DSNN…. we really love your input. Btw, we were thinking of adding Services to the Sales page. I know breeders are always looking for people to do their websites… is that something you are interested in doing?