Puppy Silhouettes - what do you see?

[Elaine]

Not sure how this is going to go… but I thought I’d run this up the flag pole….

Here is a litter of Doberman puppies at 6 weeks and 7 weeks… the puppies are in the same order each week... and these are NOT Logres puppies.

The Doberman Breed standard calls for a square balanced dog with a level top line, with well angulated shoulders and a rear to match. At this age I think you can see the adult dog.

What do you see?

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/6-wks-montagebw.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/7wks-montagebw.jpg

[RaindanceIGs]

I don't evaluate my litters at 6 or 7 weeks, as I've found the only time my puppies are proportionately similar to what they will mature to as adults is at 8 weeks and 8 weeks only. Now I understand that in some lines this can vary, but I've found that Pat Hastings' insights have been very accurate. All of my litters I take pics every weeks (although occasionally every 2 weeks after the age of 8 weeks) - and every time I can go back to the 8 week old pic when compared to the other pics and it's always the most accurate one.

So is the question, which of these puppies would mature to be the best or most correct? If that's the case, I don't really know if you can determine that from the photos at these ages? Even if a puppy is square/compact/balanced at 6/7 weeks does not mean it will be at 8 weeks or an adult. Just look at the pups from 6/7 weeks, some of them are square at one age and in the next or prev photo appear long. The longer ones could have grown leg length at 8 weeks, and the ones that appeared more short backed could appear long in the next set. Thoughts?

[Elaine]

but I've found that Pat Hastings' insights have been very accurate.

I’ve known Pat for decades… seen lots of those Puppy Evals, going back to the mid 1980's, and back to when she and Bob did their original Tricks of the Trade seminars (which used to actually describe what they were doing, but that was before the Louise Van Alstyne Trial Board, and the Chapter 11. Section 8 mess.). Over the years I've seen them do lots of breeds. Other than very basic things, I can’t really recall when they got it right… and I’ve seen lots of times they got is spectacularly wrong.

They did insist on 8 weeks, not more than 2 days earlier or two days later, but eight weeks dead on. I think their approach suits breeders who have absolutely no framework for evaluating what they’ve bred, and in that respect, it is useful, but I think that what is missing is that Bob and Pat were not breeders per se; they were handlers.

Ever think about what Pat's kennel name is? I believe that it's ERBob. I think if we all thought long and hard we'd be pushed to recall a single ER BOB dog, much less generations of ER Bob dogs that positively influenced the breed. Most of us who have been in dogs a long time take Pat with a grain of salt… she is useful if you have no systematic approach to evaluating you puppies, but not much more.

IF the puppy is properly stacked (and that is THE huge IF) and if the photographer is properly positioned, photos at 5, 6 and 7 weeks are very useful.. and a puppy at these ages will be what they are at maturity. But, you have to be willing to look at all your photos, including your "out takes" with objectivity. That may be a stumbling block for some. If you've taken 100 photos and only one looks good to you, chances are that the other 99 show all the faults you will see in the adult.

First and foremost, in the litter above I see consistent quality. It is not a fluke that the entire litter is this good. Mom and dad going back generations were excellent too. I see correct balance… I see necks of good length that flow smoothly into excellent shoulders... and good return of the upper arm (dogs that can stand correctly over themselves). I see fill in front of the elbows (not a pigeon breast, with that ugly - too high and too prominent posternum -the cuts away in a line to behind the elbows). I see well balanced rears with strong, broad upper thighs and good bend of stifle. I see good bone and substance. I see excellent top lines and very good loin connections. To my eye there is one puppy that literally jumps off the page, he is that impressive. I do not know what happened to him. I have seen one of these puppies at maturity… he is what he was at 6 and 7 weeks.

[doberdogsfd]

Since this litter was our first I am not going to go on about all my experience with grading litters, BUT...what I will say is,at 6 weeks old I was pretty able to look at this litter and see structure.
I do agree that at 8 weeks they typically look like what they will when they are mature.
Not being a novice Doberman person (or dog person) at all, I have had several puppies. Shown several and had the privilage of having very good dogs.

I will use these guys as my reason for the 8 week assestment.
Vaako was 5 months when he came to us. When I look at his 8 week pics....I see him today.....correct and beautiful.
Flex was 12 weeks and his 8 weeks pics are what he was when he finished at 15 months.....the same as Vaako...correct and beautiful.

With refrence to our Vaako/Emma litter, at 6 weeks Rowan was what Rowan is today. Square, beautiful head, smooth, good lay back, good length of neck , nice depth of chest and a good rear. A very balanced puppy bitch.
Rowan held what she was through out her growth stages as a 6 week old to today .

I will use Phoebe's Lincoln as an example of what can change between 6 weeks and today...12 months.
Lincoln always had the most spectacular head. Stunning. If you look at the photos on his thread here on DSNN (and our site if our web manager ever get's it finished : ( ) ......there is no denying he maintained that.

Lincoln was square,nice shoulder, incredible chest,a bit more angle behind then the others and a bit less length of neck then I really like to see.
He was the biggest guy in the litter.

Today he is still a big guy and he has blossomed into this lovely elegant 12 month old puppy.
His length of neck is beautiful, neck into shoulders smooth, he has grown into his angle behind, topline is solid and correct.
Here is a puppy that was kind of a "sleeper". We have watched him grow and change into this really promising and beautuful young dog.

So, I think the potential for change at certain stages is there. How specific lines grow out and develope plays a part I think.
The structure has to be there but how a puppy is raised and conditioned through it's growth stages has a lot to do with it also.
I do tend to agree with the 8 week assestment.....it seems to be proven time and time again.

This is an excellent topic! I love the idea that we can perhaps get line of sight on what others base their thoughts, processes and beliefs on.

Look forward to others posting to it!

Cheryl

[Elaine]

Was thinking about the litter above… and why they didn’t set the world on fire… I remember loving the red male (bottom left) and we also liked the black male (second from the top on the left). I liked most every pup in the litter, but those two stood out for me, especially the red boy. At the time I remember thinking, "Boy, this breeder[s] must have an extraordinarily high standard for excellence that they are not over the moon with these puppies." I don't think the breeder[s] kept any of them, at least one was shown, not sure of any of the details. If you look closely you will notice that several of their tails were docked at one vertebrae, which spoiled the overall outline a bit. That may have had something to do with how they were placed. If I could go back in time (or if I were just starting in dogs), I'd take any of them, especially the red boy... in a heart beat.

About choosing at 6 weeks, I am not advocating that we purchase based upon assessments made at that age. Rather, in my experience, you will see early on what you see when they are adults... it was there all along. Of course, you have to know what you are looking at for your breed, and it varies. In Dobermans, many of us crop at seven and a half or eight weeks (and we don’t like to take photos of the puppies with stitches etc.), so you have to look before and after. After about 10 weeks I usually like to put a bag over their heads and ignore them till they are about a year old.

Btw, if you do not have a great camera and camera person, set up a mirror by your grooming table and look at the reflection of the puppies in the mirror as you stack them. That will give you a good idea of what you have.

[doberdogsfd]

You and I picked the same two puppies out of the line up.



Cheryl

[Elaine]

I’d love to see him now. One of our members, who does not post often, might know where he is, I believe she owns the black boy that I like. :)

[RaindanceIGs]

I’ve known Pat for decades… seen lots of those Puppy Evals, going back to the mid 1980's, and back to when she and Bob did their original Tricks of the Trade seminars (which used to actually describe what they were doing, but that was before the Louise Van Alstyne Trial Board, and the Chapter 11. Section 8 mess.). Over the years I've seen them do lots of breeds. Other than very basic things, I can’t really recall when they got it right… and I’ve seen lots of times they got is spectacularly wrong.

They did insist on 8 weeks, not more than 2 days earlier or two days later, but eight weeks dead on. I think their approach suits breeders who have absolutely no framework for evaluating what they’ve bred, and in that respect, it is useful, but I think that what is missing is that Bob and Pat were not breeders per se; they were handlers.

Ever think about what Pat's kennel name is? I believe that it's ERBob. I think if we all thought long and hard we'd be pushed to recall a single ER BOB dog, much less generations of ER Bob dogs that positively influenced the breed. Most of us who have been in dogs a long time take Pat with a grain of salt… she is useful if you have no systematic approach to evaluating you puppies, but not much more.

IF the puppy is properly stacked (and that is THE huge IF) and if the photographer is properly positioned, photos at 5, 6 and 7 weeks are very useful.. and a puppy at these ages will be what they are at maturity. But, you have to be willing to look at all your photos, including your "out takes" with objectivity. That may be a stumbling block for some. If you've taken 100 photos and only one looks good to you, chances are that the other 99 show all the faults you will see in the adult.

First and foremost, in the litter above I see consistent quality. It is not a fluke that the entire litter is this good. Mom and dad going back generations were excellent too. I see correct balance… I see necks of good length that flow smoothly into excellent shoulders... and good return of the upper arm (dogs that can stand correctly over themselves). I see fill in front of the elbows (not a pigeon breast, with that ugly - too high and too prominent posternum -the cuts away in a line to behind the elbows). I see well balanced rears with strong, broad upper thighs and good bend of stifle. I see good bone and substance. I see excellent top lines and very good loin connections. To my eye there is one puppy that literally jumps off the page, he is that impressive. I do not know what happened to him. I have seen one of these puppies at maturity… he is what he was at 6 and 7 weeks.

I agree in the sense that pics at 6 and 7 weeks aren't completely useless, but if it's a line that I'm not experienced with there's really no way that I am going to look at them at any other age than 8 weeks. Have seen firsthand with my own litters how drastically puppies can change during that time, while other puppies basically look about the same proportionately every week through 8 weeks and mature out that way. I don't think it's a matter of not having an eye for puppies younger than 8 weeks, plenty of puppies really do change. And also the thing too about looking seriously at puppies before the age of 8 weeks is you may already decide in your mind that you have a bias either for or against a puppy, and come 8 weeks and that puppy has drastically changed - sometimes you don't notice since you still see that puppy in your head the way he looked a week ago.

A more interesting exercise though would be adult pics of these pups to follow the puppy pics :)

[Elaine]

I would love to see examples of puppies that changed… and by that I mean - good quailty stacked photos of the puppy at 5 -7 weeks and at maturity (rather than anecdotal impressions). I think we can all learn from this exercise. :)

I am in the process of compiling photos of 15 puppies… taken from about 5 weeks through to adulthood. This will take time... I am working from thousands of photos, selected down to about 150 (about ten photos for each dog), that all have to be cropped and compressed. I'm working on this project in between my other "projects. ;) The photos will be arranged in strips for each puppy, showing a progression over time. I will remove some identifying marks/body parts so we can focus on the structure and not on who the dog is / who owns him/her. I think you will be surprised by what you can see at 5 -7 weeks. It is all there, if you know what you are looking at.

Now, for specific Breed type, especially related to unique movement required of certain breeds, I would not want to be evaluating at 5-7 weeks (e.g., for the “ high stepping” movement that should be treasured in Italian Greyhounds… or the “great elasticity and spring” required of Afghans Hounds). Those characteristics would develop with maturity, though they are the reflection of the correlation between form and function. But for a breed as straight forward as a Doberman... it's pretty much all there, very early on (of course, a breeder needs to wait for testicles to drop and teeth to come in and things like that).

[RaindanceIGs]

I would love to see examples of puppies that changed… and by that I mean - good quailty stacked photos of the puppy at 5 -7 weeks and at maturity (rather than anecdotal impressions). I think we can all learn from this exercise. :)

I am in the process of compiling photos of 15 puppies… taken from about 5 weeks through to adulthood. This will take time... I am working from thousands of photos, selected down to about 150 (about ten photos for each dog), that all have to be cropped and compressed. I'm working on this project in between my other "projects. ;) The photos will be arranged in strips for each puppy, showing a progression over time. I will remove some identifying marks/body parts so we can focus on the structure and not on who the dog is / who owns him/her. I think you will be surprised by what you can see at 5 -7 weeks. It is all there, if you know what you are looking at.

Now, for specific Breed type, especially related to unique movement required of certain breeds, I would not want to be evaluating at 5-7 weeks (e.g., for the “ high stepping” movement that should be treasured in Italian Greyhounds… or the “great elasticity and spring” required of Afghans Hounds). Those characteristics would develop with maturity, though they are the reflection of the correlation between form and function. But for a breed as straight forward as a Doberman... it's pretty much all there, very early on (of course, a breeder needs to wait for testicles to drop and teeth to come in and things like that).

Actually the components that enable the Italian Greyhounds to have correct break of pastern at a trot are usually as evident at a young age as other things, such as shoulders set obliquely on rib cage, angle of shoulder, and angle of upper arm etc. Course, you won't be able to see those things working until the pup is a bit older as all IG puppies move the same - FAST! ;)

I suppose you can argue all you want that you can accurately pick puppies at age 5-7 weeks, not saying it is impossible or that you can't, heck many of the nicest dogs I have bred I have picked from BIRTH - my point is that puppies CAN and OFTEN change in the weeks before and after 8 weeks of age, and if they happen to be the puppies that grow in spurts it's possible they are not proportionately the same at those other ages - which is why I will not commit to anything until the age of 8 weeks. I've seen it happen over and over. If anyone cares to see an Italian Greyhound experiment I can do the same project with my 10 or 11 litters of Italian Greyhounds, from ages 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12 weeks and adulthood.

But, I'd definitely love to see series of pics of puppies and then them at adulthood. I've evaluated dozens of litters, but it doesn't really mean much until you can see those dogs again at adults ;) I can pick out what I like/dislike about all the pups above, but how would I know if that's how they matured? ;) I could say I love that such-and-such puppy is nice and square, but if it matured to be a freight train then would this really be a learning exercise without that knowledge?

[Elaine]

shoulders set obliquely on rib cage
Now there's terminology that breeders can debate forever:rolleyes:

Actually the components that enable the Italian Greyhounds to have correct break of pastern at a trot are usually as evident at a young age as other things, such as shoulders set obliquely on rib cage, angle of shoulder, and angle of upper arm etc.

...

I could say I love that such-and-such puppy is nice and square, but if it matured to be a freight train then would this really be a learning exercise without that knowledge?

From your post is seems that we sort of agree that the basic form is there all along.

We do not pick our puppies at 5-7 weeks, but I can go back and look at our photos and those of breeders I've known over the years- from 5-7 weeks and see then what I see in the adult. If you have a series of good photos (taken at the right angle) of well stacked puppies (who are set up properly) you can probably do the same. But I am not suggesting that the proportions of a 5-7 week old puppy are the exact proportions the dog will have at maturity (a 5 week old puppy has the proportions of a 5 week old puppy), nor does a 5 -7 week old animal has all the characteristics (e.g. muscle tone, development of the chest, movement etc, ) of an adult… just that the overall structure is there.

I don’t see length of back changing dramatically. Rather, in my experience, if you breed to a long dog, you’re going to get long dogs (which is great for a Basset Hound, but incorrect for a breed like a Doberman that is supposed to be square). The only advantage of a long back is that you will be less likely to see interference in the foot fall, because the dog is long enough to accommodate being out of balance, e.g., over angulated behind, but it’s no great accomplishment to have a long dog with sound movement. The challenge (in Dobermans) is to breed a correctly square dog, that is sound and has reach and drive. And if that length of back is in the loin, you’re going to get a long weak back which is something I’d run from in a square breed. You’ll be looking at that length for generations to come. Just like if you breed to a dog with long weak pasterns or a steep croup, you’re probably going to be looking at those faults for generations to come.

30 plus years ago the breeders I knew had no systematic way to evaluate their puppies. They simply watched them running around, and chose based on “gut and emotion.” Some did a better job than others, but lacking any systematic process for objective evaluation, they got it wrong a good deal of the time. Their rationalization for getting it wrong was usually, “Puppies change.” Even back then I could see there was no credible process for evaluation. But then, many of these breeders hadn’t a clue how to objectively evaluate their adult dogs (in the context of correct structure), so it was no wonder puppies were such a challenge for them. (The really bad news, most of these guys are now judges :( :mad:)

It was pure joy to see breeder’s like Faye Straus’ (Sherluck) and Jody Podino’s (Wingate) montages of puppy photos, of stacked puppies, taken at the same age and cropped for uniformity. I recall the montage of the litter for Gloria (Ch. Wingate’s Miami Sound Machine) http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=1129 and montages of litters from her littermate Riot (CH. Wingate’s Quiet Riot) bred to Ch. Miss Moneypenny. Riot is in the pedigree of every owner of a Dagger (Ch. Beaulane's Hot Topic / Monty (Ch. Eastwick’s Meadow Monster) descendant. http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=273 Riot and Gloria’s litters date back to 1989. Among the many attributes of these dogs, they were (for the most part) square, with good bone and substance, strong level toplines, good loin connections and very good tail sets. While I am not a huge fan of going backwards to use frozen semen of dogs from twenty plus years ago, I can see why Faye did so with Castle Rock in 2005. http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=2992 I still have the photos of these litters around here somewhere. Easier to access are photos (not great) of our 2004 Kafka-Liz litter (which are on a thread at the bottom of the LITTER forum). You can see the puppies from 5-6 weeks through adulthood. It is all there.

Btw, I would love to see ANY photos of stacked baby IG's. I bet they are adorable. Closest I’ve come to seeing that phenotype is visiting Debbie Butts Sporting Field kennel back in the mid 1990's, when she and her mother were over by Valley Forge. PA. I love the look... love the dish face of baby Whippets. I'd guess that IG's are similar.

[Akshay_Bondre]

Wow! This is an awesome topic idea.
I don't know whether I should be posting here since I am not as proficient as you guys but wanted to ask one question..

In the second row.. Elaine likes the 1st male (left) than the 2nd (right).
Why? The one on the right somehow looks pleasing to my eyes. He seems to have better chest and his hinds look proportional. Whereas, the one on the left seems to have too heavy hinds to go along with his body.

I liked the Red one too :D (yay!)

Though, the 6 weeks pics don't show much to evaluate anything.