Selling Dogs to India

[Elaine]

We’ve probably all seen high profile kennel names in India, including Cambria and Black Shadow. And many of us with websites get approached frequently about selling dogs to India. So my question, for all of you, including those of you who live in India, is: Would you sell a dog to India? If so why? If not why?

[doberdogsfd]

Being one of the individuals that has a website and is approached fairly regularly to sell a puppy to other countries, I think the questions should be: " What country would you sell a puppy or semen to and why or why not?"

I am not comfortable with singling out just one country. I really think an understanding of where and why across the board would be very interesting.

Inquiring minds and all that......
Cheryl

[Elaine]

Actually, I think India is unique in several respects... one of which is that we experience significant interest from India, more so by far than any other country. One reason may be that they still allow docked and cropped dogs in India. Our concerns about India include what sort of veterinary medical care the dog would receive. Also, we wonder who does the tail docks and ear crops over there. We have concerns about the pet market in India for the offspring of dogs that are sold over there, etc.

As for shipping semen to India, we have never had a request for it, can’t imagine that they have vets who would be successful with it… and it’s expensive, with no guarantees of success. Can’t imagine what the cost would be in 2010 to get a tank of frozen semen to India, but when we imported equine semen from Germany in 2004 the tank, charging the tank, and having it hand carried through customs at JFK (which is required by Federal law) cost about $4K. The semen inside the tank was roughly $12K, but the cost of tank, shipping and customs would have been the same regadless of how expensive the semen inside was. You could buy a dog for the cost of shipping frozen semen.

[Minka]

The use of Frozen Semen is not allowed in India. I hate to sound like a wet blanket but this topic's been done before

[Elaine]

And when it was done before Abe, how did it get resolved... from your point of view? Was there a meeting of the minds about the concerns we all have? Far as I know, no one has changed their minds from where we were a year or so ago. Arthur will not sell to India, Janice and Roger will not sell to India, I doubt Bob and Cheryl will sell to India.

We’ve had five emails and four calls from India in the last 48 hours. I wonder… are any breeders out there any closer to feeling comfortable selling a dog to India.

[Minka]

Dialogue is only productive if'the parties involved have open minds

[Elaine]

Not sure I entirely agree, but arguendo, what do you think will open people’s minds?

At the moment we seem to be stuck in the “deep slumber of decided opinion.” Social psychology recognizes this truth about human nature: opinions once formed are near impossible to change. Even the idea of selling overseas is a tough boulder to push up the hill.

There is the saying, ‘”you can’t unring the bell.” Sometimes a narrative will open a crack in the door. Since we are not the ones soliciting that dogs go to India, we have no reason to promote said agenda. If selling to India is ever going to be widely viewed in a positive manner, the shift in perception is going to have to come from someone in India.

DSNN is the first forum to actively seek membership and input of dog enthusiasts from abroad. We would love to have a better (more accurate) understanding of what a dog's life in India entails. Please do not take this the wrong way (no more calls, please ;)), but I am open to the idea of selling over seas, to China or India… but I'd need to know a lot more about what that means for the dog, and the dog's offspring.

Abe, you, Michelle and Minaz are as articulate as any members we have. If US breeders here would verbalize their concerns, possibly you all could address them in a manner that facilitates a deeper understanding of what is truly a "dog's life" in India.

I think we can all understand and agree that you love your dogs, that is a given. I suspect that breeders are concerned about diet, access to training, basic living conditions and veterinary care (for both mundane things like vaccination protocols, reproduction, and spay /neuter, and more complicated chronic health problems that require skill, experience and residency training to properly diagnose, and long-term management by skilled veterinary professionals and staff, with ready access to current testing and other state-of-the-art technology). How much land you have to exercise the dog? How you place your litters? Who does your tail docks and ear crops? Who does your after care of your ears? What sorts of Breed Rescues and Shelters do you have in your country? How are dogs treated by the general public and authorities if they happen to get loose?

[doberdogsfd]

Elaine makes a very good point regarding wanting a better understanding of vet care, diet and all that.

I have a friend of mine that is a vet in Columbo, so I have a good understanding of what obsticles are faced. She had opened a clinic to assist folks who could not afford care for their pets. Nali is a pioneer in veterinary medicine in her country. She also is one of the best people I have ever known in my life.
She had always told me that India and Sri Lanka suffer from strays very badly. Dogs turned out into the streets and no spay/neuter program to to curb the over population.
Nali would spay or neuter for free. Sometimes receiving rice or chickens in exchange for her services. :)
A couple of her own pets came from the street.

There are cultural differences that we are trying to grasp.

With some countries, it is the government and what is done to dogs that will keep us from sending dogs there.

We were contacted by many people to get of hold of our boys, Tala and Pagan. We weren't prepared to let them go to another country.
We are prepared for open dialogue and to learn from our friends from other countries.

In regards to the frozen semen Elaine, it really wasn't a question of the costs and challenges faced but more of the idea would you do it.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

I guess you are speaking of theory and I am speaking from a more practical perspective, given that we have imported frozen semen. Inour expereince, it is risky and expensive. Seems to me that importing a specific dog would be a better strategy.

Categorically no, we would not sell our dogs semen to India, but that is a moot point because according to Abe, it is not legal to do so, if by "not allowed he means "not legal."
The use of Frozen Semen is not allowed in India.

[doberdogsfd]

Yep...India is off the board. How about China?

[Elaine]

Yep...India is off the board. How about China?

As you know, we have had a dialog with Michelle about Hotline. At this point in time we are not sending Hotline anywhere. But we are not categorically opposed to sending a dog over seas. We know of many people who have been to China, sometimes as dog show judges, who report back very favorably. Our concerns about China are the same as yours. The reason we're tempted is that Michelle is clearly a bright knowledgeable dog person.. if we lived in the same country there is no question that we'd sell to her. Same with Abe, and others. We are a group united by our passion and love of the breed, but divided by culture and politics.

[Athy]

We are a group united by our passion and love of the breed, but divided by culture and politics.

Well said.

Athy

[doberdogsfd]

I am sure everything is bright and shiney at a dog show...that is how the goverment wants it to be.

I will post the links to the real story as to how dogs are treated in China. They are hard to watch. I am speaking directly about how the goverment views them.....not anyone who has posted here.

Having friends that are living and working there and a friend who's son is married to a national and living there. We have kind of a grass roots idea of how it really goes.

It is a Communist country. Censorship is alive and well.
You see what they want you to see.

Cheryl

[Minka]

I find myself torn between saying "crap"rhetoric for the sake of rhetoric what a waste of time & the oh so entertaining prospect of engaging in dialogue with E! when she is on the rampage.

1. Let's exclude Bob & Cheryl from the consideration set - they have had one litter , they have had to overcome enough hudles to have that one litter - I would not call them anything but open minded . From what I understand they received a lot of lucrative offers which they evaluated and turned down on a case by case basis.

2. Diet /Access to training & living conditions all vary depending on the owner - just like they would vary in the USA or any other part of the world - A responsible breeder would ask the question on a case by case basis & look to conduct their own due dilligence

3 . Vet Care - finding the right Vet is a problem anywhere in the world
Walk into any residency program in the US - walk into your hospitals how many of your surgeons are are Asian or Indian. My city has a college that is part of a university program - now how good the curiculum is compared to the US is something I cant comment on
http://www.thekci.org/fame.aspx - The 1980/81 Dog of the year -Sanscraintes Ultimate Dream -(Bred in India ) has cropped ears, I know of two vets in my city who do it ( and I've been out of the show scene for 10 +) , you can get the vet to draw out the template make changes and watch while he cuts (if you can stand the sight of blood)'

4. The Blue cross has a program where they take in strays and neuter them- strays are a problem - I've got 3 ex strays at home - they are fantastic dogs - genetically healthy, easy to maintain and they make a lot of noise when someones at the gate

Buying a dog from the US is not a problem- its all about the benjamins- buying the right dog with the right people involved however is a different cup of tea
for the breeder that sells - please do your due dilligence on the person your selling to and the place - do not tar everybody with the same brush

[Elaine]

Abe, you have been "out of the show scene for 10 + " years. How old are you?

[Akshay_Bondre]

How does one keep his / her dogs depends on that person more than the country he belongs to. There cannot be a generic answer, especially about India. There is one thing though, Indians don't treat dogs like humans and most families that I know take good care of their dogs. Usually the dog stays out of the house, guards the house and gets good exercise and food. Isn't that what the dogs were supposed to do anyway? Again, I don't know much about how kennel owners keep their dogs, but I am guessing big kennel names from USA and UK like Black Shadow, Charleston, Akidosan, Altobello, Pride of Russia, Sant Kreal.. etc would be as concerned as any of you guys about their dogs and won't send their dogs to India if Indians did not keep their dogs well.

The stories about breeders not looking after their dogs well have been always doing the rounds and I am pretty sure some of them were true. But, does that mean every Indian would do that to his dog? Its laughable argument if you ask me. Moreover, I am more than sure, rescues in USA are not in existence for nothing, the fact that they are there proves there are dogs being ill-treated in your country too. We, as a family have been always having dogs, on farms and in the city. All our dogs lived 10 + years. None of them were show dogs. So, if tomorrow, I feel like spending my fortune (1$ = Rs 48 ) and importing a quality dog, I get ignored because of my country? How logical does it sound?

Vets, I can't really comment because, the dogs that I had always got a good veterinary service. Never did they suffer from something which did not go untreated. But again, I don't know what all is supposed to be taken in consideration here, so can't comment. My dog was cropped by a Vet in my city, he has a decent crop if not all that great.

There are NGO's in my city who help stray dogs or dogs that have been abandoned get home. This is a link to one of them.. http://www.resqct.org/

[doberdogsfd]

Akshay and Abe,

I think you both make some very valid points. I will agree that there are people in every country that see these dogs as commodities and nothing more. There are cultural differences, in India dogs are not seen as "people" or part of the family that is not unique to India many Americans have the same view. There are crappy homes in the U.S. just like there are crappy homes in India or any country. One thing I do not think that India has to deal with is governmental issues as China does.

Elaine makes a point when she says that we are all here because we have a passion for this noble breed. Cheryl and I have turned down many homes some not far from where we live because they were not the type of home we wanted for our dogs. For us the most important thing is that the dogs we place are valued family members and companions first and foremost. Then they are show prospects, obedience competitors etc.

We know there are great homes in India as well as China. Michelle is an example of someone who is an advocate for change in her country and working on behalf of the Doberman. We do not know Michelle but what we have seen so far tells us she is a good dog person. From the interactions we have had with you Akshay and Abe you both seem to be good dog people. We wish Abe lived closer as we have gotten to know him well and would place a dog with him. We are just now getting to know you Akshay so the jury is still out but leaning in your favor. :p

Here is what stops us from selling overseas right now, who knows what the future holds, it is very difficult to enforce a contract, follow up on and check on the dogs. For example, if we thought there was an issue in the way Phoebe was caring for Lincoln we can jump in the car and be at her house in about 4 hours. Now Phoebe is a dream home for Lincoln, she takes great care of him there are no issues and we know there will never be. We get to see Lincoln every couple of months, it is ideal. We wish Phoebe and Mike lived closer so we could hang out more. If we sold a dog to India it is not that easy. I could grab Lincoln and put him the truck and drive home. If there was an issue in India, China, Italy, Germany, Finland it could not be done. We would lose all recourse.

I do think that there are breeders who sell to any country. Some really do care about where the dogs go and others see huge dollar signs and don't give a damn who gets the dog. They want the Money and that is that. This creates another problem, the price of the dog is so high that the purchaser is for lack of a better word forced to find a way to recover some of the money they have invested, which in turn cause the dog to be bred too much, sold off to someone else etc. Here we can stop that from happening with the contracts we have. I think it is crazy when some of the breeders here charge insane amounts of money to send a dog to India. But in some cases they are paying their bills by breeding and selling puppies.

Vet care is a subjective thing. For some the amount one spends equals how much one loves their dog. Cheryl and I are fortunate that we live in area we have some of the best Vet care on the planet. We have specialist for everything. Good Vet care means a competent vet and the dog never pays for a Vets incompetence.

We do not dismiss anyone out of pocket, it is not our style. I will say though that many of the people that have contacted us are all about being our friends and wanting to get to know us right up and to the point we say no you cannot have a puppy then they are gone baby gone. These are both American and foreign buyers. We have been offered big money for Vaako; I think $35k was the largest offer. It is a compliment at first...then when the person cannot understand that Vaako is not for sale and there is not enough money on the planet to buy him it gets annoying. We had big money offers for several of the puppies also. Some folks were great and we still have contact with them. Others have fallen from the face of the earth.

One thing I will say is that most of the Indians that have contacted us are the most persistent individuals we have dealt with. Some do not take "No" for an answer. I will say that they have been some of the most pleasant and respectful people we have dealt with. We have enjoyed learning about them and your country. We have maintained dialog with several people. We love the questions and sharing ideas with them.

I do not think that ones country of birth should be the only factor in determining placing a dog but it does factor in. We will never sell a dog to Germany due to legislation around breeding and limitation on litter size. I am sure we have missed out on a few good homes and some that we missed out on were actually a blessing in disguise. The U.S. is not perfect Michael Vick is proof of that.

I will end by saying that right now we do not sell outside of the U.S. and we are very select about who in the U.S. gets a dog but we are open minded and want to talk to "good dog People" from all over the world.

Bob

[andyhilt27]

One point to make about China. There is no middle class there. It is very cut and dry on who can support a dog(s). That is certainly not to say that money is the sole factor. I made a great living in my former career....I would definitely consider myself a middle class blue collar worker(I always will be, I like to work with my hands and mind equally...not to say I won't be filthy rich later in life). However, If I only had enough funds to feed my family I would not own a breed that eats a lot and may require extensive vet care. So when considering China, I don't think anyone would contact you if they could not support such a dog financially.

I think that there is more of a grey area when finding good homes in the U.S., India, Mexico, Canada, etc. etc. in terms of money. But that is only one aspect to it. I for one would not sell a dog to the Queen of England. It is too far away. There is a dog I bred that is in Texas (long story how he ended up there) that I want to see badly, I have not seen him since he left here.

[doberdogsfd]

It isn't the money or the people Andy. It is the government.

If they decided you aren't having the dogs.....you do not have them. There is no recourse.
I have video of police beating dogs to death in the streets in front of children because it was decided they weren't to have them or it was over the limit. Money or no money...you do what you are told.

Michelle admits somewhat reluctantly about the fact that the government " "frowns" upon the keeping of dogs. She also admits to there being a limit on dogs.

Michelle seems like a lovely woman and somone we are interested in getting to know better. She and her friends appear to being trying to educate the people. The government is another thing.

I will share privately some of the tragedies that a very well connected "friend" has seen and has experienced there. I do not have gossip and rumor, it is fact and first hand witness.

I will do it privately.

Cheryl

[Minka]

I promised myself that I wouldn't get drawn into this discussion because at the end of the day the one risk you cannot mitigate is "recourse "- its such a banking term and I was plesantly suprised when Bob used it.
lets clarify a minor point -
my dogs are a part of my family once they come in through those gates they do not leave regardless of pedigree.

[Elaine]

We have been offered big money for Vaako; I think $35k was the largest offer. It is a compliment at first...then when the person cannot understand that Vaako is not for sale and there is not enough money on the planet to buy him it gets annoying. Bob

I agree with many of the points you made in your post Bob, and a $35K offer is flattering (btw, you forgot to mention it to us ;) ), but I really want to be clear about this, one reason you can not sell Vaako is that you do not own him outright; we co-own Vaako with you. When you purchased your co-ownership interest in him, our agreement included many things, one of which is that he will not be bred to any outside bitches (those you do not own), unless we (Dr. Greenwood and I) agree to the breeding, and if for any reason you wished to part with Vaako (Ch. Logres’ Feinbrand), he must come back to us. So, one very big reason that Vaako is not available for sale is because WE will never agree to it, and we own him too! :)

[doberdogsfd]

Elaine,

I am sure the fact that you are sleep deprived has made you forget a few things. First being that you are the one who forwarded the initial email from the Korean man who made the offer. Secondly we did have dialog on the phone about it and we had a good laugh about the fact that he missed the point that there was not enough money in the world to buy Vaako he is our son. I think we talked about asking for $250,000 thousand dollars or something ridiculous like that to have some fun with the man. Third the post I made had nothing to do with you and Arthur, do you really think that it got far enough for that to factor in to our decision or that there was even anything to decide? Do you think for one second we even considered selling Vaako? If you really thought that you do not know us at all and the last 3 years have been a joke. The point was when a dog comes to us and joins our family they do not leave for any reason except their death. The point was to share our philosophy on owning a dog. Had Vaako not turned out, had he not been unable to finish he would have lived the rest of his life sleeping in our bed, lying on our sofa being a valued family member. You know this which is why it is very insulting that you would post something like this. It appears that you are trying to put us in our "place" and diminish how we feel about Vaako or it really is the lack of sleep and you did not realize how the post sounds. Everyone knows you and Arthur co-own Vaako with us, no big secret there. We never tried to hide that. However I am going to clear up a point or two and then we will have no further discussion of our personal business on DSNN. We do not have a contract, we did not buy an interest in Vaako he is not a business and we did not buy stock, we bought the dog on a co-ownership with you and Arthur. We did not agree to seek your permission to breed Vaako, what we agreed on is that we would all discuss things and that you would have access to his reproductive ability. Obviously Cheryl and I have great respect for your ability to pick breeding pairs and have sought your advice/knowledge in the past and will in future we have told you this on numerous occasions. As you well know; you, Cheryl and I have had many discussion regarding breeding Vaako and that sometimes in a co-ownership all of the parties might not agree, so there might come a point that one party might have to say I/We don't agree with this but I/We will support it and the next time I/We will have the majority say. Sound familiar? I think you are the one who made the statement first.

Elaine we have had a very good thing going in our relationship and our co-ownership, we have built a friendship as well which Cheryl and I value, you know us very well and know that we have NEVER and will NEVER do anything that is not in the best interest of Vaako or any of our dogs, you have said this to us repeatedly. I seem to remember something about us being the GOLD STANDARD of Co-Ownership and the GOLD STANDARD as a home because we always put what is best for the dog first!!! That fact is what makes your post offensive to us. There was no need for it. If you wish to discuss this further pick up the phone!

Bob

[Elaine]

Elaine,

I am sure the fact that you are sleep deprived has made you forget a few things. First being that you are the one who forwarded the initial email from the Korean man who made the offer. Secondly we did have dialog on the phone about it and we had a good laugh about the fact that he missed the point that there was not enough money in the world to buy Vaako he is our son. I think we talked about asking for $250,000 thousand dollars or something ridiculous like that to have some fun with the man. Third the post I made had nothing to do with you and Arthur, do you really think that it got far enough for that to factor in to our decision or that there was even anything to decide? Do you think for one second we even considered selling Vaako? If you really thought that you do not know us at all and the last 3 years have been a joke. The point was when a dog comes to us and joins our family they do not leave for any reason except their death. The point was to share our philosophy on owning a dog. Had Vaako not turned out, had he not been unable to finish he would have lived the rest of his life sleeping in our bed, lying on our sofa being a valued family member. You know this which is why it is very insulting that you would post something like this. It appears that you are trying to put us in our "place" and diminish how we feel about Vaako or it really is the lack of sleep and you did not realize how the post sounds. Everyone knows you and Arthur co-own Vaako with us, no big secret there. We never tried to hide that. However I am going to clear up a point or two and then we will have no further discussion of our personal business on DSNN. We do not have a contract, we did not buy an interest in Vaako he is not a business and we did not buy stock, we bought the dog on a co-ownership with you and Arthur. We did not agree to seek your permission to breed Vaako, what we agreed on is that we would all discuss things and that you would have access to his reproductive ability. Obviously Cheryl and I have great respect for your ability to pick breeding pairs and have sought your advice/knowledge in the past and will in future we have told you this on numerous occasions. As you well know; you, Cheryl and I have had many discussion regarding breeding Vaako and that sometimes in a co-ownership all of the parties might not agree, so there might come a point that one party might have to say I/We don't agree with this but I/We will support it and the next time I/We will have the majority say. Sound familiar? I think you are the one who made the statement first.

Elaine we have had a very good thing going in our relationship and our co-ownership, we have built a friendship as well which Cheryl and I value, you know us very well and know that we have NEVER and will NEVER do anything that is not in the best interest of Vaako or any of our dogs, you have said this to us repeatedly. I seem to remember something about us being the GOLD STANDARD of Co-Ownership and the GOLD STANDARD as a home because we always put what is best for the dog first!!! That fact is what makes your post offensive to us. There was no need for it. If you wish to discuss this further pick up the phone!

Bob

You are indeed in most every way the Gold Standard, and though you have never said so, we are also the GOLD standard of Breeders. That does not mean we agree on everything the other person says or does. This is not a matter of putting anyone in their place (and your place would be very high on any list), but I cringe when you present to the world that there was a legitimate offer on Vaako for $35K. For all sorts of reasons I think it gives readers and future breeders a very wrong impression.

[doberdogsfd]

I guess you read something that was not meant to be there. We did not see it as a legitimate offer. Hell the joke you and I had on the phone about it I thought you understood.

In addition if you do not think we have said you and Arthur have been the GOLD STANDARD as BREEDERS, CO- OWNERS and our FRIENDS I am sorry as we have and we have tried to show it in many of our posts. We thought we have made that clear to you. YOU ARE the GOLD STANDARD, WE LOVE YOU GUYS!!! You above all know what this last year has been like and how much we VALUE, YOU and YOUR Friendship!!! I hope you also know that we see you as our partner with Vaako and you know that we would never consider selling him in our own minds, and that we know you would not either. You should also know that we would never jeopardize our relationship with for a breeding, a sale, or any of the silly stuff.

Ok I did not use the verbiage GOLD STANDARD, but the notes about your unwavering support on many things and on many levels have proven that out! I think as with many things in a relationship sometimes you assume the other person knows and we don't always say what we mean. It is like a marriage.....we have had a good marriage no need for counseling or anything!!!:p

Our relationship was forged in some pretty hot fires and can withstand most anything. In one of my post I put a line about all the things we are greatful for...the line said something to the effect about the new friends and the relationships that have grown and gotten stronger, knowing who your true friends are....the latter part of that was about you!

Next time I will use Pagan as the example.....even though we have not been offered as much for him, only $15k. By the way Cheryl informs me that the offer was not $35k Vaako it was something like $20K. It was Flex or Sam back in the day that got the $35k offer.

Bob

[Elaine]

Sounds good. I will agree we may have read different things into what was said… that is a problem with the written word.

I have to say, I am not sleep deprived… though we were up till midnight, and up again at 3:00am... :o and Arthur (coming off a 24 ON CALL Saturday) is sick as a dog. We are accustomed to these kinds of hours, it is the life you accept in the military and in medicine, and we’ve been in both for years and years. :(

Arthur and I are at a point where we are re-evaluating certain things, like whether to go forward with DSNN. Like all of you, we make a huge commitment to our dogs (and horses).. our commitment to them impacts every aspect of our marriage and life style… it is the reason we have two homes… and have had considerable stretches of separation, the animals have come first, most especially for me. DSNN was a vision Arthur and I had years ago, we have committed time and resources to seeing it grow into something we are proud of, that is a reflection of the things we believe in.

For several reasons, last night we had a chance to take a look back at what our original goals for DSNN were… and where we are today.

I can say this, our original intention was that we discuss our dogs, objectively intelligently with a view toward bettering our breeds (whatever they may be) and bettering the sport itself.

Though I think we have been able to discuss many many tough topics with candor, openness and honesty, I personally would love to see us move towards more discussion of structure and movement, and breeding theories. Most of all, I don’t want to give anyone the impression that breeding Dobermans or any other breed is an easy money making venture with $35 K offers pouring in. We all know that when the expenses are tallied, breeders are in the red, and that is without even a nickel of compensation for our time.

[doberdogsfd]

I personally think that DSNN has reached a lot of people. I think much good has come from it. I also think many have learned a lot.

I think we could focus more on the darkside of breeding. Like the big money offers that occasionally come in and what that really means for the dog. Let's face it there are those that want Kafka and will do most anything for the line. The dog will suffer if it is sold because it will be passed around and breed and live a terrible life. If one of these threads stops one person from selling a dog into a situation like this DSNN is worth it. It has to be discussed that there is a seedy side and that one must be weary of folks who try and flash the cash. As I said in my other post if they are will to pay big money they are going to try and make it back....the way to do that is to abuse the dog! If anyone thinks breeding is a money making venture they are sorely mistaken.

We recently had a discussion about the Litters Page and if it makes breeding look too easy. I think sometimes it does. I remember you asking would we do it again...have another litter. I remember having to pause and think about it then answering in about 2 years....we need time to recover and take a break.

What we do not talk about enough are the sleepless nights, the money involved, the time commitment and the absurdity that comes with having puppies available for sale. The hours spent on email and the phone talking to perspective homes, or morons who want a dog.

What we have not talked about are the emails that say "you have nice dogs I want one how much?" You ignore them or send back here is the process and the range is $XX. Then you get a response "what? How can you charge that much, I was looking to spend $500 -$750, like the guy in the new paper charges". You want to respond, but saying "look you stupid...." is a waste of time. We should talk about the people that want a guarantee that the dog will never be sick or die....buy a washer if you want a guarantee. Or my absolute favorite the folks that have never owned a Doberman or shown a dog but want a "Top Specials dog" and a guarantee the puppy will turn out to be a Top 20's contender, oh and poop ice cream too. You say to them do have any idea what it takes to finish a dog? "No" Do you have any idea the cost of Specialing a dog? "No" But I can only afford to pay $1000 for the puppy. Huh?

I think I barely scratched the tip of the ice berg concerning the stuff we have not talked about on DSNN, but should. I think having the whole picture may change a few minds. The fact remains this is the only forum where any of that will be discussed with candor and honesty is without it I think there will be a lot of folks jumping into breeding or other things without the knowledge that can be found here.

Now there are many fun and frivolous things we talk about too, but there has to be a balance or the forum would not be fun. Just my spin.

Bob

[andyhilt27]

The following is phone conversation we had with a gentleman inquiring about a Toy Fox Terrier puppy...of which we didn't have.

Us: Hello.

Him: Yeah, I'm calling about one your toy fox terrier puppies.

Us: We don't currently have any right now. But we can keep you in mind for the future if the situation arises.

Him: Well, I got this male Rat Terrier that I'd like to breed. Can I do that?

Us: Uhhhh...You want to what??? Well, you're free to breed him to whatever you want with the exception of anything that comes from us.

Him: Well he is a real good dog. Sometimes he runs away but I don't worry much. He usually comes home in a few days.

We didn't bother responding to the last statement. The more I think about it now, the more I think it was a prank phone call. Or at least I hope it was. Sadly, it probably wasn't.

[Elaine]

Andy,

One of your most endearing qualities is that you simply make me laugh. Thank you.

And thank you Bob and Cheryl... for being who you are... with the ebb and flow. I treasure both of you. :)

I had a very long day yesterday… “its all good” but there was a milestone that really tugs at my heart (I will explain more in a few hours, but “it’s all good”). And we have another milestone this Saturday, which again is “all good”… but it still tugs (and again, there will be more about this on the right thread).


Getting back to this thread, we are considering sending a dog overseas, but if you can reach that threshold, all sorts of practical considerations pop up, above and beyond what has been discussed above.

We have sent two stallions overseas, it has worked very well for us. We did so with care, there is a very formal process for exporting stallions to an EU country, mandated by the governments involved, which, when all is said and done, cost $16K and includes a month of quarantine at an approved facility here in the USA before a stallion can even step a hoof on a plane for Europe.

So, maybe we could shift the focus to this discussion to a point after there is an agreement to send a dog. From that perspective all sorts of practical considerations pop up. If we “wear the hat” that we’d send a dog over seas, then, in addition to specific travel arrangements, what should a breeder ask for the dog, not in terms of purchase price, but in terms of “what does the breeder want back from the dog?”

As breeders we all have a general idea of what rights we like to retain, but when a dog you’ve bred goes beyond the reach of any court or contract, what agreement should you have and what rights should you retain.

Or should you simply trust the people and send the dog out right, after it has finished here in the USA?

[Minka]

*

[doberdogsfd]

I agree with Abe.

Has anyone heard the term " Gone when gone." ?
Wave good bye from the window at the airport and understand it is all over but the crying at that point.

Apples and oranges Elaine with sending a horse to Britian or Germany.
At the level you are selling a horse, it is typically headed for a career as an Olympic ride anyhow.

Not the same selling a dog to a country where the Government "frowns" upon the keeping of dogs.


Cheryl

[Elaine]

I agree with Abe.

Has anyone heard the term " Gone when gone." ?
Wave good bye from the window at the airport and understand it is all over but the crying at that point.

Apples and oranges Elaine with sending a horse to Britian or Germany.
At the level you are selling a horse, it is typically headed for a career as an Olympic ride anyhow.

Not the same selling a dog to a country where the Government "frowns" upon the keeping of dogs.


Cheryl

Many sales are "Gone when Gone." You have to trust that people are honorable.

As with any living creature, government policies and societal norms have a significant impact on quality of life. Government policies worldwide hugely impact horse ownership and the quality of care the horse receives. Horses change hands many many times over a life time. Even if the horse starts out as a possible Olympic ride… many things can happen to the horse along the way, including injury, that would drastically change the horse’s value and life style. Selling a living animal is a risk, probably much more so in the horses than in the dogs, because the horses live so much longer than a dog.

China isn't the only country we could take a second look at. In Germany (a country roughly the size of Ohio) they breed something like 50,000 Warmbloods each year. The best of the best are indeed extraordinary (and when you breed those numbers you are going to have lots to choose from), but the ones that don’t make it get shipped in boxes to countries that eat horse meat.


Even in England, the standard of perfection is hard to reach. Cooldanz was tense through the back at 1.40, so he is now in Belgium as an Eventer. That is one short step away from a French dinner table. There is an cultural ethic that says, we do not waste our time and resources on less than perfection.

For that matter, in Germany the breeding Wardens do not allow you to keep more than 5 puppies from a breeding. The puppies exceeding five are euthanized immediately. That is an accepted societal norm.

But you are back to the “whys” of selling and I am merely trying to have a discussion of the “hows.” How do you sell a dog overseas, at what age, under what circumstances, and what rights if any would you retain.

[Minka]

The notion of 'rights' is theoretical at best - how do you enforce them when your an ocean away.
Now as to the when my thoughts are you'd have to find the optimal mix between the dog being old enough to survive the journey (i:e 6 months plus) and the dog not getting emotionally attached and used to a lifestyle.

I know a dog who went from being a bed dog to a show pony - tend titles in as many different countries- he left when he was just hitting 4 - I bet the dog wishes for his old life back

[Elaine]

Our feeling is that there is no contract that would be enforceable, so you would have to trust the person you were selling to. Beyond that, focusing solely on practical matters, How long is an air trip? What are customs officials like? What if a flight gets delayed, either in transit or and some customs office? Who would speak up for the dog?

When we sent Cooldanz to England our trainer Elly Schobel flew with him, in the cargo hold, as part of the Global Transport crew. Elly did this for us and for Cooldanz, to make sure he had water and hay along the way (customs take all the food when the horses land, so you have to get fresh local hay, and water is very important, especially when horses are stressed), and that he arrived to his new home in good condition. Cooldanz’s flight was diverted to Amsterdam, we hired a PRIVATE box trailer and driver to drive him to France where he was to take a ferry across the English channel. We were in constant contact with Elly. The scum ball driver had double-booked a filly to ride with Cooldanz (a stallion). FYI, there is no way you would put a filly next to a stallion (and not expect colic). Elly was there to stand firm to say, “Get that frickin filly off the truck or we’re cancelling this.” They got the filly off the truck. At the Channel they did not want to load Cooldanz at all. They expected him to wait 12 hours for another ferry. Elly said, “Bull f_ckin shit!!! This boy has had a long flight, he needs to get where he’s going, NOW!!!” She bitched and moaned and they loaded him at the last minute. He made it safely to England.. in good shape. If Elly had not been with him, god only knows what would have happened.

At what age would anyone feel comfortable sending a dog. Would it make a difference of a person were traveling with the dog?

[doberdogsfd]

There are many good questions in your post. Not that we have any answers to them but they are all things that must be considered and anyone who is considering selling overseas should consider them all. There are horror stories of animals being held in quarnatine and being mistreated or dying due to lack of care. It scares the hell out of us.

Obviously it would be better if someone was travelling with the dog. Cheryl and I do not want to fly a dog in the U.S. let alone overseas. The thought of them in the cargo hold of plane with no one to ensure they are ok scares the hell out of us. We were so happy that Tala was able to fly in the cabin with Jerri as it saved me having to drive 2500 miles to deliver him. We know dogs fly in all the time without incident, but it is our hang up. Tala hanging out in the cabin with Jerri and MJ entertaining all the people sitting near him was much better for us.

We are looking forward to hearing others thoughts on this.

Bob

[Minka]

Here's my two bob -there come a time where one has to deal with the concept of cost. Who's going to foot the bill for this person 'traveling'on the plane with the dog ( circa US$2000 + expenses). How old is this dog when you let him or her go -six months / a year or is he or she the finished article. The tab starts adding up - who pays to finish the dog.Usually its the purchaser.
Cost of puppy x
Food and board costs from the day you purchase the puppy x
Handler fee plus board x
Cost of freight x
Cost related person traveling on the plane with the dog x
Costs related to clearing the dog x
Health testing x
At this rate your looking at a whopping $25,000 usd - now factor in currency fluctuations against the USD & based on volatility your potential costs could technically double
Then there are the purchasers fears
1. How do you know they are feeding the dog correctly ? - I've seen a case where the dog turned up and was skin and bones - he was lovely when they were selling him but factor in a two month time period between puchase and arrival - and what comes down is skin and bones
2. How do you know thats the pup you bough that got on that plane - what if your pup turned out better than the breeders pup ?
3. The pup you chose ended up winning a BIS from the classes - the breeder now wants to keep it
4. How do you know your money not just gone

Risk does not sit on just one side - one has to examine both sides of the transaction

[Elaine]

About breeders switching dogs or the risk of the dog maturing better than expected... I recall years ago a breeder sold a nice rather well-bred male puppy to woman in an EU country. The dog (a Non Sporting Breed) was nice, but not the most correctly built animal you’ve ever had your hands on. His scapula was long, but rather upright and not smoothly laid on. He had a proportionally short upper arm, and moved a bit wide in front, though the lift of the upper arm was exceptional even as an eight week old puppy. He was evaluated as a “good” puppy, but not a “great” one. At the time of the sale, the breeders were thrilled to have made a sale.

But here is something about structure that is true, the scapula is not a hinged/fixed joint, It moves elliptically. Given the right proportions and the right balance of other parts, even an upright shoulder can produce extra ordinary side movement. The agreement was that the dog would remain in the US until it finished… and then be shipped to the new owner. The breeder’s name and the woman in the EU country were listed on the AKC papers and in show catalogs. Well, the puppy finished with amazing style, may have even taken a BIS from the puppy classes. All of a sudden he was “too attached to the breeder to be sold to an EU country” so they refunded the buyer’s money… and of course sold the dog to a US backer, who bought them a motor home.

[Minka]

How many breeders in the US would sell a BIS winner abroad - I've seen it happen in other parts of the world. You have stud dog owners now who are putting it into their stud contracts - puppies do not leave the country. The EU buyer should have known the dog was not coming over after the BIS

[Elaine]

How many breeders in the US would sell a BIS winner abroad -

I suspect that even if the offer were good enough… and the total package was excellent (which included how the dog was cared for), it’d still be a big rock to push up a hill.

But there are really two distinct kinds of breeders:

1. There are breeders who breed for themselves, to produce THE great dog, for themselves. I would guess you could not pry a dog loose from them.

2. There are the breeders who breed for the money. Income is the ultimate goal, breeding and showing dogs is how they make their living. They are a production line of dogs, one litter after another, year after year, decade after decade. They own the high volume records in the breed, not so much because they breed such great quality, but rather, because they breed so many frickin dogs. Most all are handlers (or married to/connected to a specific handler), breeding the dogs that are their clients (and they have contracts that say they show the dog, at X number of shows, and they get X number of litters /puppies back). It's all about a steady stream of income. They breed to sell all over the world, they follow the dollar. They are breeding dogs to sell, which is not too dissimilar from Ford Motor Company, producing cars to sell. There is an assembly line, large numbers, a formulaic approach… some products are good, some are not so good… it’s all about the sales, of either the puppies/dogs or the semen.

There is a reason that we see basically only four or five kennel names popping up over seas. That is not to say they produce bad dogs, quite the contrary, some, like Hero, are absolutely gorgeous.. but those breeders have to sell dogs, it is how they make a living… so with them money talks. With the rest of us, it talks too, but it takes a whole lot more to get our attention. We are breeding for the “thrill” of either showing our own dogs or being able to stand ringside and watch them be shown… that thrill is worth almost nothing at all to you, and more than you can afford to us.

[Akshay_Bondre]

Don't know about other countries, but since this topic title states India, thought I'd just tell.. Even the breeders who have no issues selling their dogs to India don't really send great dogs / pups here. Till date, I have not seen one single AWESOME dobe being imported. As much as I agree, that some breeders, like Elaine have genuine reasons of concern which dictate their uni-directional decision about some countries, its kind of disheartening and discouraging.

[Elaine]

I get that it’s discouraging. I hear that in the dialogue of friends from India asking for dogs. Being that I am a product of how I was raised, my first response is something like, “OHhh, how can I help? What can I do to help you?”

But lately I have a newer perspective which is, “Your challenges are not my problems. You need to find a way to deal with it.” In general in life, we will not find any resolution if we do not truly understand the problem, and/or if we throw up our hands and walk away.

I think this dialogue is actually useful in facilitating better understanding. For me, if we could reach the threshold that it is okay to send a dog over seas, the next huge hurdle is this: the dog would have to be perfect… absolutely perfect, because we would not want the person over seas to be disappointed, if only because when they are disappointed, the dog suffers.

Consider that Michael Lui purchased Piper, purportedly had a litter out of her at 14 months, then apparently had no more use for her and gave/sold her to some “partner “ down the road… who will no doubt breed here again (or already has) because neither he or Lui have a clue why not to.

Now, I would not sell to Lou to begin with, because of his reputation, and it seems he burns through dogs, but even if I could come to accept him, it’s his impulsivity and what he does when the glow is diminished that are of HUGE concern.

SO, the foreign buyer would need to have the Best-Of-The-Best, which is exactly what I am breeding for. And, to be perfectly honest. If I had such a perfect dog, why on earth would I sell it for any amount of money?

[Minka]

If I had such a perfect dog, why on earth would I sell it for any Amount of money?

1. Money does not motivate you so that bits irrelevant :p anyway
2. Because the people you sell to are not buyers - correct me if i'm wrong but in 90% of the cases you know them - an overseas buyer would technically be someone you know - your just diversifing geographically
3. The dog could end up being the Eddie or the Kafka in this new world and have a massive impact on the breed
4. Contrary to the ultra hardline position you've argued your open minded and willing to listen........ need I go on :P

[Elaine]

Not sure which “Elaine” you want to go with here… it’s either the hard-headed intractable old goat who can’t find her own ass with both hands (without a human operated GPS), :D or the soft-hearted push over who’d love to send you the dog of your dreams. :) It’s just that, even if I had the dog of your dreams (and I don’t, but I may have the bitch of Michelle’s dreams ;)), by the time the dog is old enough to actually be able to be sent to you… I will have become too attached. :o

And ask anyone, I have NO DESIRE WHAT-SO-EVER to have a Logres dog be the next Eddie or Kafka... I have no desire to be a semen dealer. :cool:

Abe, if you lived here I’d probably "give" you a dog…

[PawPrint Boxers]

I will relate a sad story. I was blessed with an incredible Boxer puppy, purchased from a show breeder, as my 2nd Boxer. I expected him to finish, and he did. I ended up breeding to him with my own bitch and finishing 2 Champions from my first litter. As I showed those 2 boys, I showed their father as a Special. Very much amateur owner-handled. To my surprised, he would win. And as I bred to him again, I had another Champion. I continued to show him and he would grab his wins here and there among some insane California competition. A local friend bred to him and had a fabulous litter. I took a lovely bitch as a stud fee pup, co-owned her and finished. The litter sister whom was equally nice was sold to the east coast. After a few months, she was returned because of the owners had some serious health issues. The breeder was then convinced to sell her to India. It seems my boy's name was becoming a desirable thing to see. That is a double edge sword sometimes.

The Indian person whom bought the bitch would call me daily. Asking for pictures of Booker T, pedigree info, where else could he buy another Booker T pup, etc. I would send him what he asked except for breeder referrals. I was enjoying showing Booker T's get and truly had no desire to send the nice ones away. He was quite lucky to have found this mature female. The man goes back to India with the bitch. Suddenly "Gypsy" is with a totally different show kennel. It seems this man was nothing more than a broker. Gypsy is shown, is the #1 Boxer bitch, wins multiple Best in Shows, and is bred. After she is bred, she sold or given to another person. Then that happened one more time. Then Gyspy died.

If you will believe this, the man that had her when she died, had the nerve to call me asking me to sell him another Booker T daughter. I asked what happened to her, and he simply said she died, "but now I need another bitch". I kept my cool and asked questions. I got out of him that she bled out during whelp and that he never took her to a vet or even called a vet. Basically she was expendable and he now needed another bitch to breed. I asked why did he keep one from her if that bloodline was considered so valuable? He had no answer.

I was furious, hurt, confused, sad, and emotionally wiped out. Because of that winning bitch and her get that did quite well over there, I started getting alot of inquiries from India. I turned each one down cold flat. After time there was a well spoken man who cracked through my anger wall to find out what happened. Over time we struck up a friendship and I realized not all were that bad. This man paid a visit over here in the States a few years back and I introduced him to Booker T when he was being shown in Veterans. However I also learned, again over time, that quite a bit were exactly like as bad as I had experienced personally. Just as we have our sweet talking pimps-for-bucks types, so too do they have them in India. Brokering is very common over there. I get such calls to this very day.

So at the end of the day, it is the same Beware attitude I take with any puppy inquiry. However you have to realize that when you send a dog overseas, that is it. You have to hope and pray all is well. So in saying that, I say it is better to have known that person for a very long time before even considering it. More than just the occasional email asking to buy a pup. I actually had one 2 days ago where another male breeder in India asked: "Are you ready to sell me a puppy yet?". I did not even recognize their name :(

[Elaine]

Your experience sends chills.

We've been contacted by people with very similar approaches... and by brokers. For example, I believe that Roc Vali is a broker, though he claimed to be a vet in the North East.

[Minka]

For someone who did not want to get involved with this discussion I seem to keep coming back like a crack addict. First up Christina welcome to DSNN- your going to love it.
I am sorry about your Indian experience, the reality is brokers exist - In the US you have a more structured broker the 'professional dog handler' - we just have your garden variety pondscum.
You'll find I tend to argue the case for the intenational puchaser, this is because I'd like people to give the small 1% that are enthusiasts a fair go & because Elaine chose to argue the other side.
I guess I'm just fortunate that Elaine & JMG (who seems to have gone MIA) did not just say go take a hike- however Christina going by your reasoning I'm pondscum masquerading as Banker :P

[Elaine]

... the reality is brokers exist - In the US you have a more structured broker the 'professional dog handler' - we just have your garden variety pondscum. :P

Abe, / Minka makes a pretty good point about professional handlers being brokers (or pimps) for the dogs/semen they handle or control. That’s why a flurry of the handler’s clients all breed to the handler’s dog, regardless of what the dog produces or how bad the breeding combination is. Many owners simply haven't a clue how to evaluate dogs, and they really don’t understand things like commissions on puppies and semen sales. So they rely upon their handlers to make breeding choices for them. It amount to roughly the same thing as using a broker.

But, in the USA, we do not often hear of an owner who lets a bitch bleed to death while whelping a litter. That is gruesome and totally unacceptable by our standards (at least I’d like to think it is, but who knows what all people do). Some members of the DPCA use kitchen croppers, and/or are kitchen croppers, and that is gruesome :(

[doberdogsfd]

This is probably better on the All about Breeding thread, but I will jump off here and see what happens! E may boot it into that if she cares to. :)

In regards to the "brokers" , it is seen all the time here. No one wants to call it that, because of the obvious negativity of it and wanting everything to be nicey, nicey.

Some owners they are rather inexperienced and have little or no control over their dogs at a very crucial point.
What is annoying to me( a lot of stuff annoys me btw...), is they do whatever they are told to do and seem not to want to learn about breeding combinations or the reality of it all.
Kind of like sticking their heads in the sand or being one of the Borg in The Collective.

My favorite comment or response is, " Well, So n So told me to, so it has to be ok."
Neat. If "So n So" told you to stick a needle in your eye repeatedly, is that ok? Give me a break!!

In my humble and rather militant opinion, if you own a stud dog or a bitch that is going to be bred, I think there is a responsability you have as the dog's owner( aka: footing the bills and doing the daily work) to understand things. Things that impact your dog, you and the future of the breed in a big picture sense.

When owners start doing the " I need to have you explain why to me before we move forward. " The "broker" gig is all over :eek: " Because I told you so!" ends at that intersection.
It will then become a mentor and student dynamic and the ability to say " Nope, not a good idea." comes into play, therefore allowing for free thought.
We then also have owners that are becoming educated and starting to understand the game at hand. :eek:

Cheryl

[PawPrint Boxers]

I guess I'm just fortunate that Elaine & JMG (who seems to have gone MIA) did not just say go take a hike- however Christina going by your reasoning I'm pondscum masquerading as Banker :P

I will be honest and say I am not sure what you mean. Language barrier I suppose. I hesitated putting down my story in print. I have told it verbally over the years. But my hesitation here is I really do not want to make it sound like India breeders are some evil type of folks. I am blessed to now feel quite comfortable with a few good people over there. However India was the topic at hand and I related my personal story. Not a 3rd party version where the facts can be distorted. Been around the show ring enough to know that is an all too common thing :)

For me it was that I felt I let that poor Boxer bitch down. I realize I did not sell her; the breeder did. And the breeder was a friend whom was going on advice by another. But I sat up all night and helped whelp that litter. It was a dream litter. I was so impressed with both girls, I had a hard time making my pick. And I second guessed myself back and forth as they both grew. I wanted to see them both have fabulous careers in the ring. And for a while, it seemed that was what was happening. I will add this. I put alot of feelers out in India to see what really happened when I heard she was dead. I just could not accept anyone would allow this lovely bitch to bleed to death without any vet care. My heart could not fathom such cruelty. Yet here was this man, telling me this, and asking that I sell him another lovely bitch puppy to breed from.

Now after a while of meeting up with alot of different folks in India, I was offered a rather well told rumor over what really happened to this poor Boxer bitch. However what was told to me, by more than one person, made my blood run even colder. I will not post it here as that is more of a 3rd party telling.

[Akshay_Bondre]

See, cruel dog breeders / dog brokers / people using dogs for monetary gains, like, irreverent people / criminals / serial killers would be present in every part of the world, so although I offer my condolences to PawPrintBoxers, sharing such stories in a thread which aims at knowing how compatible India is (for sending dogs) or could be doesn't make sense. In fact, it just adds up to negative notion about India.

@ pawprint :
Your case was different, you could not help what happened to the bitch, but I doubt it was only because she was sent to India. The very fact, that you got to know about her demise after everything happened shows that it would have happened in USA too without you knowing it.

@ all :
If you don't find India worth to send your dogs here, don't do so. But, telling bad stories about dogs who were sent here is not done! What about 3 "import-doberman" owners that I know personally in India, and 1 happens to be from my city too? They look after their dogs well. They would be pissed off to read something like this but very few actually bother.

This thread should be renamed to, "Why we US-breeders don't want to sell our dogs to India"

[Minka]

@ Pawprint
- I wrote that post in a hurry this time around I'll be long winded.
1. I call a number of people who post on this forum "friends". I would have never gotten to know these people 'if' they had done exactly what you say you do and drop the phone on any bloke that calls from India. Elaine , Janice , Bob & Cheryl I had no idea I was so priveledged .

2. I am ''shocked' that the chap let this bitch bleed to death on the kitchen floor without any vet care - I can only conclude that
a) he must be extreamly sadistic &
b) God must have been out of the 'grey' matter when it came to his turn because
- He knowingly let his áll time 'top winning boxer bitch (purchased for circa $10,000 plus ) hemorage on his kitchen floor instead of calling his vet who probably would have charged him $20.
-He then sold all '' her puppies then called the US '( the phone call alone would have cost him way more than $20) looking to buy a pup of similar bloodlines who's all up landing cost would probably exceed the ''gross'' realisation value of 5 top boxer litters in India
- He then proceeded to tell a breeder whom he was looking to buy a pup from that he let a dog die on his kitchen floor rather than provide the animal with vet care

@ Akshay
- Relax ! Do you actually believe that the people here are not aware of the "House of Hoyts" or 'Kimbertal's' ; a majority of the people here are open minded - you are here to represent that percentage of the population that actually loves animals- those that cannot get past their 'prejudices' will not get past them - focus on the ópen minded people
- However lets face it you have a choice as well - if your looking to import you can take the easy way or if you want a puppy from a certain set of people - you stay and fight the good fight and make dammed sure you do not betray that trust once its bestowed

@ Everybody
Can everybody that understands my post say "I"

[Elaine]

The very fact, that you got to know about her demise after everything happened shows that it would have happened in USA too without you knowing it.

Really??? And how on earth did you come to that conclusion?

From what you’ve posted about yourself, you are a neophyte when it comes to dogs in general, and you’re even less knowledgeable about showing and breeding. Christina is an experienced breeder of top quality dogs, in a breed that is very competitive. She has the perspective of actual life experience at the top of the sport.

You seem to be saying, “Don’t discuss what really goes on because it makes us in India all look bad.” Well guess what, as a country, at times you do look bad. IF you don’t like how the truth reflects on your country, work to make some positive changes. But don’t expect us to sugar coat things to suit you, because you find the truth is hard to hear. That simply ain’t happening.

People like Michael Lui make you look bad. The ethnic that says that “dogs are an expendable commodity that you use up and then discard” makes you look bad. The reality of what goes on in your show rings coupled with the fact that your society as a whole does not value a dog as companions they way we do here, MAKES YOU LOOK BAD.

You are not going to overcome the negative perceptions about what happens to dogs in your country by whining that you don’t want people to discuss it.

This thread should be renamed to, "Why we US-breeders don't want to sell our dogs to India"

About renaming the thread… I have no problem doing so. But it wouldn’t matter if we named it, “10 Reasons Pigs Can’t Fly” there are still examples of US breeders sending dogs to India that ended up in horrific situations. And when that happens, the US breeder is not close enough to step in and save the dog. And apparently in your country there is such a callous disregard for the value of a dog’s life, that the vile pig who allowed this beautiful bitch to bleed out and die is actually stupid enough to come back to the breeder asking for a chance to do it again. I think what you missed in Christina’s narrative is that the moron did not feel any remorse or shame for what he’d allowed to happen and that attitude reflects a societal norm that we utterly and totally abhor. Now, this guy would be a vile pig (and much worse) no matter where he lived, but he fact that he lives in a country so far away, that does not have the support system for our breed that we have here in the US is a huge concern for US breeders.

[Akshay_Bondre]

From what you’ve posted about yourself, you are a neophyte when it comes to dogs in general, and you’re even less knowledgeable about showing and breeding. Christina is an experienced breeder of top quality dogs, in a breed that is very competitive. She has the perspective of actual life experience at the top of the sport.


So, me being a neophyte curbs my rights of stating what seems obviously wrong ? I again state it, these things happen in your country too, just go to some other forums and see their rescue forum sections, there are worse stories than this one. Too bad if you got to taste the bad side of selling dogs from India. My point is, its very much possible in your own country too, so why is this story being narrated in this particular thread?


You seem to be saying, “Don’t discuss what really goes on because it makes us in India all look bad.” Well guess what, as a country, at times you do look bad. IF you don’t like how the truth reflects on your country, work to make some positive changes. But don’t expect us to sugar coat things to suit you, because you find the truth is hard to hear. That simply ain’t happening.

People like Michael Lui make you look bad. The ethnic that says that “dogs are an expendable commodity that you use up and then discard” makes you look bad. The reality of what goes on in your show rings coupled with the fact that your society as a whole does not value a dog as companions they way we do here, MAKES YOU LOOK BAD.


You keep naming one single person and cribbing about what happened to the dogs sent to him. Thats because that is all you know, or thats all you bothered to know. If I wanted my country to look sugar coated, I would keep posting pictures of my friends keeping show dogs properly and probably even linking them over to this forum. Am I doing it? No! .. Truth is, you don't know what actually goes on in our country, even if I tell you, you would prefer to be convinced by a handful bad stories and ignore the good ones, if you know of any.



About renaming the thread… I have no problem doing so. But it wouldn’t matter if we named it, “10 Reasons Pigs Can’t Fly” there are still examples of US breeders sending dogs to India that ended up in horrific situations. And when that happens, the US breeder is not close enough to step in and save the dog. And apparently in your country there is such a callous disregard for the value of a dog’s life, that the vile pig who allowed this beautiful bitch to bleed out and die is actually stupid enough to come back to the breeder asking for a chance to do it again. I think what you missed in Christina’s narrative is that the moron did not feel any remorse or shame for what he’d allowed to happen and that attitude reflects a societal norm that we utterly and totally abhor. Now, this guy would be a vile pig (and much worse) no matter where he lived, but he fact that he lives in a country so far away, that does not have the support system for our breed that we have here in the US is a huge concern for US breeders.

I repeat again, I do agree there are people who treat dogs badly in India. But that doesn't represent all of the country. But the direction in which this thread is headed or made to head, it is pretty obvious that most of you have a fixed idea about India and just want to indulge in how bad it is to send dogs here. There is no productive discussion here, and it is a pity to see few good breeders from India active on this site but not responding to this thread.

@Elaine : You know what, with the kind of attitude you carry, I doubt any sensible self-respecting Indian would approach you for a puppy. So, by choice or not, you would always invite turds and keep away the good people.

[Elaine]

So, me being a neophyte curbs my rights of stating what seems obviously wrong ? I again state it, these things happen in your country too, just go to some other forums and see their rescue forum sections, there are worse stories than this one. Too bad if you got to taste the bad side of selling dogs from India. My point is, its very much possible in your own country too, so why is this story being narrated in this particular thread?



You keep naming one single person and cribbing about what happened to the dogs sent to him. Thats because that is all you know, or thats all you bothered to know. If I wanted my country to look sugar coated, I would keep posting pictures of my friends keeping show dogs properly and probably even linking them over to this forum. Am I doing it? No! .. Truth is, you don't know what actually goes on in our country, even if I tell you, you would prefer to be convinced by a handful bad stories and ignore the good ones, if you know of any.



I repeat again, I do agree there are people who treat dogs badly in India. But that doesn't represent all of the country. But the direction in which this thread is headed or made to head, it is pretty obvious that most of you have a fixed idea about India and just want to indulge in how bad it is to send dogs here. There is no productive discussion here, and it is a pity to see few good breeders from India active on this site but not responding to this thread.

@Elaine : You know what, with the kind of attitude you carry, I doubt any sensible self-respecting Indian would approach you for a puppy. So, by choice or not, you would always invite turds and keep away the good people.



My overwhelming thought here is that you are young and inexperienced. DSNN has offered a chance for an open frank dialogue about this topic, that is more than any other forum has ever allowed, encouraged or supported. That, in and of itself, is a gift, and an opportunity. Some people recklessly squander the opportunities they are presented with in life, possibly they think there will always be another. Good luck with that approach.

It is presumptions at best to speculate about the motives of others. You have not been correct with respect to my motives and/or the purpose of this thread.

I am not going to debate with you or anyone whether I have sufficient experiences in life in general (or in dogs specifically) to form and hold my opinions. Posters like Christina do not have to defend their opinions either, in large part because they are backed by years of experience which, to be blunt, you utterly lack.

I truly can’t find any merit in your thought process, none at all. You seem childish and defensive rather than informed and insightful, jumping to inaccurate conclusions that reflect more wrong assumptions than I care to unravel. You seem to expect that we US breeders jump through hoops to understand you, and that we overlook experiences that many breeders have had over the years… all to accommodate you and your whims and desires. That type of approach simply does not work with me. I find Abe’s approach much more persuasive and compelling. So I guess we can agree that you are not someone I would feel comfortable placing a dog with, and (unlike Minaz , Michelle, Abe and Chumi), you have done nothing at all to change any perceptions I have.

[PawPrint Boxers]

....... sharing such stories in a thread which aims at knowing how compatible India is (for sending dogs) or could be doesn't make sense. In fact, it just adds up to negative notion about India."

The topic is called "Selling dogs to India". My story falls squarely into this title. I respect you do not appreciate it. But then, I also did not appreciate being told my lovely Best in Show winning bitch died in whelp without a vet ever being called, all her puppies sold and the new owner simply wanting a new well-bred uterus.

@ pawprint : Your case was different, you could not help what happened to the bitch, but I doubt it was only because she was sent to India. The very fact, that you got to know about her demise after everything happened shows that it would have happened in USA too without you knowing it.

One of the main reasons I could not help her was BECAUSE she was in India. While this could be in any other country, it was not. It was in India and there was no way I could get over there to save her, buy her back or anything else. She was bought and traded among several different India breeders like you might sell an aging car or a pair of shoes you no longer wear.

Over the years, I still get quite a few inquiries from that country. And to most, I will tell my story so they understand my hestitations. You see, I am an honest breeder. I give alot of people the benefit of the doubt. However, I have a heart about my dogs. They are innocent. They need me to make these important decisions. So, when I tell my story to an inquiry from India, I gauge the response.

What do you think my response to you would be if you approached me for a well bred pup, heard my story and responded as you have done? Take heed that you have been given a public forum to represent yourself and your country (if you wish that responsibility). Your task is either to put your best foot forward and show us your good side, or continue to make comments against my heart wretching experience and tell me I am being unfair. Your move.

P.S. If there are other folks from India on this forum, I in no way am making a broad statement against any of you. It took a long time and the patience of several incredible breeders in India to reach a more balanced perspective. I have no desire to show distain to those that I know truly hold their dogs in the same value I do. And I don't mean financial value :)

[Minka]

Akshay you get involved , you've got passion 'but you also use a sledge hammer instead of something more subtle , you don't listen , you certainly dont read between the lines & you certainly don't know E's motivation so therefore I'm going to see if I can get your point across & I'd place myself in the self respecting Indian category - actually I lie the passports not Indian .

"The reality of what goes on in your show rings coupled with the fact that your society as a whole does not value a dog as companions they way we do here"
- The show ring represents a very small part of the dog owner population in India ; a large percentage of the people that approach you are the people that depend on the show scene for a living .
So what you get is the Indian version of the Andy Linton/Titan story or one of the Jim White stories I've heard here - they did take place in America did they not
so therefore : The statement is a sweeping generalisation based on little empirical evidence - one swallow does not make a summer a few bad apples do not make our society as a whole not value dogs as companions.

Akshay are you looking to import a dog - now or in the near future - do you have any idea how difficult it is to find what you want . Lets not forget that it is the Indian approaching the American breeder not the other way around to flip the relationship we have to produce our own Lex or Alex or Yankee or Inaqui or Trotyl and thats not going to happen unless we get the best inputs which is again not going to happen unless we change perceptions - Now if you think you can get yourself a fantastic doberman from a top breeder go try getting the breeder of this years top winning doberman to give you a pup when she breeds that bitch .

"Were here to change perceptions and educate people " getting huffy and angry is not going to change anything -

[Elaine]

Akshay you get involved , you've got passion 'but you also use a sledge hammer instead of something more subtle , you don't listen , you certainly dont read between the lines & you certainly don't know E's motivation so therefore I'm going to see if I can get your point across & I'd place myself in the self respecting Indian category - actually I lie the passports not Indian .

"The reality of what goes on in your show rings coupled with the fact that your society as a whole does not value a dog as companions they way we do here"
- The show ring represents a very small part of the dog owner population in India ; a large percentage of the people that approach you are the people that depend on the show scene for a living .
So what you get is the Indian version of the Andy Linton/Titan story or one of the Jim White stories I've heard here - they did take place in America did they not
so therefore : The statement is a sweeping generalisation based on little empirical evidence - one swallow does not make a summer a few bad apples do not make our society as a whole not value dogs as companions.

Akshay are you looking to import a dog - now or in the near future - do you have any idea how difficult it is to find what you want . Lets not forget that it is the Indian approaching the American breeder not the other way around to flip the relationship we have to produce our own Lex or Alex or Yankee or Inaqui or Trotyl and thats not going to happen unless we get the best inputs which is again not going to happen unless we change perceptions - Now if you think you can get yourself a fantastic doberman from a top breeder go try getting the breeder of this years top winning doberman to give you a pup when she breeds that bitch .

"Were here to change perceptions and educate people " getting huffy and angry is not going to change anything -


Abe, in a general way you have hit on why I think this thread is of value. We can not move forward without some honest understanding of where we are now. One thing I note in Christina’s narrative is that even after all is said and done, she has not simply dismissed all of India. She recognizes that what happened to that precious beautiful bitch was one tragic incident. And one huge concern is that it happened so far away that she was not able to act in time to save her bitch. That tragic ending is one HUGE distinction between her story and the Andy Linton – Ch. Logres Titanium story. Another is that we have photos to document what happened to Titan while he was in the care of Andy Linton.

Titan’s story goes about like this. We sent Titan to Andy Linton in superb muscle and condition. Titan won every weekend with Andy until he simply got too thin to win. All the time Titan was with Andy, Andy was telling us to enter more shows. The truth is that for whatever reasons, Andy allowed Titan to become emaciated.. and yet he still showed Titan, and was still asking us to enter Titan in more shows. We believe that Titan had become “a gas dog.” Essentially Andy Linton was taking our money ($4,000.00) and instead of giving us what we were paying for, he was presenting Titan to the fancy in the worst way possible. that, inmy opinion, is fraud.

At one point, when Andy had Titan in California, we were contacted by my dear friend Cheri McNealy (levity folks, simply a bit of levity in this otherwise dark discussion). Cheri at least had the balls to contact us by email and simply say, “You might want to take a look at what Andy is doing." That short email was all I needed to make further inquiries. I called McNealy immediatley. She then mentioned her impression that Andy was using Titan as a gas dog, that the dog is demoralized, and that he was horribly out of condition. Still later Marj Brooks said essentially the same thing. (btw, in all of this good ol' Cathy Ceely said absolutely nothing about Titan's declining weight. Go Cathy!!! Great way to say thanks for the trip to the Garden, the motor home for two weeks.. etc etc etc. )

Anyway, after a phone conversation with McNealy, it did not take even half an hour to get in contact with Mr. Linton and arrange for Titan to be flown home. It took a week to get a flight for Titan. I was absolutely horrified with Titan’s condition when I pickled him up at the airport. Horrified. I was on the phone with Lisa DeRoulet on the way home from the airport. She called me the following day and urged me to get photos of Titans condition. Taking those photos was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do, but largely thanks to Lisa, we have a record of what happened. I sent the photos to friends around the world within hours of taking them, so that there would be no dispute about the time and date they were taken. Bottom line, we had a chance to act in time and we had documentation that Mr. Linton can not ignore. All he ever had to do was feed the dog, or send the dog home.

One month to the day after returning from Andy Lintion, Titan was in the ring, with Kelly Marquis. Though he was still not back to his very best, he was good enough to kick frickin ass in the ring. Titan took 9 points, including a major, in two weeks with Kelly and was finished. Ch. Logres’ Titanium is alive, fit and healthy as I write this because we were able to act in time. Had he been in India when this situation occurred, he’d probably be just a tragic memory.

Also, unlike what happened to Christina’s Boxer bitch, Mr. Linton did not do anything as horrific as neglecting to get necessary emergency medical care. He simply allowed Titan to get far too thin.

As many of you know, Mr. Linton never even called us to ask if Titan made it home safely. I have had dogs with Mr. Linton over the years, I have flown dogs to him, he has flown dogs back to me. I have flown dogs to other people. I have never ever not had someone call to check that the dog they put on the plane made it safely to the destination. Mr. Linton never called to see if Titan made it home safely. My guess is that he knew we'd be furious when we saw Titan's condition and he was too much of a coward to face us and what he'd done to Titan. It was easier for him to simply attack us. I would guess that he did not expect we would put the photos and video of what happened on our web page. Btw, we did not do that for well over a week or so. Mr. Linton had a significant amount of time to simply call us and say, “Hey guys, by now you’ve seen him and know what was going on. I am so sorry I let it get this far. I should have simply sent him home to you much sooner.”

Had he done that, we would have respected Mr. Linton for having enough character and integrity to take responsibility for what happened to Titan while Titan was in his care. But Linton has never done more than spread gossip that I/we are bad people. (I will now admit to being the Anti-Christ, but that does not absolve Mr Linton from a duty to take care of Titan, and at a minimum that duty included either feeding Titan or sending him home). We have heard that Mr Linton says that Titan’s weight was our fault and or that we sent Titan to Linton thin, which is an absolute lie, and you can see it’s a lie from the video taken in the ring just days before Titan was sent to Andy, from the professional photos that Miguel Betancourt took of Titan just days before Titan was sent to Andy… and from the photos Andy sent us of Titan, taken a few days after Titan arrived at Andy’s, all showing that Titan was sent to Andy in superb weight, muscle and condition.

But Linton has never done more than spread gossip that Titan’s weight was our fault and or that we sent Titan to Linton thin, which is an absolute lie, and you can see it’s a lie from the video taken in the ring just days before Titan was sent to Andy, from the professional photos that Miguel Betancourt took of Titan just days before Titan was sent to Andy… and from the photos Andy sent us of Titan, taken a few days after Titan arrived at Andy’s, all showing that Titan was sent to Andy in superb weight, muscle and condition.

Now Abe, with respect to the email you sent me this morning, if you read this narrative above and then go read what is on the Andy Linton page of our website http://logresfarm.com/Andy%20Linton.htm I will bet you a buck that here is some detail wrong.

[doberdogsfd]

I have been enjoying the fact that Akshay jumps in with both feet! He is passionate and seems pretty commited to changing a perception.
Like myself, he tends to wade in and swing the 2x4 to get your attention.....well he got it! :) It actually opened up productive dialogue between us. Abe jumped in, Christine stated some very good facts as to why and Elaine shared some life experiences she has had.

I think we all can refrence some terrible things that have occured in this country as well...Vick, the jackass that lit a puppy on fire 2 weeks ago in Philly ,breeders without a clue allowing bitches to die in labor or loose entire litters because of one reason or the other.

I will also reference the post she just made regarding the "2 yr Old Teacher" .
It is a good bet not one of my dogs is going nor her's. That person lives around the bend in this country.


Ok...now that I have stated the obvious that we all have complete jackasses living in our respective countries. Let's move forward.

Christine, I think it would go a long way if you tossed the name out of the person that let the bitch bleed out.
If it isn't for any other reason then one of us or perhaps someone we know gets a ring from him/her.
I think you realize I am friends with some Boxer people out here on the East Coast....if they were to be contacted, I would like to have shared the info with them. It may impact another dog's life positively.

The other reason to share the name is to bring this stuff out of the shadows. What is dirty and backroom about our sport/fancy needs to be brought into the light if it is to change.

I can imagine your heartbreak over this. The lack of control and ability to help. It pains us to hear it.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

I think you make some very important points. Alot of the troubling things that occur happen in the quiet solitude of unanimity. One reason I name names is that it takes the narrative of our life experience from out of the realm of idle gossip, and puts it squarely in the context of facts as we know them. That is not to say that our perceptions are the only way to look at a situation. Like all of us, we have a point of view, based upon our perspective of the situation. Someone else looking at the same set of facts may see things very differently. Given the chance to tell their side of the story, and discus our differences, we may all find a common ground of acceptance and understanding. But if no one ever discusses things that go on with openness and honesty, we are doomed to continue as we have been, engaged in patterns that simply do not work well, and that is a stagnant place to be, for the breed and the sport.

Our founding fathers valued free speech, and a robust lively public debate, where we are challenged to defend cherished beliefs, in part because they feared “ the deep slumber of decided opinion.” Robust debate here is a good thing. True, it pushes buttons and boundaries, but overall it facilitates learning.

[doberdogsfd]

I live my life by this...."Live Free or Die!"



Again, I am rather militant :D
Cheryl

[RaindanceIGs]

No, I wouldn't. I am very controlling in where my line goes, and dealing with a dog in a foreign country means you basically forfeit all control. In the very rare instance I had an excellent relation with the individual in a foreign country it might be considered, if I believed they had the same ethics and goals that I did. There's plenty of other breeders that are happy to do anything for $$$, let THEM send their dogs to India - not me.

[PawPrint Boxers]

Christina, I think it would go a long way if you tossed the name out of the person that let the bitch bleed out.
If it isn't for any other reason then one of us or perhaps someone we know gets a ring from him/her.

That won't happen. The coward ran into legal problems of some type soon after I confronted him and went off to hide in Canada. I know because he actually contacted me from Canada, as did one of his friends. Truth be told, I do not blame him 100%. I also have to add blame to the broker that bought her then sold her, the show breeder that bought her then sold her, the broker that supposedly popped up again during the next sale, and *then* the final breeder whom just wanted her uterus. Years later I was approached by another broker for this same top show breeder. They wanted another show bitch, of course. I asked if they knew Gypsy was dead. They did. I explained that because of that, I did not see myself putting yet another Boxer into that same situation. To this breeder's credit, he called me with an interpreter and offered his sympathies, for lack of a better description. What I took away was that is was quite common to use and then resell even a top winning dog/bitch. And while they had no true alarm over what had happened, they did recognize I seemed to care deeply. LOL---of course they still wanted to keep the relationship open for me to sell a future pup to them. But I do have to give credit for at least the very expensive phone call. They even made the offer to send one of her grand kids or great grand kids to me, if I was interested. Considering I saw an ad selling a litter supposedly from Gypsy, but actually a year past her death, I had to question being able to trust any pedigree that went back to her. (rumors are it was out of her daughter but the pups would sell better if say to be out of the BIS winner)

One thing of interest to those with cropped and docked breeds - the IKC is currently discussing banning the procedures. It seems the AR folks are active over there as well. Don't you ever wonder what a better world we could live in if these AR folks would put these same worldwide energies into stopping world hunger????

[doberdogsfd]

Interesting. It does sound as if there is ownership on a many levels, as you said.

Thanks for sharing the story.

Cheryl