Starting over (in relation to breeding)

[andyhilt27]

Could you, as a breeder, take two dogs of not very good conformation and create champion caliber dogs? How many generations (human or canine) would it take to produce show caliber breedings? I do not know nearly enough about genetics yet to add my own thoughts to this. You see I have this 10 year old spayed doberman that I would have bred (health testing dependant) for her intelligence alone. Her conformation is horrible at best. She is small, her topline sags a lot, her head is very round, and at most she weighs 58 pounds currently. She is a great dog though, the most loyal, trainable, and obedient dog I have ever met. She is still in great health for her age. Would it be possible to take a bitch with 0 champions in her 5 gen pedigree and produce champions with her descendants?????

[Elaine]

Interesting Topic, I suspect you will get a range of opinions.. and that when breeder here start typing, they will find this subject could go on forever.

Short answer to your question is that with the right handler, the right package of owner/backer/politics, under the right judges you could probably finish a cat. :D :( You would have to seek out areas of the country (Alaska or Puerto Rico, where the point schedule is extremely low). The real question would be “Why?”

I can see that you love your 10 year-old bitch. We have an 8 year old that sounds similar. I understand why you value her. But the positive attributes you described in your bitch are available now in a correct Doberman package. You are describing what a good Doberman is... today. There is no reason to dip into 5-10 generations of defects simply to get a good example of the classic Doberman temperament.

While the title of Champion is something, it is not the be-all-end-all indication of quality. There is a distinction between a great show dog and a great breeding animal. They do not ALWAYS go hand in hand.

Before you breed a litter you need to study conformation... so that you understand how the dog is put together... and why correct conformation is important to the function of the ideal specimen of your breed. Study a wide rang of breeds to better understand the effects of different kinds of assemblies (e.g. Bull Terriers, Greyhounds, Bulldogs, Beardie Collies, German Sheppards, Cardigans, Old English... Goldens.. they are all so different... you need to think about why). I think breeders should have to be able to assemble a skeleton from a stack of bones poured on a table. They need to know the dog, inside out... and to understand why the “ideal” varies so much depending upon what the breed was intended to do. Study form and function in other quadrupeds, not just canines.

Breeding should always be about what is best for the next generation and the generations beyond. Truth is that breeding involves an element of luck. Breeders make an educated gamble about how the genes will combine. You do not want to be gambling recklessly with precious living creatures. When you loose, the breed looses. You need to stack the deck in the breed's favor as much as possible.

Even when you strive for excellence, you don’t always succeed. Starting with rock solid pedigrees (top and bottom), good phenotype and reasonably well thought out breeding combinations, breeders still fall short of the mark. If you start with mediocrity, you will get what you bred for. What would be the point of starting with nothing? Caring for all those generations it would take to fix things would burn up your resources. It would take too many generations to correct all the faults, and what positive contribution would you be making with the puppies that predictably failed to meet expectations?

I would not consider using an animal that did not have some outstanding attribute (that I needed in a breeding program). I would not consider an animal that did not have a strong bottom line. The pedigree gives us an indication of what the dog will produce. I look at sire and dam, but I also place an emphasis on the littermates of the dog I am considering. If possilbe I look at puppies the sire has produced, and what the dam of the puppies looked like.

I am not interested in breeding to a flyer...i.e., a dog that does not reflect his pedigree or is the only dog of quality in a litter of average. Rather, I want to breed to the animal that comes from a breath and depth of quality, and one that stamps his offspring with exactly what his pedigree says he should produce.

I posted 20 Principles of Breeding Better Dogs by Raymond H. Oppenheimer. I urge you to read it about once a month. Also, I think breeders have a responsibility to read the standard about once a month. You think you know what you know, trust me, there is always more to learn and the next litter will be a surprise.

I think it is important to seek out outstanding accomplished breeders, both in your breed and in other breeds. And by accomplished, I do not necessarily mean record holders of "Most This or That" title, who "succeed" because they will lie, cheat, steal, connive, and politic for each and every win... chasing some idiotic record that no one else cares about... focused on "winning" above all else, even above the quality of the dogs they exhibit. Rather, I urge you to seek out breeders who did what you want to do, based on the sheer merit of the dogs they breed. I do not look so much for record holders, rather, I look for breeders who continually improved their lines with each generation, breeders who produce dogs that you are pleased to see in your pedigree, not dogs that you cringe at.

Also, in my experience from observing breeders for the past 30 years or so, there are some attributes of conformation I cherish in a breeding program (e.g., a good shoulder assembly with a smooth, well laid on and well laid back scapula, good flow of neck into whithers; and good return of the upper arm, witha "well defined" but not an exaggerated forechest). I would be willing to excuse a few minor faults if the dog has the outstanding virtue[s] I think my bitch needs.

[andyhilt27]

Elaine I think I may have not been clear in the question. This is of course hypothetical. You have no breeding stock available except healthy dogs that lack in conformation. I see problems with the American bred dobes. We have started at a disadvantage to Europe. How many years of breeding Dobermans do we have here in the U.S., 70+? Not to mention a lack of a gene pool in camparison. I am getting off topic here....Newly formed question: Would/could you as a breeder in esscence start over from the lines of today and produce the same quality in terms of conformation without using any titled dogs in their five gen pedigree? Dog show politics aside!!! Thanks for your response Elaine.

[Elaine]

Would/could you as a breeder in esscence start over from the lines of today and produce the same quality in terms of conformation without using any titled dogs in their five gen pedigree? Dog show politics aside!!! .

I have zero experience with the European lines in Dobermans... so I have no opinion about their value in a breeding program. Closest I can come to a comment is that in the mid 90’s I co-owned a Giant Schnauzer who won the Breed at the Giant National three times (in total: 1995, 1997 and 1998). I only co-owned him in 1995 when he won the first time. Anyway, the dog - Brucie was a Dutch import... and an out cross. And, he was an outcross to most everything in this country, so it was a challenge to find a good breeding niche with him. I never used him. When I bred my Giant litter I used a Spanish import - Lucas ... I was the first to use him, before his owner used him and before he had a single point. In fact, my bitch was home pregnant on the day Lucas won the breed at the National... in 1992 (I think) as a class dog, the first time he stepped a paw in the ring. I got four champions from the breeding. One went BOS at the Garden in 1995. So, I guess I can say that I would not hesitate to consider a dog that I felt had the virtues I needed, regardless of where he came from. But given the gamble that is breeding, I like to hedge my bets by going with proven combinations if possible... or by going with dogs where I’ve seen most all the dogs in the first few generations.

As for the rest of your question... Hmmm??? I have to think about this... :rolleyes: Not sure if this is responsive to your question, but I used to say that breeding was not so much about using perfect animals, but more a matter of finding the right combination of any two animals. I believed that any good breeder could produce a BIS dog in three generations, regardless of the starting point... it was the combinations that mattered...not so much the dogs themselves. But I have become more cautious over the years. Each litter represents such total commitment... I really have no desire to gamble. And I doubt I could find a dog I liked that did not have a dog I knew somewhere close in the pedigree. Btw, Cartier, our eight year old rescue bitch who has a temperament to die for... her bottom line has no champions in 5 generations... she is OFA dysplastic.

[andyhilt27]

I am not saying Ch. dogs have more of a disadvantage to health problems....some do, some don't. I also appreciate the views of some on line breeding! Outcrosses can introduce a lot of crap. I may have implied that I don't agree totally with today's breedings. There may be some truth to that. My views are subject to change on any subject concerning dobermans:D. I am a rookie and am in the growing process! I am definitely open to anyone's views! I may have to start numerous threads to say what I am getting at. Elaine, clear you head of any top doberman lines. Hypothetically you have access to 0 dogs of quality conformation in terms of a complete package. The U.S. has been destroyed of any champion producers. You have a love for this breed, you want to better this breed. Would you be able to bring this breed back to what it is today or better? Would one be able to start over and get to the same caliber in 10 years? I often hear that all lines have their faults hidden somewhere. Does the opposite also hold true? This thread is not in anyway a shot at the "styles" of breeders today. I can not offer enough/any insight to this thread or the breed right now as I have a lot of research to do in terms of genetics.

[Elaine]

I guess the answer is "No." I don't think I could produce DeNiro from scratch in ten years. But heck, maybe a Master Breeder could. :D Gotta say, I love your enthusiasm for this. :)

[andyhilt27]

He has Cryptonite line breeding correct? Is he one of your Bretina-Trotyl puppies? In your opinion, and this is not a loaded question, is he a better package than Cryptonite? What was his name Khafka??? Damn fine dog.

[Elaine]

Boy, are you trying to get me killed? :D
This is what Richard G. Beauchamp wrote about Kafka... I think it sums things up rather well. Kafka died in 1995, the breed has gone forward, as it should. Do I think he could win in 2008 the way he won in the late 1980's - early 1990's? Probably not. Was he perfect? No. But he was an excellent show dog and sire. Brentina (DeNiro's dam) is a line-bred Kafka daughter, and yes, Trotyl is DeNiro's sire. DeNiro is 10 months old. He has a ways to go before we can claim he is better than his paternal sire :p... but I think he compares favorably.

Ch. Brunswig Cryptonite “Kafka”

IF records were in fact “made to be broken,” this astounding Doberman Pinscher was born to do so. He holds title to every Working [Group] Dog show record in existence.

“Kafka” completed his championship on February 21, 1988. He retired on April 5, 1992, winning 2 out of 3 Best In Show that weekend.

Of the 428 times “Kafka” was shown, he won the Breed 392 times (92%). The 392 BOB wins resulted in 350 Group Placements (89%). Of the 350 Group Placements, 258 were Group Firsts (74%). The 258 Group Firsts resulted in 124 Best In Show (48%). And it is important to note that the previous Working Dog record of 121 BIS has not been broken since 1956.

Numbers themselves can not be the measure of a great dog’s true worth, unless we know what those numbers actually reflect. In this case, they tell the tale of one of our greatest showdogs.

Show statistics do come to an end when a dog retires. Now we look to the number of quality champions he is producing. Bred only on a restricted basis due to his show career, “Kafka” has sired 27 quality champions to date [1991] *. He is already making a positive impact on the breed.

He will continue to be offered at stud at the home of his devoted handler, George Murray where he will continue his positive influence on the breed.


Hats off to the top Working Dog of all time!

Richard G. Beauchamp

*In all Kafka has sired over 120 AKC Champions and was for many years the top producing sire in the history of Dobermans. Kafka's grandson Ch. Cambria's Cactus Cash has now beaten this production record, but as of 2007, no Doberman has ever beaten Kafka's show record.

[andyhilt27]

Sorry I didn't think before I wrote that:rolleyes: No disrespect intended toward the great Kafka! A legend none the less. Perhaps your response answers to me why there is dog breeding and not dog cloning. Among other reasons too. Different thread for that.

[andyhilt27]

Elaine, or anyone else that cares to chime in, if you were to introduce Euro genes would you do it on the dam or sire side?

[Elaine]

You might want to contact Ray Carlisle http://www.caradobe.com/ or Mary Rogers of Marienburg. Both Ray and Mary have decades of experience that would be of interest to you.

If I may (and heck, why not), are you of a mind that European Dobermans offer something the breed here needs, and if so, what? Maybe you're thinking they are square with great bone and substance... and excellent temperaments... something like that. Ray and Mary may have some thoughts.

As an aside, have you looked at some of these dogs from this kennel in England http://www.jojavik.com/about%20us.htm

[wandam]

you may also want to look at Kansa dobes. His boy Tyler is a lovely fellow.

Wanda

[tosca]

Royalwood Dobermans was started with a nice bitch, structurally sound, with a UD title, but not of conformation quality; unshown in conformation. She was bred to a Top 20 conformation dog; a Kafka son - and produced 8 puppies. Of those 8 puppies, 5 were shown; all 5 were finished - 2 were breeder/owner/handled to the finish, I finished the other 3. Of those 5, 3 were bred - one time each. One produced 2 champions, of which one was a Top 20 conformation finalist; the other a Top 20 obedience finalist. Another produced a Top 20 agility winner. The last produced a champion. This was the foundation for my beautiful Emma, BISS Ch. Royalwood Color Me Blonde, who is one of 6 champions in her litter.

In short, it can be done, but I would offer that this experience is rare - i.e., to start with a non-conformation quality bitch and have such extraordinary success.

[andyhilt27]

Excellent input......I must say that I am now gun shy to contact anyone via email or through phone calls in light of recent events that have been brought to my attention. Perhaps some in the dobe world will warm up to me once I prove my abilities as being owned by a dobe. I don't yet want to get started on a Euro vs. American dobe debate. My views are that it may be beneficial to introduce some Euro dobes into our breedings. From what I can see even classifying the Euro dobes as a whole is misleading. German dogs that I have seen are very much the same in terms of our conformation in comparison to Russian breedings. I saw a Kansa bitch take her class last weekend. I'll have to look up her pedigree to see if she was of any Euro lines. Keep brainstorming though!

[andyhilt27]

And Elaine to answer your question. In terms of health I do think the Euro dobes have an advantage. A champion line bred vwd clear #1 black male is not nearly as scarce over seas.:) I like the looks of some U.S. over the Euro. But the bone of the Euros are unrivaled from what I can see. I see some beatiful dogs that appear too fragile for my liking. Are they better dobes? Conformation is in the eye of the beholder. Performance? Who is to say? I am open to suggestion.

[andyhilt27]

This thread is not breed specific! Anyone who has a thought or experience in breeding should by all means put their two cents in. Some of the newer breeds could benefit from this thread as well. Or even perhaps breeds that are not nearly as competetive as the Doberman. I myself have been beaten in the ring by some pretty hideous looking toy fox terriers. We took a major on our bitch's first show and thought it was going to be very easy. NOPE. There aren't very many breeders of good quality TFTs. So in terms of breeding the TFTs, it would be like starting over in dobes.

[Elaine]

He has Cryptonite line breeding correct? Is he one of your Bretina-Trotyl puppies? In your opinion, and this is not a loaded question, is he a better package than Cryptonite? What was his name Khafka??? Damn fine dog.


For educational purposes only... I did this comparison of Kafka and DeNiro. In the photo Kafka is a little over 8 months... and DeNiro is a little less than 10 months... so the comparison is skewed slightly.

Personally, I think comparing dogs from different generations is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The breed moves forward in each generation. They should look better. And, any photo of ANY dog is only a moment in time. SO comparing two photos is a reflection of the photographer and the handler as much as of the dog himself/herself. As “The Bean” always says, “The photo does not tell the whole story, you have to see the dog in person and have your hands on him/her.” (amazing how The Bean speaks with backslashes) :D

That said, I think even a blind person can see that DeNiro represents a few significant improvements over his grandfather.