views on introducing european lines

[andyhilt27]

What are you views on introducing European lines into an American breeding program? Is there anything you like about the Euro dobes vs. American dobes? For starters I personally love the squareness of some of these dogs.

[kansadobe]

We have been to Europe (Italy) to breed 3 times and will probably be going back again at some point. We have also imported 2 European Dobermanns. So far, we have finished the AKC Championships on 2 half European dogs with 2 more near their finish.

I have written a comparison of the American vs. European types in both the Doberman Digest and the Doberman Ring (now the Doberman Pinscher Magazine). It was also reprinted in a British Dobermann Newsletter.

We go to Europe primarily for the temperaments and the bone. They also, in general, have better heads than we have over here, but there are also things we like better about the American Dobermans. There are excellent Doberman(n)s all over the world and not just one continent.

[andyhilt27]

I am sure you know of puppy mills over there to stay away from???? I don't care to mention kennels that may have questionable practices. But, let's talk about the kennels that are reputable. Have any you care to list kansa?

[kansadobe]

Just like all over the world, there are good serious breeders and indiscriminate breeders in Europe. It is a matter of doing your homework. It is not hard to determine whether you are dealing with serious breeders, or not. Also like buying a dog here in the US, would you really want to buy a serious top quality dog from someone you have never met????

I am forutnate to have an employer that sends me all over the world on my job. I seek out Doberman(n) breeders and Doberman(n) activities wherever I go. I had been to Europe many times and had met and got to know the breeders of both of our imports before I discussed purchasing a dog from them. They are equally careful about who they sell to. We have the only Dobermanns from either of these two breeders that have been sold to North America. We like the Italian Dobermanns. They have been the leaders in Europe over the past 10 years or more. Look at any of the top winning Dobermanns in Europe and most will have close relatives bred in Italy.

You seem to want to name names. What is your experience with European breeders? Do you have any personal experience with any of them, or is it just from surfing the internet?

[andyhilt27]

no experience yet doug. I would like to have some experience though. I would love to go to europe but can't at this point. I have read a lot about the crappy Euro breeders here. I think that there seems to be a few excellent ones here in the U.S. with Euro lines as well.

[andyhilt27]

Please don't misunderstand my last post. I didn't mean that all Euro dobe breeders here in the U.S. were crappy.....Just have read some things about quite a few. I had talked to one kennel in Europe about a puppy last year and they have champion lines. They didn't ask me too many questions, they pretty much just discussed price. I have yet to talk to them since.

[kansadobe]

No offense taken. You are right most of the Euro Doberman breeders here in the US are a bunch of fast buck artist idiots. It is one of the reasons that the legitimate Doberman people here in the US have no regard for the European Dobermans. All they see are the 3rd rate discards and produce of the high volume breeders in the former Yugoslavia and Russia. They judge the European breeders by the worst ones that sell to Kimbertal and other indiscriminate breeders over here instead of the best over there that are every bit as dedicated as our best. Its really sad. The best breeders over there don't need to hawk there puppies over here. I was fortunate enough to get a couple of good ones to bring over here.

[Elaine]

My general impressions (which I admit up front are skewed by the limited number of dogs we’ve seen) is that the best of the European imports are square, with good bone and substance, and nice shoulder assemblies... but their croups and tails sets are lower than what we like to see in our dogs. In general - they would not be competitive in the ring here. Now, I have not seen entries in Europe and I have not seen the Italian dogs. And I think we here in the USA train our dogs from early on to allow their tails to be set a certain way... but still, I do not see our croups and tail sets on the European dogs and vice versa.

You have seen more European dogs, what are your thoughts.

[andyhilt27]

Fantastic thoughts Elaine! I thought this thread was going nowhere. I admit introducing Euro lines into American lines is risky. I would like for the more experienced doberman lovers to offer views of the pros and cons associated with doing so.

Am I correct in assuming that the quality of the litters will not be very consistent at first???

Elaine by the look of your litters you seem to have a phenomenal amount of consistency! I know you have worked hard at it and any champions out of your dogs is indeed well earned.

[andyhilt27]

Also, this thread kinda ties in with my thread on "starting over". I think this will take a lot of planning and years for the results to be apparent. What do you think?

[kansadobe]

This is the article that I originally wrote for the Dobeman Digest several years ago and then updated it and it ran in the Doberman Ring last year. I could not insert it with the pictures in the same positions, but I have attached the pictures. Actually, I disagree with some of elaine's impressions. Most of the european dogs are kind of long too, but like over here not all of them. I do not feel that in general their shoulders are as well laid back as the average here, but they lay on smoother. I don't think that the good dogs over there are any coupier than here, but most have no, or very little tail, so they never bother to touch it or train the dog to do anything with their tails.




US VS. THEM
Doug Matson – Kansa Dobermans

We are the best! “Sure, everyone knows that the American Doberman Pinschers are The Best in the World”, just ask any American. So here we are with our self-assured smugness knowing that all of the other Dobermans couldn’t possibly be as good as ours. Or could they? We have certainly found that the South Americans and the Canadians can compete with us right on our own turf, but since they came mostly from an American background, we can rationalize that they are really just like us, not like those inferior European Dobermanns. On the other hand, few Europeans have any regard for American bred Dobermans. This is just the kind of attitude that holds us back from progress with our beloved breed. The Europeans see our Doberman Pinschers as gutless wimps, while the Americans see the European Dobermann as an over-aggressive brute. Some have even suggested that the gulf is so wide that we should divide the breed into two separate breeds. Of course, both of these characterizations are a gross over-generalization. I have included examples of European Dobermanns for illustration, but have chosen not to select American specimens for comparison to protect my health and questioning of my own parentage..

I see the range of types and characters within the breed to be a continuum. There is the coarse, clunky, fat, inelegant, oversized, over-done, over-aggressive European Doberamnn on one end, and the too fine, too small, too elegant, too shy American Doberman Pinscher on the other. In the middle are the true World Class Doberman(n)s. They exist in many regions around the world, not just here in the good ol’ USA. The Cream of the Crop with a balance of elegance with bone and substance, balanced drives with a good mind that reacts appropriately in any situation. In this article I will attempt to articulate what I feel are the strong and weak points of each style. I will acknowledge that someone can always find an exception to my comments, but keep in mind that I am trying to speak in general terms.

Character/Temperament - This is one of the most defining characteristics between the European Dobermann and the American Doberman Pinscher. This is also the primary reason that the Europeans never consider American dogs in their breeding programs. Most of the European countries require that the dogs pass a ZTP or some kind of rigorous temperament test prior to them being bred. A description of the ZTP test can be found at www.dobermannreview.co.yu under Articles, General, Rules, ZTP Rules. This test is a more intense and rigorous version of the WAE that we have in the US and includes tests of the dog’s stability of temperament in non-threatening as well as its protective abilities when attacked. If the dog cannot pass the test, they cannot be bred, period. When you get a puppy from generations of ancestors that have passed the ZTP, then chances are high that your puppy can also. The Europeans are simply not willing to take a chance on breeding to or invest the time and money in an American dog that has no background of being able to pass such a test.

Many Americans speak of their “velcro Dobermans”. So far, I have not found many velcro Dobermanns in Europe. Not that they aren’t devoted to their owners, they just don’t cling to them. They seem much more prone to jump up on their humans, but don’t hang on them. Many American Dobes have a very sweet, sometimes baby-like couch potato disposition like a black and tan Golden Retriever. Their European cousins are loving to their family, but they are a little more alert to everything around them. They seem to do nothing half-way, they give 100% in everything they do whether it is playing with toys, being a watch dog, loving their family, in the show ring, or on the performance field. However, some Euro dogs can have too much drive to make good house pets (my opinion). They can be too busy, like a 90 pound Border Collie that doesn’t know how to relax or settle down. This may make a good performance dog, but does not make a good family companion and many pet owners in America simply don’t know how to deal with this type of temperament. These are not the best of Europe either. The proper character is that of calm self-assuredness with a free and easy temperament; the ability to monitor their surroundings and the character to react properly to threatening situations as well as non-threatening and the mind to discern the difference.

Overall Appearance – The graphic at the top of this article does not represent the best or worst of either type of Doberman(n). It does illustrate the general difference in overall appearance between the two types. The American Doberman is typically more refined and elegant. What I think of as similar to the body of a ballet dancer or a wide receiver to use the football metaphor. The European Dobermann is typically more substantial with a noticeably thicker depth of body similar to a gymnast or a running back in football. I remember many years ago Herman Fellton wrote in an article that a Doberman should be elegant like a rhinoceros. At the time I though that he was crazy, but after years of experience I can see what he meant and have to agree. A Doberman(n) can have heavy bone, be substantial, and still be elegant. Elegance does not preclude substance.

Heads - There is no doubt that the Europeans have put more emphasis on heads than the Americans. This is an area that we Americans as a whole have neglected very badly over the last many years in part because of the popularity of a few sires where good heads were sacrificed for other qualities. The European Doberamann will generally have better planes, darker eyes, and better fill under the eyes. They will also have better underjaw and teeth are rarely a problem primarily because 1 missing tooth is a serious fault and 2 missing teeth is a disqualification.

Necks - This is the most obvious area where our American Dobermans excel over the Europeans. Few European dogs have the crest of neck and length of neck that is common in America. Most of the Dobermanns found anywhere in Europe have a shorter and straighter neck. It also does not flow into the shoulder as well as is typical for our dogs. It appears that the neck is just stuck on the body, not a ewe neck, just not a smooth transition. Many think that a longer more elegant neck is weaker, and some even think that it contributes to CVI, but I believe this to be purely conjecture and without any basis in scientific fact.

Shoulders: The American dogs usually have a slightly better lay-back of shoulder angulation. On the other hand, our European cousins normally have a better lay on of shoulder with a smoothness that is less common here in the states. Heavy, wide, rough laying shoulders are much more common in America these days than they used to be and certainly more common than in Europe.

Bone/Body - Both the AKC and FCI standards call for “heavy bone”. Heavy bone is common on the European dogs, but very hard to find in the American show ring. On the other hand many of the European Dobermanns lack an adequate tuck up which can spoil the underline and add to a dumpy and inelegant appearance. Rounded croups are also more common in the European show ring than are tolerated in the US. Many Americans criticize the severely sloping, exaggerated toplines of some of the European dogs. Some do have more slope than we will see with our American dogs, but in many cases the slope seems more extreme in the photographs than in reality due to the way they stack their dogs and the personal preference of some Europeans for a sloping topline. Recently, there has been a movement to change the American standard to call for a “level” rather than “straight” topline. This is certainly desirable when the dog is moving. However, I have observed many of our Dobermans that appear to have a level topline while standing, but when moving appear to be high behind and look as if they are running down hill. This is because when the dog is in the stack with his legs straight under him he is the tallest he can possibly be at the withers. When in motion the front legs are forward and backward from this position that will make the front drop slightly which can lead to the unlevel topline in motion and the high behind look. This high behind movement seems to be becoming more common, but should not be tolerated. Another noticeable difference in the bodies is the length of loin. European dogs are generally shorter coupled and almost never long in loin. If the European dogs are long in body, it is almost always from the length of ribcage, while if the American dog is long in body, it is almost always because of a long loin.

Rear Assemblies - Overall, the rear assemblies appear to be better on the American Dobermans, but this is due in large part because they are much easier to evaluate. Because of the stance in which the European Dobermanns are exhibited it is more difficult to evaluate the correctness of their rears. Many times the dogs are pushing against the collar so hard that they appear cow-hocked even if they are not when standing naturally. Because of this some cow-hocked specimens do succeed in the show ring that would never pass here. However, generally the European dogs are more heavily muscled in the rear, especially in the lower thigh, which is nearly always thicker than what you will see on the American counterpart. The European dogs are also usually more moderately angled with shorter hocks and fewer examples of over-angled rears and long lower thighs (tibia/fibula) than you might see in the US.

Feet - This is an area that the Europeans could emphasize more. It isn’t that they all have bad feet by any stretch of the imagination, but tight, compact cat feet are certainly more common in our show ring than over there.

Coat and Markings - I don’t see how any one could argue that the deep black and dark brown coats of the European dogs are not more attractive. Likewise, the rich dark mahogany rust markings are certainly more distinctive than the medium to light tan that is too common on some of the dogs found in the US. Many Europeans criticize the American dogs as having too large and too light of markings. On the other hand, some of the European dogs have very small, indistinct and muddy markings. However, I feel that these are the outliers and that size and clarity of markings is not a problem with either style of dog.

Gait - I do not think that there is a discernable difference in gait between the two styles of Doberman(n). There are good and bad movers on both sides of the Atlantic. There does seem to be more emphasis on sound movement in this country, and rightly so. In Europe the individual judging and critiques include evaluation of the movement both down and back and side gait. However, when it comes to the final placement judging more often than not the dogs are placed entirely by the way that they look standing still. In many cases it is more difficult to evaluate the movement of the European dogs because of the style that they show them and the lack of skill of some of their handlers.

Which brings me to the subject of Handling. It is widely acknowledged around the world that we in America have the most skilled show dog handlers in the world. Many can manipulate poor specimens to make them look acceptable, and make mediocre specimens look great. I would like to emphasize to the American readers that when they see photographs of European dogs they should keep in mind that these dogs are not normally hand stacked in the fashion that we think of stacking a dog. They are usually walked into the position that you see with only a minimal amount of positioning of the feet, so it is a little more of what you see is what you get. However, the presentation of the dogs in Europe is not as “natural” as many of the Europeans would claim. The best trained dogs can be manipulated by the best European handlers with the slightest of collar pressure from behind to straighten up their stance just as many of ours are conditioned to respond to collar pressure from the front. I might also disagree with my European friends whether a dog straining at the collar to alert on the double handler or the “bait” that they have is any more natural than the way we present the dogs here in the US either stringing them up or baiting them from the front. There is no doubt that the standard for dog handling is higher here in the US than what you will find anywhere in most of the world. Again, it certainly is not that the handlers in these other countries are all horrible, but that there are many more owner handlers and the overall emphasis is not as great on the presentation. The judges may also judge more on the dog than the handling, which is the way it should be. Sadly, the Dobermann is on the decline in much of Europe due to the implementation of ant-docking and cropping laws. The natural eared and tailed Dobermann changes the whole look and visual image of the breed, but that is a story for another article.

World Class Doberman(n)s can be found in many corners of the world, not just here in the United States of America. It is a shame that there is so much personal prejudice involved in many places in the world not just here in America that prevent us from seeing the best qualities of the dogs wherever they were bred. We should all strive to objectively evaluate the dogs and look at Doberman(n)s beyond our borders. It will help to expand the gene pool and improve our dogs in areas where shortcomings have become pervasive within our domestic gene pool and difficult to correct.

Happy Breeding!!!

[kansadobe]

Since I could only upload 5 pictures, here are some more. By the way, the bitch in the middle of this group if CH Trystorme's In Anticipation, the mother of Trystorme's Tarantino, "Quentin".

[kansadobe]

Am I correct in assuming that the quality of the litters will not be very consistent at first???

I think this will take a lot of planning and years for the results to be apparent.

Well, just like with any breeding, it takes a lot of research and a lot of luck. Again, I mean research in going to Europe and seeing the dogs with your own eyes, not surfing the internet and being impressed with pedigrees and titles. There are European phenotypes that are hugely different than the American type, and there are phenotypes that are not so different. Real Quality is Quaility the world over. There are dogs that are prepotent for certain traits (both desireable and undesireable). I have gotten tremendous consistency in both type and outstanding temperaments from Gino Gomez del Citone. He is without a doubt, the best producer of consistent type and outstanding temperaments that I have seen in 30 years. I am not saying that the American Dobermans have bad temperament, but until you have lived with one of these good ones from Europe, you just don't know what you are missing.

Last year we bred one of out Gino Gomez daughters to Tyler and got some very nice puppies that do not look like a European type at all, although they are 3/4 European. Three or four should finish from the litter. The red bitch we kept is pointed from the puppy class and one of the black males will be out soon with a handler that says he will, "finish quick." So just like with any breeding, it is all about homework, choices, and luck.

[kansadobe]

This is one of, if not the most beautiful bitches in the world. Tell me that she couldn't compete anywhere in the world.

[Elaine]

Fantastic thoughts Elaine! I thought this thread was going nowhere. I admit introducing Euro lines into American lines is risky. I would like for the more experienced doberman lovers to offer views of the pros and cons associated with doing so.

Am I correct in assuming that the quality of the litters will not be very consistent at first???

Elaine by the look of your litters you seem to have a phenomenal amount of consistency! I know you have worked hard at it and any champions out of your dogs is indeed well earned.

Andy,

Thank you for your kind words but we are not big volume breeders. In the grand scheme of things we are infinitesimal breeders. We have bred five litters in roughly 25 years in dogs, with champions, Specialty Winners and/or Breed winners from the classes in every litter, but we do not and will never have the numbers to make the claims you are making about our consistency, though we do like a certain phenotype within a range and in the context of our Breed Standard.

While we do not judge other breeders who breed a litter or two a year, we simply can not be responsible for that number of puppies on the ground, whether they are produced by our bitches or by stud dogs we own.

For us, breeding involves a total commitment to each and every puppy produced. For us that means, “Take it slow.” We have no intention of ever doing the volume to be record holders in any breeding category. Personally, I’d rather produce one DeNiro than “All Time Top This or That.” Our knowledge is always evolving... as are our tastes. Who knows, in a few years I may be saying of a Contender son, “I’d rather have bred one 'Contendro' than be a record holder in any breeding category.”

That said, we do make the effort to watch every breeding we possibly can, to observe phenotype and genotype...and to see the directions others are going. We like to support other breeders and other breeding combinations, whether here or abroad. A good Doberman is good for the breed, regardless of where it lives and/or who bred it. A good breeder improves the gene pool in general and is good for us all, whether we own the dog or not. “A Rising Tide Floats All Boats.”

As for observing other breeders, I try to keep a journal of my impressions (as though it were my breeding), including impressions of what I suspect the breeding will produce, my impressions of the puppies at various stages (if possible I photograph the litter at intervals) and impressions of what they look like at maturity. I think you can learn a great deal from the breeding of others, including others outside your breed. Not all breeding combinations work out as planned, there are variables. Heck, if breeding were an exact science I think we’d all loose interest pretty soon. I think that the hook for breeders are those moments of success, when the breeding clicks as you had hoped it would.

Over time you will see that good breeders go forward in each generation... others do not. I think we have done that, but we are small potatoes in the breeding world. :)

[Elaine]

I have included examples of European Dobermanns for illustration, but have chosen not to select American specimens for comparison to protect my health and questioning of my own parentage..

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D cute!!!

[Elaine]

This is the article that I originally wrote for the Dobeman Digest several years ago and then updated it and it ran in the Doberman Ring last year. I could not insert it with the pictures in the same positions, but I have attached the pictures. Actually, I disagree with some of elaine's impressions. Most of the european dogs are kind of long too, but like over here not all of them. I do not feel that in general their shoulders are as well laid back as the average here, but they lay on smoother. I don't think that the good dogs over there are any coupier than here, but most have no, or very little tail, so they never bother to touch it or train the dog to do anything with their tails.


I think that the way we train and show our dogs alters the croup and tail-set (and the look of the croup and the tail-set) to a marked degree. Not sure how we American breeders ever became so focused on stroking the tail and forcing it so far forward. In the photos you've posted, if I mentally add a bit more tail it makes a picture that I am more accustomed to seeing, while not changing the dog structurally.

Hate to admit this, but when I see these dogs I have a mad desire to take the lead, put it up under the dog's chin and ask the dog to stand upright, and even up and over their front, not pushing forward against the lead. I realize that "up and over their front" is a distracting artificial contrivance of our show ring... but I find "pushing into the lead" just as distracting. :)

[Elaine]

Sorry for hacking your fabulous post to pieces... I know that there is a way to respond to multiple quotes, but I can't figure out how. :(
Character/Temperament - This is one of the most defining characteristics between the European Dobermann and the American Doberman Pinscher. This is also the primary reason that the Europeans never consider American dogs in their breeding programs. Most of the European countries require that the dogs pass a ZTP or some kind of rigorous temperament test prior to them being bred. A description of the ZTP test can be found at www.dobermannreview.co.yu under Articles, General, Rules, ZTP Rules. This test is a more intense and rigorous version of the WAE that we have in the US and includes tests of the dog’s stability of temperament in non-threatening as well as its protective abilities when attacked. If the dog cannot pass the test, they cannot be bred, period. When you get a puppy from generations of ancestors that have passed the ZTP, then chances are high that your puppy can also. The Europeans are simply not willing to take a chance on breeding to or invest the time and money in an American dog that has no background of being able to pass such a test.

Many Americans speak of their “velcro Dobermans”. So far, I have not found many velcro Dobermanns in Europe. Not that they aren’t devoted to their owners, they just don’t cling to them. They seem much more prone to jump up on their humans, but don’t hang on them. Many American Dobes have a very sweet, sometimes baby-like couch potato disposition like a black and tan Golden Retriever. Their European cousins are loving to their family, but they are a little more alert to everything around them. They seem to do nothing half-way, they give 100% in everything they do whether it is playing with toys, being a watch dog, loving their family, in the show ring, or on the performance field. However, some Euro dogs can have too much drive to make good house pets (my opinion). They can be too busy, like a 90 pound Border Collie that doesn’t know how to relax or settle down. This may make a good performance dog, but does not make a good family companion and many pet owners in America simply don’t know how to deal with this type of temperament.

I saw this with Brucie’s (the Dutch Import) Giant puppies back in the 1990's. Brucie was a life force, with an abundance of “Schnauzer Character.” He was a bit like an oversized Terrier... willing to fire on all cylinders at a moment’s notice. That made him a great show dog and a tremendous guard dog/ companion, but he was hard to live with, especially in a multi-dog home. He did best in a one-on-one home situation with an experienced Schnauzer owner. Many of his puppies were like him, they fired hotter than the American bred Giants (who are more and more like Goldens). Brucie’s kid’s approach to life made them too much for some people to handle.

I suspect that Europeans are not quite as litigious as Americans. In 2008 in the USA it is not easy to live in a community with a Doberman or a Giant with the strong character and temperament of the European dogs.

While I admire the “true Doberman temperament” I do not see a place for it in the USA in 2008. Dogs like Warkant and Tungsten are about as close as I ever want to come to the temperament you describe.

When Louis Doberman developed the breed over a century ago there were very few organized police forces in the world; safety was a matter of personal responsibility; there was a legitimate need for the dog he developed. IN 2008 we do not have that need, and more on point, society in general does not want dogs with those characteristics in their communities because, in the wrong hands, these kinds of dogs are a danger.

[Elaine]

Overall, you have posted photos of some magnificent Dobermans, with tremendous quality and breed type. Thank you! I can see using several of them in a breeding program that is focused on incorporating their qualities back into US based breeding lines. My only comment is, we (Logres) will never do the volume of breeding necessary to use these dogs properly, but we would consider using their descendants, bred to a something that meshes with our pedigrees.

[andyhilt27]

Doug,

There aren't any good Euro lines here in the U.S? I don't understand why you keep referring back to "surfing the internet"?:confused:

[Elaine]

Doug,

I don't understand why you keep referring back to "surfing the internet"?:confused:
Just a guess, but he may be suggesting that photos only tell a tiny part of the story. One really has to get out and lay eyes and hands on lots and lots of dogs to get an accurate idea of what's what. :) Reminds me a bit of Arthur and his non-existent handling career. Arthur has seen the great handlers... on video and in person. I suspect that he is saying, "Hey, how hard can this be?" In his less lucid moments he fantasizes that he will go in the ring with his version of Esteban, Kelly, Gwen, Andy and Diego rolled into one. As a loving supportive wife, all I can say is that I’ve seen Arthur’s handling skills... he should stick to the outside of the ring. :D Not sure if that was the general direction of Doug's comment, but he may have been tryiing to say, in a very nice way, that there is more to all of this than one can observe from outside looking in.

[kansadobe]

Andy,

It is just that I run into a lot of mostly novice type people that think they have sufficient knowlege about the dogs (even specific individuals) in Europe, South America, Australia, hell for that matter even the US just from looking at pictures of the dogs in magazines or on the internet and have never seen them in the flesh. I call these people internet titans. If you have been around long, you will know that frequently the dogs in the pictures may not look a lot the actual dog, especially if handstacked by certain professional handlers or if they have been visited by a skilled professional with Photoshop.

[andyhilt27]

I have insufficient knoweledge on the subject at hand. Merely asking questions and I greatly appreciate your input! Thanks.

[kansadobe]

.
IN 2008 we do not have that need, and more on point, society in general does not want dogs with those characteristics in their communities because, in the wrong hands, these kinds of dogs are a danger.

Elaine, I have to disagree here, or I think you may have the wrong impression. While our Euro and Euro cross dogs do have more energy, their temperaments are so sound that I never worry about them acting inappropriate beyond jumping up on someone for a greeting or attention that the person may not be expection or accustomed to. They seem to have more self confidence and a better innate understanding of how to behave appropriately. As you mention, they do need a firm hand and an owner that sets boundaries, but this can be a problem with American Doberman puppy owners as well if they do not set boundaries for their dogs (and children for that matter). Any dog can be a danger if it is not prop-erly socialized and knows its boundaries and place in the pack.

I will also say that in many ways I think the half Euros may have more of an ideal temperament for most Americans. They have many of the qualities of both sides and are not as intense as the full European dogs. Any dog can be a danger if not properly socialized and understands its boundaries and place in the pack.

[Elaine]

Elaine, I have to disagree here, or I think you may have the wrong impression. While our Euro and Euro cross dogs do have more energy, their temperaments are so sound that I never worry about them acting inappropriate beyond jumping up on someone for a greeting or attention that the person may not be expection or accustomed to. They seem to have more self confidence and a better innate understanding of how to behave appropriately. As you mention, they do need a firm hand and an owner that sets boundaries, but this can be a problem with American Doberman puppy owners as well if they do not set boundaries for their dogs (and children for that matter). Any dog can be a danger if it is not prop-erly socialized and knows its boundaries and place in the pack.

I will also say that in many ways I think the half Euros may have more of an ideal temperament for most Americans. They have many of the qualities of both sides and are not as intense as the full European dogs. Any dog can be a danger if not properly socialized and understands its boundaries and place in the pack.
I agree with you... and I am not suggesting that the stronger character is in any way less desireable than the more incorrect "Golden with pointy ears." We once had to deal with a sleazy, willful, pig from hell who tired to use the Breeds stereotypical reputation to suggest one of our dogs was a threat. The accusation alone can be a problem... and if the dog in particular had been anything less than the lovely, well-behaved, well-socialized pussycat she was, this pig’s claims might have gained some ground. The experience gave us a bit of insight into the exposure we all have just owning this wonderful breed.

[andyhilt27]

We once had to deal with a sleazy, willful, pig from hell

Elaine, remind me to never make you angry. :D:D

[dobesign]

"We once had to deal with a sleazy, willful, pig from hell"
Okay, now tell us how you really feel about it....no more mrs. nice guy..:D