Going BOW when the major is in the other sex

[Elaine]

Ideally a dog should have to beat two major entries in their own sex to become an AKC champion. Many dogs don’t. They finish by winning in a small entry of their sex and then going Best of Winners when there is a major in the other sex. Some judges are very good about keeping track of where the majors are… and awarding Best of Winners accordingly. The criticism of course is that the dog is really not beating large entries of their own sex (possibly can’t win in large entries of their own sex), so they are essentially not a very good dog or even a true champion.

The flip side is that it’s always been this way in dogs, and majors are extremely hard to come by, especially now a days. Many exhibitors work with each other to build majors and spread them around. Handlers in the Breed Ring will often lay down on the dog that won the major in their own sex, if there was not a major in the other sex, so that the other dog can also pick up a major by going Best of Winners. One way to do this is to send the dog in with a Designated Looser (e.g., me) on the dog you do not want to go BOW, or the handler simply does not push the dog at all in the Breed Ring. It’s a courtesy we extend each other.

Was on the phone last night with a friend from another part of the country. She was at a show where there was no major in bitches, but it was dead on a major in dogs. To hold the major in dogs, everyone showed and a handler kept two recently finished dogs in the classes. Not entirely sure why, but this handler ended up staying on one of the finished dogs, so he won yet another major… and went BoW, when there was no major in bitches. So she effectively won and kept a major for a dog that was already finished, and kept the bitch from getting the crossover major. :(

[RaindanceIGs]

Ideally a dog should have to beat two major entries in their own sex to become an AKC champion. Many dogs don’t. They finish by winning in a small entry of their sex and then going Best of Winners when there is a major in the other sex. Some judges are very good about keeping track of where the majors are… and awarding Best of Winners accordingly. The criticism of course is that the dog is really not beating large entries of their own sex (possibly can’t win in large entries of their own sex), so they are essentially not a very good dog or even a true champion.

The flip side is that it’s always been this way in dogs, and majors are extremely hard to come by, especially now a days. Many exhibitors work with each other to build majors and spread them around. Handlers in the Breed Ring will often lay down on the dog that won the major in their own sex, if there was not a major in the other sex, so that the other dog can also pick up a major by going Best of Winners. One way to do this is to send the dog in with a Designated Looser (e.g., me) on the dog you do not want to go BOW, or the handler simply does not push the dog at all in the Breed Ring. It’s a courtesy we extend each other.

Was on the phone last night with a friend from another part of the country. She was at a show where there was no major in bitches, but it was dead on a major in dogs. To hold the major in dogs, everyone showed and a handler kept two recently finished dogs in the classes. Not entirely sure why, but this handler ended up staying on one of the finished dogs, so he won yet another major… and went BoW, when there was no major in bitches. So she effectively won and kept a major for a dog that was already finished, and kept the bitch from getting the crossover major. :(

It's hard to regulate this. There's plenty of NOT DESERVING dogs that DO get majors, on their own, without getting crossovers. If an entire entry is mediocre - guess who gets the major - a mediocre one. Is it really the fault of the class dog who may very well be a good quality dog if majors aren't available to them? I understand what you're saying, but it's impossible to prevent mediocre dogs from finishing. Be it politics, bad judging, poor quality overall entry - you name it. Sometimes, it's just the lesser of the evils that goes up... and sometimes it has nothing to do with the dog. That's a dog show for you...

[Elaine]

Absolutely... it's dog shows. On any give day, if the entry is small enough, a bag lady with an antelope can win. :)

The way I heard it in the example above (which was at a show in the mid-west somewhere), some exhibitors were annoyed because when the class dog the handler wanted to win the major didn't win his class, she stayed on a dog that had finished a few days earlier (and was only in to build points), so that he won a major he did not need, and then the WB did not even get the cross over.

[Kalecho]

Absolutely... it's dog shows. On any give day, if the entry is small enough, a bag lady with an antelope can win. :)

The way I heard it in the example above (which was at a show in the mid-west somewhere), some exhibitors were annoyed because when the class dog the handler wanted to win the major didn't win his class, she stayed on a dog that had finished a few days earlier (and was only in to build points), so that he won a major he did not need, and then the WB did not even get the cross over.

Well, I was at that show and since she was only showing them to hold the major, I don't think she should have gone in on either one for the class, but she did. Like she didn't want anyone else to get the major but be praised for holding the major. Ughh. Sometimes I want to scream at these dog shows.

[Elaine]

Well, I was at that show and since she was only showing them to hold the major, I don't think she should have gone in on either one for the class, but she did. Like she didn't want anyone else to get the major but be praised for holding the major. Ughh. Sometimes I want to scream at these dog shows.

That is pretty much how I heard it. :cool:

So I guess there are several points here on this thread. One is this: through the years we’ve all been respectful of other exhibitors, with an understanding of how difficult majors can be to come by. We’ve backed off on a dog so another can “shine.” As long as it’s not too overt, and does not demoralize a young show dog, I don’t see it as a huge deal. Now, when I was ringside at Roanoke a few years back, and Diego won a very competitive class of five with Warkant (which included Jeff Brucker and Esteban), and then let Matias take him in for Winners, and Matias couldn’t even stack Warkant straight, I was sickened, not so much because we were clearly the “designated looser” on the day, but because Warkant was totally confused by what Matias was asking of him. It was one of those moments in life where if I'd been a 6'4" male, Diego and Matias would have had "some splaining to do" right then and there. If I’d had video of what went on in the ring; or of Jim White whispering to Matais moments before Matais walked in the ring with Warkant; or of what Diego did the following day, I’d have called a Bench Show Committee, no question. If something like that ever happens again, I will, no question.

But in general, backing off a little so another dog can win is not a huge thing, I don’t think letting the dog of the other sex get the cross over major is such a bad thing. After all, it's the judges choice, most of them can count and know where the points are. Most judges were once handlers, they understand exactly what is going on.

I've been the designated loser many times over the years, which is one reason I never go to dog shows dressed to go in the ring.;) I remember once years and years ago, in Enid Oklahoma of all places (where we were doing a Trial Board), running in to Christy Travilino at a show. At the time Christy had some of the top Shih Tsu's in the country. She asked me to take in a male Shih Tsu that had finished the previous day, just to hold the points so that the bitch could go BW and finish. Sounded like a simple favor; the dog was lovely; Edd Biven was the judge. I actually thought it would be fun to go in the ring with the dog. I’d never shown a Shih Tzu, but I’d shown Lhasas, so I had a general idea of what to do. Honestly, though the dog was very nice, I could not have won with him no matter how hard I tried, so I was indeed the perfect choice for what Christy wanted on the day. Still, I had the strong impression that Edd Biven understood exactly what was going on and was not remotely amused. I respect Mr. Biven. In the ring that day I got a strong sense from him that what I was doing (by not showing a beautiful dog to his fullest potential) was simply disrespectful to the sport. It is an impression that I carry to this day.