AKC Group Realignment

[Elaine]

AKC Group Realignment

In the near future the American Kennel Club will be considering Group Realignment. Currently we have seven Groups. About a dozen breeds have Varieties, which each go into the Group Ring (e.g. Colored Bull Terriers and White Bull Terriers, Toy, Miniature and Standard Poodles, Smooth and Rough Collies, Black, ASCOB and Parti Cockers, 13” and 15” Beagles, and at least 30 different flavors of Dachshunds :p).

AKC is considering doing away with Varieties and expanding the number of Groups from 7 to possibly a dozen Groups.

[Absolute]

12 Groups :eek: Judging will go on forever. :D
Seriously, AKC has been kicking this around for a long time... I really don’t have problem with any of it.

[tosca]

I've always thought the whole 'variety' thing to be rather odd. We don't have 'varieties' in dobermans, boxers, great danes, newfies, labs, etc. Why is it desired in other breeds?

[andyhilt27]

I find the subtile differences between Norfolk and Norwich Terriers not enough to consider them 2 different breeds. It is only the ears right? The bloodlines surely must be mixed before they were segregated. Any one have a better understanding on these two breeds? I can see their logic on it as some judges may prefer the floppy ears over the erect ears. Does this even pertain to this topic, I see we are talking about varities?


Thoughts?

[Elaine]

I find the subtile differences between Norfolk and Norwich Terriers not enough to consider them 2 different breeds. It is only the ears right?

The Norwich and Norfolk Terriers have been separated in England since 1964 and here in the USA for almost 30 years (since 1979). In addition to the ear carriage, the Norwich are shorter backed. I suspect that aficionados like Peter Green could point out even more differences. Though breeds may share a common origins, they do drift apart significantly over time. Stand ringside some time and watch a good sized entry of Wires and Smooth For Terriers. The breeds are now quite different.


Now the three Cockers are only different because of coat color. And Poodles are only different because of sze. Since we allow three of them to go in the Group ring we should also allow all six colors of Great Danes, or Fawn and Brindle Boxers... or one each of the four Doberman colors (Black & Rust, a Red & Rust, a Blue and a Fawn) in the Group. And now that I think about it, that's a dandy idea!!! It would give a Doberman 3 more chances to win in the Group :)

[andyhilt27]

Blues and Fawns.........nope nevermind.:D

[kansadobe]

I don't know whether this group realignment will ever happen beyond a few tweaks, but if it does I hope they move to something the same as or close to the FCI system. No, I sure do not think that theirs is perfect by a long shot, but as the world grows smaller, it would nice to be more uniform across the world than to be the outlier.

I see in Dog News that there is another article about splitting the GSD breed similar to the Akitas. I have even heard of many that think that the American and European type Doberman(n)s should be two seperate breeds. I think this is terribly wrong. There are way too many things in the dog world that are already too exclusive. I am for being more inclusive.

[Elaine]

I don't know whether this group realignment will ever happen beyond a few tweaks, but if it does I hope they move to something the same as or close to the FCI system. No, I sure do not think that theirs is perfect by a long shot, but as the world grows smaller, it would nice to be more uniform across the world than to be the outlier.

I see in Dog News that there is another article about splitting the GSD breed similar to the Akitas. I have even heard of many that think that the American and European type Doberman(n)s should be two seperate breeds. I think this is terribly wrong. There are way too many things in the dog world that are already too exclusive. I am for being more inclusive.
Jane Forsyth said basically the same thing, essentially, “the AKC’s been kicking this around for a long time now... it will never happen.” She may be right. I hear they are going to address it soon. Personally, I’m on the fence. Fundamentally I’m a “status quo” kind of gal... I am accustomed to how we’ve done things for the past century or so... and I tend to want to avoid change. But heck, we have more breeds than ever and the Groups are getting pretty crowded... I can live with what ever AKC decided. :)


I didn’t see the Dog News article. Tell me more about splitting the GSD... is this move advocated by some because the Sheppards we see in the ring today are so angulated they seem unsound... and yet there are others that resemble the pet Sheppard’s we use to see in the 60's.

[kansadobe]

This was an article by Andrew Brace. Apparently, the Crufts BOB winner this year, ZAMP VOM THERMODOS, was a German type and the Alsatian type breeders in the UK have been out of joint since. Some of them are calling again for a split in the breeds. He does point out an interesting observation that in some ways points to the type differences in the Doberman(n). He says that when the two sides point to the differences in type they invariably use the more extreme examples of each of the types. He also mentions that neither of those extreme examples are usually correct to the standard.

[Elaine]

Interesting.

We are not big Sheppard enthusiasts... we hear that they are wonderful, wonderful dogs, bright, loving, devoted... but we’ve never had enough time or interest to get too involved. I still recall the 1987 Westminster winner Ch. Covy Tucker Hills Manhattan... beautiful dog. Seems like only yesterday he was out in the ring. Hard to believe it was over 20 years ago. In my mind Manhattan was a lovely example of the breed... the epitome of what a Sheppard should be. But heck, I haven’ a clue about Sheppards. I thought Ch. Altana’s Mystic should have gone Best at the Garden in 1994, the year Jane died. Walter Goodman obviously thought differently. :p

I hear from a dear friend of Mrs. Firestone, who owned a son of Manhattan’s sister, that Manhattan was sterile... and that Mrs. Firestone was not at all thrilled with the extremely angulated Sheppards.

Not to criticize, but to me, the Sheppard in your photo looks like he has more to worry about than his hips and his excessive bend of stifle. Can that topline possibly be correct? Look at his back through the loin to his hip angle. Is that not of concern to Sheppard people? He looks like he is in pain.

[kansadobe]

I am not a GSD fan by a long shot. My main exposure to them is around the training clubs and a local eccentric guy that shows them casually. The American type GSDs are typically longer bodied and way more angled in the rear with the extremely sloping toplines than the German type; "butt draggers" they call them. I see that this is incorrect in a working dog, but as of late the German type have been tending toward these roachy toplines or "wheel backs" as they call them that being a Dobe person I can't stand and find equally faulty. It seems that both types have their exaggerations to the point of being a caricature of a solid working dog. Come to think of it, that is the comment that some of our European friends make about our eaggerated, over-angulated, and ultra-elegant Dobermans.

[Elaine]

Seems you and I see the GSD about the same... but GSD Breed aficionados see things differently. I guess if we saw things the same way and all held the same opinions, the world would be a pretty boring place. :)

Btw, if you really want to see an “Us vs. Them” ... "we're better than you" mentality.... get involved in Warmblood Sporthorses... these Oldenburg guys here and in Germany are brutal. :D