Should health testing be a part of the AKC?

[andyhilt27]

The conformation ring is for the evaluation of breeding stock. Should the AKC be involved in evaluating health tests as well? I know some breeders do this without a governing body, which is great. In your opinion should there be a permit to breed a registered litter per say? I guess to make my question more clear I will rephrase it. Should health tests be considered by the AKC in "crowning" a dog campion?

[Elaine]

Short answer " Heck NO!!!" for all sorts of reasons.

First and foremost your premise is flawed because of your underlying presumption that veterinary medical science understands the mode of transmission for diseases we face, and therefore knows which dogs to eliminate from a breeding population. They don’t and until we have credible, published, peer reviewed science to guide us, it would be sheer folly to start eliminating dogs from a breeding program based on the sate of vetrinary science in 2008. I think that the general public mistakenly believes there is parity between human medical science and veterinary science. There is not. There is so much that has never been studied, there is so much vetrinary science simply doesn't know. Which accounts for why no two vets will say the same thing. They make all sorts of mis-diagnosis’s and/or misleading assertions that are simply not grounded in medical science. The surest way to back up a vet is to ask them to repeat what they’ve just told you under oath (in a court of law), where it would be challenged as to whether it was fact or essentially guess work. Most vets scatter like cock roaches in the light when it comes to backing up the claims they make. I absolutely cringe at the thought of allowing veterinary science as it exists in 2008 to have such control over what we breed.

Then, you’d also have the problem of who would be in control of passing out these Breeding Certificates. What you are suggesting is something like a system of Breeding Wardens. So who should be in control? As we know, an odd assortment of unqualified people can rise to the top of the heap; we have all seen that over the years. Would you like someone like Cheri McNealy being the Breeding Warden, or worse, someone making a profit from selling some diagnostic device... or someone pimping the semen of a certain dog or bloodline they are connected with. It would be a nightmare of colliding self- interests. We all have vested self-serving interests... all of us... we are genetically programmed to advance our own self interests. So you are suggesting essential another layer of bureaucracy, administered by people with all sort of extraneous agendas. I think it would drive good breeders away, and effectively be the surest way to mediocrity.

And, you are making assumptions about what AKC can and will do that are not consistent with my experience with AKC.

[tosca]

Absolutely not. 'nuff said.

[andyhilt27]

It would be a bit like communism huh? Just a question. :D Don't let the question make you think I feel this way! Elaine(mick), Cathy, I agree. Just a question.

[Elaine]

It would be a bit like communism huh?

Hey, that's an excellent way to put it... love your sense of humor.... and it was a great question!!! Sorry if it came across that we were hitting you over the head with a mallet... it's just that after 30-50 years of this stuff, you tend to develop opinions . :)

[andyhilt27]

opinions.....we all have 'em. Mine are just a bit less informed right now. I have learned a lot over the last few years and have a long way to go. I kinda knew your response would be an ardent (I learned a new word) one!:D

[Dobemaid]

Elaine wrote:
there is so much vetrinary science simply doesn't know. Which accounts for why no two vets will say the same thing. They make all sorts of mis-diagnosis’s and/or misleading assertions that are simply not grounded in medical science. The surest way to back up a vet is to ask them to repeat what they’ve just told you under oath (in a court of law), where it would be challenged as to whether it was fact or essentially guess work. Most vets scatter like cock roaches in the light when it comes to backing up the claims they make. I absolutely cringe at the thought of allowing veterinary science as it exists in 2008 to have such control over what we breed.........

Amen to that! I feel that alot of vets today, make an issue or should I say "ordeal" about things like VWD. They scare the pants off new Dobe owners, with their unsubstantiated views or statistics of how it can cause an owners beloved pet to maybe "die" from bleeding to death: Then they get on their high horse and go on about " that awful breeder producing an "affected" puppy, and sold it to these poor unsuspecting people!"... Even when the dog/has a within safe range clotting time!!!!!! Then they procede to tell the new owner how they had a dog just last week lost to hypovolemic shock from bleeding! Good grief, why don't they tell the whole story of why a particular clients dog succumbed to bleeding out! Like maybe the dog had another reason for low clotting elements, like leukemia related disease, or maybe got into some rat poison or, mabey they weren't properly prepared for that happening before some sort of surgery!
I guess I just get upset, when the breeder gets blamed for everything that goes wrong with a dog/puppy!
And someone that is really not informed properly assumes that the breeder should have known this could happen!! There goes a good breeders reputation!!!
Sorry about the rambling, but you hit on a sore spot!!
(btw, I have a vet that I have had for 30 yrs and he knows the difference between a responsible breeder and one that just knows how puppies get here!! I am very thankful for his common sense approach whenever I have any problems arise in my dogs......he doesn't condescend or condemn, just tries to get to the root of the problem.!)

[andyhilt27]

I agree with what you have said dobemaid....however when will health be at the same importance of conformation when choosing breeding stock? I am not pointing fingers here or insinuating at all that any member here may consider conformation over health. I do tend to believe at this moment that dobermans in particular have suffered from some breeding practices of the past in terms of genetic health.

[Dobemaid]

I agree with what you have said dobemaid....however when will health be at the same importance of conformation when choosing breeding stock? I am not pointing fingers here or insinuating at all that any member here may consider conformation over health. I do tend to believe at this moment that dobermans in particular have suffered from some breeding practices of the past in terms of genetic health.

I understand where you are coming from, as in the past it seems the breeders were blissfully unaware of some of the health problems that were being "set" into the breed. Like they say "ignorance is bliss"!!! could fall into that scenario!! They just didn't have the ways and means of testing that we have today for some of the diseases our Dobes are afflicted with, OR even the understanding of how one Dobe got it and another didn't.
I do believe that most of today's breeders truly DO want to breed healthy dogs. (notice I said MOST!!) It just is not that easy when some things (afflictions) are just not that easy to eradicate in a certain time frame. AND to get everything in one package too!!! i.e. .... good health, good temperments, and good, sound conformation!!
Personally, when I am considering a breeding, the very first thing I look at in the parents is temperment, cause if you have a healthy, long lived dog, that is absolutely beautiful, but has an atrocious temperment, making life miserable for all concerned what good is that!!!?????
But everyone has their own agenda when they begin a breeding program. Hopefully, they have done research on the pedigrees they have and are thinking of using. THEN follow through with what is BEST for the puppies and the breed as a whole! That is learn as much as they can about what health, temperment, and conformation issues there are behind that pedigree and go from there. Maybe over time some of these issues will gradually, but surely be resolved!!! Guess you could call me a dreamer!!!!!
You make a good point!

[andyhilt27]

Unfortunatety there would be no purebreds without inbreeding so one can expect to have health issues. As I said in another thread this is not a cheap shot at anyone's breeding practices. I am not against inbreeding or linebreeding....but in the hands of someone not concerned with health it can be a disaster. I see a lot of breeders in any breed that are getting up in there in age. Which is great as I am very much thankful for their years of hard work. But the younger/future generation of breeders need to be informed of the disadvantages they are left with. I don't hear of too many younger people even wanting to breed for the right reason so that could be a big issue in and of itself. Thanks for all your input on this thread thus far everyone!!!