Dissatisfied With An AD???

[Elaine]

Recently we had a problem with an ad... we feel that, not only did we not get what we contracted for, but that we got something that is the exact opposite of what we contracted for. The experience has been very frustrating, but it got me to thinking, what kinds of experiences have you all had with advertisements... and with ad design people? And when you are dissatisfied, what redress have you had?

[Diane]

As a former Advertising Agency owner, I'd say the problem was that you didn't send in a 'camera ready' ad but depended on the publication's graphics department to do it.

Did you have the opportunity to 'proof' the ad before it was published? Who wrote the copy? Were there errors in the ad?

I would fight for a comp redo and rerun.

Elaine, since this is now long after the fact, what happened to resolve your delima?

Diane
(Don't change a word! type of former copy writer):cool:

[Elaine]

We used a person who does ads on a regular basis... (I really hate to refer to this person as a “professional” because, unlike real professionals, there are no objective standards to distinguish who “is” and “is not” a “professional." Seems that anyone with access to Photoshop is a “professional.” To me, at the very least a true “professional” would stand behind their work and be accountable for a job poorly done. The person we used had the specifics for the ad from the publication. Our only reason for using this person was to assure that our photo appeared in print as it actually is. The ad was a priority page... we spent $1,000 for it (over an above what the ad person charged). When we saw the ad in print, we were extremely disappointed. The printed ad did not look like the version we approved. It was our worst fear, i.e. that the formatting of the page would result in our photo being distorted.

In hindsight, we should have simply sent our photo in to the publication and skipped the “ad professional” all together. We were willing to chalk it up to a bad experience and let the matter drop, but several months later the magazine called us to ask why we didn’t advertise again. I referred them to our ad. The magazine said it was the “Ad person’s fault.” We tend to believe the publication because we can see that other ads from this person had basically the same problem, and, from speaking with other people, they’ve had the same problem.

There has been quite a bit of correspondence about this, when pushed we decided we wanted a refund for the ad persons “contribution.” The ad person says essentially, “Tough, I expect to be considered a professional, but I make no guarantee about my work, I had no idea that the copy I was sending to you might look different on your computer screen than it would appear in print. And, who cares, your dog won anyway, so this crappy ad didn’t harm him much.” At about this point we noticed that the ad person had failed to bill us, so we do not need a refund. But we are still out the $1,000 to the publication for an ad that did not show our dog in his best light (which is the p[oint of advertising). Overall, the ad was a huge disappointment.

We are now pretty much completely turned off by print advertising in general. The more you know about what can be done, the more pathetic these ads seem. There was an ad for a BIS Giant Schnauzer a few years back that was so retouched the background didn’t match from one side to the photo to the other, and the dog was (in my opinion) completely re-sculpted). The handler would have had to go in the ring with the ad for the judge to recognize the dog. :cool::mad: There was one national campaign for a Dobe, where the body of the dog looked like a template from another dog of a few years earlier, which was the rumor going round, and it may be true. For the most part, many of the ads I see are simply too re-touched. We have Photoshop... I can pretty much do what they do... (see the photos of Lord Baltimore below) . The problem is that these re-touched photos go down in history as what the dog looked like, so people new to Dobermans and people looking at pedigrees get a very distorted view of what a given Doberman actually looks like.

Just playing around for a few minutes with a photo of Lord Baltimore, to show some of waht can be done, from left to right:
1. the original photo;
2. photo with tree moved and halter removed;
3. photo with leg removed; and,
4. photo of Lord Baltimore long enough to carry the entire family all at once.:D

[dobesign]

I thought the three legged picture was downright creepy, but the idea of an extended cab version of a horse (some horses have great mileage) what a cool alternative to the show van!:p Actually, I understand your frustration with that whole advert game. It's a lot of money to spend on something that needs to make a one time first impression!:mad:

[Diane]

Elaine, I do understand your frustration, especially that they are multi-faceted.

1. To prepare your Ad, was it JUST the PHOTO this person worked on or did s/he prepare the whole Ad to include Headline, Body copy. etc.?

2. Was the Ad emailed/sent on disk to the Publisher directly from the graphic designer person or did it come to you and you sent it to the Publisher?

3. Was the Ad sent in with or without the photo in fixed position or were the guts of the Ad sent in and the jpg file sent in as a separate file?

4. Was the final approved Ad sent to the Publisher as FIXED or flexible regarding ability to manipulate the size (5" x 7" ORIGINAL and then pulled out to fit the Ad page size)? Was it a full bleed Ad?

5. I doubt the graphic person 'forgot' to bill you. Publishers may have considered s/he an agent and cut them a check for 15% or so for the cost of the Ad. Did you send your money directly to the Publisher or to the Ad person?

Would you please post:
1. the Original Photo as you presented it to the graphic designer;
2. the Ad YOU approved submitted to you by the graphic designer;
3. and also post a 100% scan the Ad as it was published?

It's never too late to get to the bottom of any issue like this and never too late to get satisfaction. I assure you that first we determine where the fault really lies and I never take anyone's word over another until I learn for myself wherein lies the truth.

Diane

[Kissntell]

I had a real professional do my ad work. He had a Mac no Windows stuff. He had stuff called "Dream Weaver" etc.

He built me a gorgous web site.

I found when I used him to make the copy and send it to the publisher, I had a much better ad. It really takes a major purchase of and knowledge of the types of software to make those ads.

When I just went through the publisher myself it was a nightmare the end product.

I agree with you it does matter; because, in the future these volumes are looked back at for reference. I would make them do it again right.

[Elaine]

Elaine, I do understand your frustration, especially that they are multi-faceted.

1. To prepare your Ad, was it JUST the PHOTO this person worked on or did s/he prepare the whole Ad to include Headline, Body copy. etc.? There was no copy per se, it was simple and clean, with only the name and very basic contact info...
2. Was the Ad emailed/sent on disk to the Publisher directly from the graphic designer person or did it come to you and you sent it to the Publisher? It was sent electroincialy by the ad person to the publisher

3. Was the Ad sent in with or without the photo in fixed position or were the guts of the Ad sent in and the jpg file sent in as a separate file? not sure, I think is was in a fixed position. There were no "guts of the ad" it was essentially a photo with a name, something like what I have attached below, but simpler.

4. Was the final approved Ad sent to the Publisher as FIXED or flexible regarding ability to manipulate the size (5" x 7" ORIGINAL and then pulled out to fit the Ad page size)?

5. I doubt the graphic person 'forgot' to bill you. Publishers may have considered s/he an agent and cut them a check for 15% or so for the cost of the Ad. Did you send your money directly to the Publisher or to the Ad person? We paid the publisher directly.

Would you please post:
1. the Original Photo as you presented it to the graphic designer; Oh hell no!
2. the Ad YOU approved submitted to you by the graphic designer;
3. and also post a 100% scan the Ad as it was published?

It's never too late to get to the bottom of any issue like this and never too late to get satisfaction. I assure you that first we determine where the fault really lies and I never take anyone's word over another until I learn for myself wherein lies the truth.

Diane
Diane,
You ask excellent questions... which people considering advertising should address, in addition to the more obvious, "Do I have a photo worth advertising?" :cool:

But I haven’t been very clear here... in this particular instance, we’re done. We have wasted enough time, money and effort on the process... it's over, and we have no intention of revisiting in any greater detail why the particular ad was a disappointment. I have absolutely no interest in calling any more attention to this person, the specific ad, or the publication. The ad is out there for those who have the issue. We can't take it out of the publication that has been distributed. "You can't unring the bell." From our perspective, the damage is done and we intend to move on. We found that this type of advertising was an expensive waste of money time and effort. At this point we have no interest what-so-ever in print advertising.

Overall, we feel print advertising is a thing of the past. It is too expensive, you do not have enough control over the quality of the end product and it simply does not reach the right audience anymore. Even worse, in what must simply be an effort to fill pages, some of these publications run articles that are totally idiotic, promoting nothing of value for the breed. The editorial standards are non-existent.

We are not specialing a dog. If we were, we would use Dog News, Show Sight and the Chronicle, and we would have some type of contract for a propriety spot, every week or every other week... which costs between $70K and $150K per year (as a base line, some people pay much more). We would probably use Miguel Betancourt http://www.infocusbymiguel.com/ Miguel does the ads for Ron Scot’s poodles, including Vikki. But, unlike us, Ron can afford an advertising budget that exceeds the annual income of most people.


I would not use a breed magazine, and at this point in my life I simply have no interest in the retouched Photo shop ads with the cutesy logos that I see in breed magazines. The ads look formulaic and cheesy. If I want to get cute, I can do it myself, for free, and delete it from my website when I get bored or tired of the ad. 10 years ago print advertising may have been useful, but in 2008, if I want information on any topic, I go on line, not to a magazine collecting dust on a shelf. I can post photos on my website 20 times a day, I have total control, it is relatively cheap, I can change the photos every two minutes if I like.

For decades I collected breed magazines and books. I have decades worth of the old Great Dane Reporter, Lhasa Tails, Barks etc. We never passed an old book shop without stopping to look for breed publications. But, to be perfectly honest, I find that I am less and less excited about a book shelf full of retouched photos as my "Reference Library."

I think the internet is the present and the future... and that photos on the internet will be how we memorialize our dogs (horses, and other passions), both now and in to the future. With close to 40,000 hits on our website, we are reaching our target audience, world wide.

[Elaine]

I had a real professional do my ad work. He had a Mac no Windows stuff. He had stuff called "Dream Weaver" etc.

He built me a gorgous web site.

I found when I used him to make the copy and send it to the publisher, I had a much better ad. It really takes a major purchase of and knowledge of the types of software to make those ads.

When I just went through the publisher myself it was a nightmare the end product.

I agree with you it does matter; because, in the future these volumes are looked back at for reference. I would make them do it again right.
Seems that 3-4 years ago lots of people were recommending Dreamweaver. We have the program, but could never get the hang of it. For us, as rank amateurs, who use the website as a family photo album and value being able to change is daily, Front page was just so much easier.

[Kissntell]

Elaine:

I was getting 900+ hits a day on my web site. It was a new business for weight loss. The web site was full of information.

When I decided to go for the newspaper, which is the local major newspaper, I got a bill of $4,000.00 and not one call.

I think that the old ways of advertising are out period!

I also think that the newspaper was less than honest with me. They sold me ads but then because I was not their biggest customer, I got crap placement. In fact, I contracted for a flyer to be inserted in the paper for 40,000 fliers and never got a call. I also know that the flyer was not even inserted in the paper. It took too much trouble to stop the sorter and put them in. So they charged me and gave me nothing. The flyer looked horrid compared to the copy. That was done by the newspaper. This was the Major paper for San Diego. So...never again!

They told me that you should get a 2% return on your advertising. I got 0 :mad:

I have learned that certain types of media work and others do not. I got several phone calls and emails from my website. But I was really looking for local business. In dogs that is different.

[Elaine]

Advertising is a tricky thing, in part because your target audience varies and the goal can vary so widely. As you know, it’s not about numbers. Sheer numbers of views, hits, responses etc. mean nothing if they are the wrong audience. You really have to know how to reach your target audience. For example, we have a very teeny tiny focus in both the dogs and the horses. We do not want to attract John Q Public, so we really try to avoid more main stream advertising. Rather, we are interested in a very small group, i.e., those who have experience enough to understand what we have and what we are offering. They say "one photo says a thousand words" and that is very true. If you look, we seldom make any claim at all about our dogs or horses. If the audience is not at a point where they see it for themselves, we don't point it out to them, because they are ultimately not of interest to us.

I can use Cooldanz’s cover photo (attached) as an example. Experienced dressage people (who were part of our target audience), know that you can not simply get on your horse and get that photo. Cooldanz’s balance, his carriage, his forwardness off of the leg, the fact that he is coming through from behind and not even remotely behind the bit... all reflect thousands of hours (and frankly thousands of dollars) of correct training. You do not get this photo with a $5,000 with a trainer, 90-days-with-a-cowboy approach to training, which is how many people try to market a dressage horse. To get Cooldanz (a stallion) to the point where we could get that photo took roughly $20,000. That photo sold Cooldanz to England, because it said everything to the right audience. Now, to John Q. Public, the photo only says "pretty horse, can I ride him?" Or, "My neighbor has one just like him." :rolleyes:

Same with Commander's jump footage (which can be viewed here if the blasted link works http://logresfarm.com/Commander.htm ) it is the second video button on the page, next to the text "video of Commander jumping." The first video link button is to a video of Commander's sire.

Though he is only a baby, going over a relatively low oxer, Commander's form in the video is all it should be for his age and was enough to sell him to England as well. I don't know how to post Commander's video... so I am posting a few photos of him... which, though of value, were not the "money shot."

[Kissntell]

I've always been floored how when people who know no better pretend or state that they do.

Recently, I had heating and air put into my house. One of the guys really liked Macy and asked me, "Are her ears cropped?" So... usually people put their foot in their mouth quite soon. He claimed to have experience in Dobermans and owned a few. Well...Are her ears cropped? Duhh...

The same goes in horses. "Everybody" can ride. I guess like everybody can swim. But few people can even begin to ride a dressage horse. I would never in any day put a person on that horse who was an "everybody." What a way to mess up months of training!

The head set on this horse is beautiful. Do people know what it took to get that? Do they know how many trials it took to find the right bit which the horse liked? It is not one size fits all that's for sure.

How many hours in the cirsingles did it take for this headset? And...On a stallion? Of course no one except those who know what they're looking at know those answers.

Elaine, it is interesting that you talk about the 90 days, then the training. That is always how its sold. You are correct the 90 days is the "cowboying" and the rest is the training. Brings back some old memories! :)

[Elaine]

Though I might use a surcingle to lounge a very young horse... I don’t believe Ms. Schobel ever used a surcingle on either Cooldanz or Commander. In general, I suspect that Elly would consider a surcingle a bit of a training gimmick... and Elly has no tolerance what-so-ever for gimmicks. She trains the horse... “trains” ... not “breaks,” not forces, or the 1001 other hideous things that people do to horses under the guise of "training." There are numerous trainers that can take a horse to GP... if one is satisfied with a 60% score... but Elly is one of the few trainers in the USA that can take a green horse to GP with the potential for international competition, and to do so, she trains.. no short cuts and no gimmicks. I should add that the set up of the neck and the head carriage are a reflection of the structure of the horse as well as training. You can see the structure here in Last Ruler... who is 3 months in the photo. It looks a bit as though he is doing a piaffe. Now granted, Last Ruler doesn't have the maturity or strength yet to lift, and he should sit more, and be coming up under himself more... but you can already see his balance, carriage and uphill frame... even at his age.:)

[Elaine]

I've always been floored how when people who know no better pretend or state that they do.

Recently, I had heating and air put into my house. One of the guys really liked Macy and asked me, "Are her ears cropped?" So... usually people put their foot in their mouth quite soon. He claimed to have experience in Dobermans and owned a few. Well...Are her ears cropped? Duhh...

I like the one where they tell me that Dobermans will "turn on you." Some guy working on our furnace told me that my Dobermans would turn on me. I responded, “That’s an old wives tale. Like the old wives tale that people in the south are so stupid their heads explode. There may be a grain of truth to it, but it’s rare. ”

[doberdogsfd]

While we are on the subject ladies.
My favorite is when someone that has never shown a dobe or for that matter owned one, feels the overwhelming need to attempt to dazzle me with their knowledge of the breed. It is typically their borther had one and it was the "Real" dobes(inferring the AKC Champion standing infront of them isn't),the King Doberman or from Kimbertal in my area.

What prefaces that comment is typically " Oh puppies......they are going to get bigger, right?" I am of course refering to my Monty daughter, Emma who is 4 and Vaako, who clearly is the standard!
My typical response, " Is your brain going to ever get any bigger? No chance of that happening, is there?"

My darling husband will take time to try and spread The Word and explain to the knumbskull and take the sting away from what I said as I stroll off toward the woods at the park....to get a better vantage point for my laser sight to aquire a target. Just kidding of course......

I know....I am militant but fun!
Later.....Cheryl

[Kissntell]

Elaine, I wish to say right now that I don't know much about dressage. But I can look at a horse and see the angles.

And...now I have proved that I cannot spell...surcingle. I had first spelled it that way and then changed it.

Anyway...maybe this is controversal...

Here we go...

Trainers get away with murder in the barns. You know that and so do I. But what I saw in my day was the buy out of the "animal protection" groups. If the barn donates a sum of money the "group" leaves them alone. If the barn refuses to donate the "group" harrasses the crap out of them and finds numerous violations.

So most barns pay the fee. Then they do what they want. The public does not know this. At least it was that way in my area and in my day. I doubt that things have changed much.

[Elaine]

I'm not sure which is the correct spelling of surcingle / circingle... I've seen it both ways... and we don't correct for speling or typos 'round these parts :p or I'd never be able to press save:D :)

I have no doubt that we'd all cringe if we knew what went on behind he scenes with some trainers... in dogs or horses. I guess that's why the good ones stand out so brightly... and why we treasure handlers and trainers we can trust... like Kelly Marquis with the dogs ... and Elly Schobel with the horses.

We could walk unannounced into to Elly's barn any time, day or night, and the horses we're impeccably cared for. As for how she treated our boys... in this left hand photo of Cooldanz (below) he is at Hilltop Farm... during his stallion presentation... with 30 or so breeding stallions walking around. Elly stopped to fix something about her boot... you can not fake that Cooldanz was totally focused on her. He adored her, and she returned it in kind. She loved him. When Cooldanz was sold to England, Elly, by her choice, flew with him to see that he was safe on the trip and that he was properly settled in his new home and properly introduced to his new owner. That is a level of commitment and dedication that is not fake. But there is "one" Elly Schobel... and a 1001 other trainers whom we wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole.

[Niko]

Elaine,
I know this is off topic for this thread, but I have to put this out there. Cooldanz is one of my most favorite horses of all time. His confirmation is, to me, perfect. His markings are beautiful. Boy, to ride a horse like that,,, what a dream!! I should put that on my bucket list!!:rolleyes:

[dobesign]

"they are going to get bigger, right?" I am of course refering to my Monty daughter, Emma who is 4 and Vaako, who clearly is the standard!
My typical response, " Is your brain going to ever get any bigger? No chance of that happening, is there?"

Or when they say, "Damn! My dog looks JUST LIKE yours! (Tungsten, a red doberman). Except that SHE'S a rockwilder!" Or, even better when shopping at Wal-Mart..."Look Hijo, CABALLO!!!". I get a lot of people telling me that T is a lot of dog (he's 91 pounds, and no flab), but NOT as much as a REAL doVerman. Sometimes, I will educate. Sometimes, all I can think of is "Here's your sign."

As for Elaine's incredible horses. There are no words. None. Okay, maybe one...GORGEOUS!!!!

[Elaine]

About Cooldanz.... I agree, he is very easy on the eyes... which is a reflection of the refining influence of the Trakehner Caprimond in his pedigree. I never rode him... he went to Elly as a green coming three year old, competed here on the East coast in Material... was Material Horse of the Year for Oldenburg NA... and then was sold to England. Last we heard Cilla has him with John Whittaker/ Jo Pay... and he is doing very well as a jumper. Doesn't get much better than that. :) Me, I ride his granny and his aunt.

[doberdogsfd]

I am on the floor Brenna!! LOL!
When the rare and interesting breed of " Rockwilder" comes up, Bob promptly askes the question, " Really, I have never heard of a " Rockwilder" , what type of dog is that? " Of course the response is typical...and the person begins to explain the breed.....he then launches into the speech of how not to offend the noble breed of Rottweiler from the town of Rottweil. That it is an acient breed that should be respected....as the people of Rottweil would take offense to being called " Rockwilders",on and on. He has a similar speech for the " Doverman deal, involving Herr Dobermann.

Now, one needs to know my husband, 6'4" and 300 lbs of a lineman, with a high and tight and attitude to match his size. Since he has the quickest mind and wit I know...he out talks everyone but Elaine and me!!! One reason he gets on with both of us!!! LOL!!
To my point, no one ever pushes back on Bob.....even if he directly calls them idiots. So the above it rather fun to listen to at times and i will smile and stay within ear shot to hear it.

Later...Cheryl