Movement in the Show Ring

[Minaz Cassum]

I really do not know under which heading this subject would fall under, so to play it safe it is being classified under General Interest.

Often at shows and in discussions with fellow exhibitors and/or judges, do I hear 'Oh, what a mover' or 'he/she (dog) moves beautifully'.

What are we talking about here? Is movement the 'main' or the 'final' criteria? Especially here in India, I find that people are now moving dogs of different breeds at a very fast pace, irrespective of the breed and it's natural/required gait.

Dobermanns are gaited at a fast pace. So too are Labradors. Why? These are not German Shepherds, whose natural gait is the trot and one which this breed is comfortable in. Surely, in Dobermanns & Labradors, movement should not hold such a critical status.

Let's not forget that the Dobermann is essentially a galloping breed and not a trotting breed. To expect a Dobermann to trot within the confines of a show ring is contrary to his natural gait, which is the gallop. In an open field, how often have you seen a Dobermann trot? He gallops. Call him and he'll gallop. Send him away and he'll gallop. Why then the emphasis on the gait? Surely, in the show ring, the Dobermann should be expected to have a reasonable gait.

Let's hear from you folks on this subject. I am not saying that the Dobermann gait should be unsound, but that structure/conformation is more important than the gait.

I have noticed Labradors also being moved at a fast trot and people complimenting the dog for this. But is the Labrador also a trotting dog?

You folks out there would probably scoff at this post, but it is thought that has been germinating for quite some time now and I woul love for you to dive in with opinions and viewpoints.

Do I make any sense at all, or am I losing it?

Cheers, folks.

Minaz Cassum:rolleyes:

[tosca]

Actually, Minaz, you bring up some interesting thoughts. I, too, have noticed that many breeds are gaited far too fast in the ring. The general thought is that it looks flashy! Well, I think it's to hide movement problems/sins. You can't see much when a dog is moving too fast. Savvy judges will ask handlers to slow down.

As far as a good mover for dobermans, the standard calls for a dog that single-tracks. Per the standard:

"Free, balanced, and vigorous, with good reach in the forequarters and good driving power in the hindquarters. When trotting, there is strong rear-action drive. Each rear leg moves in line with the foreleg on the same side. Rear and front legs are thrown neither in nor out. Back remains strong and firm. When moving at a fast trot, a properly built dog will single-track."

If the dog is moving too quickly, you really can't see what their legs are doing - and - some dogs don't single-track unless they're darned near running.

[Rauschund]

You are right Minaz, a dobe will naturally gallop, that is where you see the real reach and drive....but I don't know too many handlers that could keep up with them in the ring at that pace, do you! I think the down and back are very important, they show if the dog is flipping pasterns, etc. The go around can only give you a glimpse of the dogs reach and drive and how he tracks, but I can't see how else we could do it considering the speed.

[doberdogsfd]

Movement is an important part of the package, not the final or only part to be considered.
If a doberman can not move properly it is typically do to a conformation fault which should then be judged.
Again, typically, if the handler is moving a dog fast, they are usually hiding something in the dog's conformation they do not want the judge to notice.
My opinion is, if they can't move properly, they can't work properly and therefore, regardless of how pretty they are stacked up, they are not correct and to the standard.


Cheryl

[tosca]

With regard to judging dobermans; one important thing to remember is that no one part of the doberman is more important than any other part. Read the standard - there is not more emphasis on the head, say, than on the topline. If you review the scoring system for the Top 20 conformation judging; no one part of the doberman is given a higher percentage of points than another part. Point being - balance is key - the overall dog - keeping in mind, breed type and function.

When judging any breed, breed type and function should be key. Without wrinkles, and tons of excess skin, a bloodhound isn't a bloodhound. A doberman that looks great standing, but can't move - at any gait or speed - is of no value as a personal protection animal as it would be unable to perform the job for which it was originally bred.

[Elaine]

Given the size of our show rings for the breed and the protocol most judges follow, I think that most judges in the USA are simply assessing soundness (how cleanly the dog comes and goes, i.e. as the leg bares weight there is no weakness or lateral twisting at any joint). Hopefully they are getting a small glimpse of balance and reach & drive, and how well the dog holds a firm level top line in the go round. But for the most part our breed rings are far too small to accurately assess much more than soundness. Judges are certainly not judging endurance and speed, which are called for in the very first paragraph of our Breed standard, because - as others have pointed out - speed would be judged at a gallop... and endurance would require more than once or twice around our tiny show rings.

At the Giant Schnauzer National (in Brush Prairie) back in - I think 1993 - the European judge had the handlers going round and round and round... 5, 6, and 7 times around the ring. Handlers were dropping like flies... some were changing into running shoes... some were handing off the dogs to others after a few go rounds. It was very educational, in large part because you could see that even a poorly conformed dog can manage to make it around the ring once or twice, but by the fourth time round, conformation faults that impact gait were popping up all over the place. Most all the top specials were out of the competition in a relatively short time. In the end Vicki Seiler won the Breed, with a class dog, imported from Spain, who was in the show ring for the first time in his life. He was so well built he could have run around the ring for half an hour more... though by the end of a day of showing in most every class, Vicki and several of the other handlers were ready to revolt against the ring procedure.

Btw, about movement, I think we can learn from every dog, regardless of breed, even from breeds that are an anomaly with respect to movement, like Old English Sheepdogs, Bulldogs and that "undulating caterpillar with fur" they call a Pekinese.

Personally, in a side movement shot, I love to see a dog that is balanced, flexes well as he comes under himself and extends fully while holding a firm level topline. I love to see that in full extension, both the front and rear paws are equidistance from the ground. And I love to see the stifle and hock joints flex. I am big, big, big on flexion and extension. Too many dogs are moving from the elbow or hip. Here is a photo that I am very fond of... of a good moving dog. The dog is Wes, a.k.a. CH Fantaja's Gone West, the handler is Diego Garcia.

[dobesign]

I agree with Elaine. And while reach and drive ARE hugely important to the assessment of movement, I also prefer agility WITH correct gait. I've attached a picture of my old boy Pete, in a CORNER, still moving out.:D
Sorry, the picture is kinda dark.

[tosca]

I have to comment re: the photos posted as examples of good side gait. Both dogs are reaching in front of their heads - is this correct? What do they move like down and back? How 'bout their upper arm attachments?

[Elaine]

I have to comment re: the photos posted as examples of good side gait. Both dogs are reaching in front of their heads - is this correct? What do they move like down and back? How 'bout their upper arm attachments?


I am assuming that this is a rhetorical question... for the sake of verbalizing good movement. I can only speak for the one dog, Ch. Fantaja's Gone West, a.k.a. Wes; his down and back is superb... he is tight at the elbows and all other joints, coming and going. He moves on the same plane, there is NO lateral twisting of any kind, at any joint. Wes is over 7 years old. At his age one could forgive him if he showed a tiny bit of weakness, but he does not (which is a reflection of his correct construction and, in part, a tribute to the superb care he gets from Jan). He pushes off his rear, comes under himself beautifully and carries his top line excellently.

The upper arm attachment (a function of the muscling on the dog), is absolutely superb on Wes, and yes, as you can see, he can open the shoulder joint, as he reaches forward, which is, again, a superb attribute. Nothing is worse than a dog that can not open the shoulder... they are effectively moving from the elbow, which is extremely faulty. Such a dog would cover no ground at all, could not possibly show either speed or endurance, and would be incorrect by our Breed Standard’s first paragraph.

A dog that truly could not reach further forward than the tip of his nose (with the equally poor extension behind) would be so lacking in angulation front and rear he would be a seriously faulty animal. Such an animal would be the antithesis of what a correct Doberman should be.

To some extent the dog's reach can be foreshortened by restricting the head carriage, but why would anyone want to do that, except to try to hide a movement fault, most likely that the dog is out of balance for and aft.

[tosca]

Ah, but, again, we harken back to the first post - we are evaluating, at a trot, dogs who in theory were bred for galloping. Therefore, is it ideal to move these dogs so fast, which these dogs are clearly being moved at a high rate of speed, in the ring? Does this "Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed." from the DPCA standard translate into moving your dog at the fastest trot possible? That's what I see in these photos - i.e., moving dogs at an extraordinary pace. Again, most knowledgeable judges will request that handlers who moves dogs at extraordinary speed slow down and move those dogs on a loose lead. High speed, tight leads, will hide a multitude of sins.

[dobesign]

My dog Pete had proper movement coming and going without any flipping. He also had a topline that was like rock. But this was best reflected when he worked in Search and Rescue. Occasionally searches would span 50 miles or more. I grin when people complain about a few laps around a ring to see if the dog breaks down. Another thing that always bothered me was discounting a doberman for pacing. And yes, I understand why. But, in a short backed galloper, that should be weighted differently. There are so many dogs with sloppy movement and weak toplines, over accentuated fronts, and foreshortened humerus issues, these CAN be spotted at a trot. But maybe we should, as humans, also get in as good shape as the dogs we show, THEN we can show them at almost, and I emphasise 'almost', any speed.:D

[Jan]

Hi,
Elaine told me she had posted a pic of Wes, and I find this thread on movement very interesting.
In reading the posts, I have to add that in Wes's case, (and the same item I look for in my dogs), he was not running fast, (running at a trot). He covers a lot of ground effortlessly. While watching him go around the ring, he actually appeared to be in a kind of slow motion as compared to dogs being hurried around the ring. All the while many dogs that were in the ring with him were having to do 3 strides more or less, to cover the same ground. Dogs being hurried, and him, just striding so much less, for so much more ground without effort. He is capable of moving faster as well as slower while maintaining sound movement, but the handler would not have been able to stay with him faster ( and that would have annoyed me, to have had him moved too fast) and the up and back was done slowly and correctly. That is simply his stride. And yes, he was held close to the handler, if not, he would move out in front of the handler, creating a catch up to the dog situation for the handler. Something I have found that many handlers like for the pizaz, but it is not what I want my dog doing.
His gallop is powerful and also effortless, giving him the ability to work for long periods of time. He trained in sch for a time, lots of fun for him, and showed his ability to work for extended periods of time, having to use less energy to complete the same physical work as some.
He's certainly not perfect, but his fore and aft are so well balanced, among some other nice things, that his movement is simply excellent and very correct. Loose in the yard, he moves the same way, same huge stride, same soundness, gallops the same way he did when he was working, it's simply him.
It always annoys me when dogs are hurried around the ring, it gives no credit to the dog, and nothing for anyone to see for any value.
Jan

[pretty dobe]

We have a handler that comes up from Mexico. He shows a red male, I'm partial to red boys, so I really watched him. His pace is VERY fast and that gets your attention first and dog is quite flashy. It took two shows for me to figure out that the slower he moved that it showed the problem with him. His front did most of the work and his back end was weaker. Since I was very new with conformation it took two shows to figure it out. My mentor wouldn't tell me what it was, I had to figure it out myself. So I agree that a fast pace is to cover issues.

Judie

[Elaine]

This is a very interesting discussion, that could (and should) go on for years. :)

In my opinion, Wes is not being moved too fast... one clue is his natural head carriage... as speed increases a dog has a tendency to lower his head. Wes’s head is up and his neck is arched. Wes is being moved with contact, but he is clearly not being forced up. Much like a good dressage rider rides with contact... but the contact is feather light. Wes is moving with sufficient speed to show that he fully extends on the rear stroke... which is so desirable. That is not a function of speed. One could take many other poorer moving dogs, run them like Indy Cars and still not get the lovely rear extension that Wes has. Also, he has opened his shoulder... and his top line is firm... he is coming though from behind... the movement is from the rear, as is should be.

As far as speed hiding faults... I think it is just as likely that stringing a dog up and moving slowly is an attempt to hide movement faults. Personally... I love to see a dog moved in the go round on a loose lead... at sufficient speed to show what Wes is showing (if, big if, if the dog is capable of showing what Wes is showing, and few are).

I am going to go through a few magazines and scan some movement shots (sans any identifying data) to illustrate my point.

[Elaine]

Here are three dogs moving.... these photos have been altered to hide the indenty of the dog... but owners of each dog must have thought that each photo showed good movement... which in at least one instance is down right scary.:eek:


Dog #1 ~ is by for the worst moving of the three... this dog is out of balance, his top line is bouncing... he is overstriding from behind. He is not opening his shoulder in the forward stroke...and the front leg is not fully extended while the back leg is... the leg coming under the dog is not flexing at all... I can't imagine any speed that would improve this dog's movement faults. This is a "hide in the back of the drawer" photo.

Dog #2 ~ is a rather nice dog... nice top line... but he is overreaching from behind, which is a fault

Dog #3~ this dog is slightly out of balance, the front leg is about to hit the ground while the rear leg is still well above the ground... but the animal flexes much better than #2 and is far superior to #1.

[Elaine]

I received a request to remove one of the photos here... the person alleges that it is copy right protected. I am going to check with a Copy Right Attorney first before I make a decision about removing material from this public discussion forum.

I think the use of the photo here falls under the Fair Use exception to the Copyright law. Factors to be considered in determining Fair Use include: 1. The purpose and character of the use; 2. The amount and substantially of the portion uses in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole.

This doctrine of Fair Use has been defined by one court as “a rule of reason, to balance the author’s right to compensation for his work on the one hand against the public’s interest in the widest possible dissemination of ideas and information on the other”

Alll three photos were previously publicly disseminated, to show movement, and we are discussing movement. We did not break into someone’s home or invade someone’s space to access these photos of moving dogs. Rather, the owners of these dogs chose to put these photos out in the public domain, for discussion... and I do not believe we are violating any copyright law by discussing them here. One could ask of an owner, "If you do not want the movement of your dog discussed, why did you publish the photo of him moving?" More than that, I think we have a free speech right to discuss works that are in the public domain.

This is a discussion forum. I intend that we be allowed to discuss topics related to dogs. I deeply resent having someone try to control or edit the discussion, simply because they may not like a comment made, especially in this instance, where these photos were originally placed in the public domain in the context of showing movement.

Overall, I am concerned that the person wanting the photo removed actually desires to censor discussion of the dog’s movement as shown in the photo (paradoxically published originally to show movement), rather than protecting any copy right. I think this is a point that might be worth clarifying in a court of law. So for now, the photos will remain.

A last thought: It is possible that there is a distinction between a moment of movement captured in one frame of a photo... and a dog that moves well in real life. So, I could understand someone coming forward and saying, "Here is another photo of that same dog... showing something different (possibly better). It was just that angle, that moment in time, that odd photo." But the photos posted speak for themselves and depict a moment of movement that is worth discussing in the context of movement. The comments address aspects of movement that are clearly observable. I believe that we are adults, capable of insightful observations and intelligent discussion to further knowledge.

Edited to add... this issue has been resolved. It is Fair Use.

[Janice McGerr]

Elaine,

I have to disagree!;)

#1 Looks like it might be a puppy? And his legs and body have not yet gotten it together. It also appears that he is not moving in a straight line, grant it, it is not a flattering picture.

#2 looks like the picture was take when the dog was on a turn, look at the shadowing where the ribs and back begin, it appears that he is not moving in a straight line also. This dog shows like you said a good top line, well muscled, balanced animal.

#3 looks like she is being moved down hill, causing the front leg to hit the ground first which in my humble opinion will make it appear that the dog is out of balance.


It is a hard thing to take good movement pictures.

Just my thoughts on the pictures:)

[dobesign]

I don't know. But I think I have to side with Elaine. The first dog is very well developed muscularly for a puppy, plus, there are other conformational features that would make me think the movement image is representational for this dog.
As for the second dog, I think that the majority of the time, when a dog is turning, his head will also be looking in the direction of the turn. I don't see that here. The shadowing after the ribs could also be that the reach on the right causes the shadowing on the left. But the topline and presentation of muscle appears well put together.
The third dog seems a bit long to me, and I don't know if the front and rear angulation match.
I think it would be better, obviously to see a few pics of each dog, or better, video, or even better, live, but we must keep in in perspective. This isn't tearing a dog down, it's a study to help us recognise our own OPINION of what is correct. It only identifies for each individual, what one is looking for in movement. Topline, flexion, then you move on to tail set and underline...

[Elaine]

Elaine,

I have to disagree!;)

#1 Looks like it might be a puppy? And his legs and body have not yet gotten it together. It also appears that he is not moving in a straight line, grant it, it is not a flattering picture.

#2 looks like the picture was take when the dog was on a turn, look at the shadowing where the ribs and back begin, it appears that he is not moving in a straight line also. This dog shows like you said a good top line, well muscled, balanced animal.

#3 looks like she is being moved down hill, causing the front leg to hit the ground first which in my humble opinion will make it appear that the dog is out of balance.


It is a hard thing to take good movement pictures.

Just my thoughts on the pictures:)

Overall I agree that it is difficult to get a good movement shot. :) I don't know if I agree with you on #1. But with #2... I agree... I suspect it is simply a moment in time for the dog (who is an excellent dog btw, for those who recognize the photo). I used it only to show over reaching... and I agree about his excellent carriage and top line. About #3... again, it is a moment in time, I'd rather comment on the movement shown in the photo, then on the dog.

[Elaine]

Was thinking it might be fun to compile a reference list of great moving dogs... with links to photos of these dogs. So, here, off the top of my head are some of the best moving dogs I’ve seen over the years, going back to the early 1980's:

Ch. Westglen Blak-Gammon Cocker Spainel - saw him take a Group II to Robert at the Garden in 1993... great moving dog. Here is a photo of him about half way down the page http://www.fvcsf.com/PastWinners.htm

Ch Tobe's Return Of The Jedai - Ben- Akita - won the breed at the Garden 9 years in a row... retired by winning he Group at the Garden at about 9 years of age.

Ch Nanuke's Take No Prisoners - Tyler - Alaskan Malamute ... breeder / owner / handled ... amazing dog ... and Andy Linton had a lovely comment about this great dog, that I'll pass on in private. :rolleyes:


BIS Ch Salilyn's Condor - Robert Springer - BIS at the Garden

Ch Bit O Gold Titan Treasure - Kirby - Gorden Setter

AM CH PAHLAVI PUTTIN ON THE RITZ - "TACO" http://www.peds.co.uk/afghan/ptaco.htm

Ch. San Jo’s Hustle Bustle - Lhasa Apso - can’t find a link to her... but found a link to a really nice moving puppy http://www.angelfire.com/co/FreeSpiritLhasaApso/lhasaapsoboys.html


Ch Vin-Melca's Marketta - one of Pat Craig's great Norwegian Elkhound - Pat was so successful for so many years, there was a time when they are referred to as Craighounds.


Ch. Tarahill’s Everybody Duck - Samoyed - Chris Jones showed this dog.. http://www.doghandler.com/

Ch. Brighton Minimoto - Remi - White Standard Poodle

Ch. Kingswood’s Carbon Copy - Cardigan

Ch Kabik’s The Challenger - Pepsi - Afghan Hound

Ch. Bendale’s Special Lady and Ch H’Penny Hoyden at Edmar, Bearded Collies

Ch. Sherlock's Darby O'Vintage Farms - Darby - Irish Setter