Very Concerned Mom

[Arthur's Mom]

I recently got a wonderful boy named Arthur, but I am very concerned about his future health, namely DCM. I belong to quite a few doberman boards and the name Logres and Cambria have come up as not doing enough health testing and breeding to dogs with history of DCM. This deeply concerns me, as I know there is no guarantee of good health, but why would you breed to dogs with known DCM problems?

[tosca]

Hi there - not to minimize your concerns, but all dobermans have known DCM problems - some, more than others, but it is in the breed. You can test for DCM and have your dog test 'clear' today, but it could drop dead tomorrow. That's part of the problem with DCM. Further, DCM usually does not onset until after the breeding life of most bitches and dogs.

So, no offense, but prior to pointing fingers at any one or 2 breeders, please do look at breeding programs of many doberman breeders; the bloodlines that Logres and Cambria are breeding on are not unique and many be found in many many breeding programs of breeders around the country.

[Elaine]

Echoing what Tosca said, DCM is in the breed. There is no such thing as a DCM free pedigree, and as a medical fact, there is NO test that will tell a breeder that a given animal will not transmit DCM. IF a breeder tells you that they have a DCM free pedigree or that they have done some test that indicates their dog will not transmit DCM, then you are dealing with an idiot. I have no idea what websites you go to, but ask these “brilliant” breeders for the peer reviewed veterinary science behind the garbage they spew. Dr. Greenwood is a medical doctor, we rely on science, not wishful thinking, internet gossip and self-serving theory. We do health testing that is relevant to what a dog will transmit... and as a medical fact, there is actually very little testing that truly relates to what a dog will transmit.

I realize that you are new to this and do not know what you do not know... so we are not offended by what you posted. We do not make claims about the health of our pedigree that are not based on science. Many other breeders ignorantly make all sort of claims that are based on naiveté, wishful thinking, misleading data, and/or an utter misunderstanding of health issues in general. For example, with respect to DCM: it can be transmitted by dogs that never show symptoms; because a dog did not die of DCM does not mean he /she wouldn’t have died of it if something else hadn’t killed him/her first; littermates of DCM affected dogs can live long full lives (and may in fact have some inhibitor of DCM which the breed needs), etc. At present medical science does not know enough about DCM to know which dogs to include and which to exclude from a breeding program.

If you were mislead by some claim that Mr. Polanco made about the dog you purchased, I would take that up with him. You made the choice to purchase from him... and I am guessing that no one twisted your arm to do so. With over 35,000 hits on our website, it is clear we are available. I have no idea what sort of guarantee you think a living animal should have, but all you had to do was make one call to us or send us one email... we would have discussed the testing that was done on Ch. Logres' Tungsten... he is OFA Excellent; Mich. St. thyroid normal; and a vWD carrier. As a medical fact that means, Tungsten may or may not produce hip dysplasia (depending upon Missy’s hips and her pedigree), and upon the diet and exercise you provide; he may or may not transit a thyroid problem; and, he may or may not produce a vWD Affected puppy.

No heath test is a guarantee of perfection. If you want perfection and a guarantee, get an appliance. All living creatures have frailties, and one of those frailties will eventually lead to the death of the living creature. That is a fact you can take to the bank.

[Arthur's Mom]

Just to clarify, I was not trying to offend anyone, I am very pleased with Mr. Polanco and Arthur, who is a beautiful, sweet boy. What concerned me was when I posted a pic of him and listed his sire/dam, I was bombarded with negative posts about Logres and Cambria...which really took me by surprise and led to my question here. I am fully aware that DCM is a problem in the doberman breed, and hope that one day it can be bred out. I do not engage in internet gossip and did not reply to those posts as I can only go by what I have experienced firsthand. I will end by saying Arthur is a joy and I hope I have him for a long time.

[tosca]

Arthur's Mom - thanks for your post. I would offer one thing to you - sometimes it's good to consider the source of the unsolicited feedback you may have received.

Best wishes to you and good luck with your boy!

[Elaine]

Rule # 1 in dogs is that people love to throw rocks at others who are successful.

I have no clue who it is that is criticizing our dogs, but I guarantee that they don’t do it here where we would respond, because here they would be held accountable for their baloney. Some poeple are like cockroaches who scurry around in the dark and scatter in the light.

[Elaine]

I recently got a wonderful boy named Arthur, but I am very concerned about his future health, namely DCM. I belong to quite a few doberman boards and the name Logres and Cambria have come up as not doing enough health testing and breeding to dogs with history of DCM. This deeply concerns me, as I know there is no guarantee of good health, but why would you breed to dogs with known DCM problems?
Was wondering, what health testing do these fabulous experts think should be done?

Btw, Arthur's mom, we are not offended. If you want to buy from or listen to breeders who make guarantees about their pedigrees and do all this fabulous testing relevant to what the dog will transmit, but all means, go right ahead. I am mildly curious who all these credible breeders are and what testing they are doing... but beyond that, I take it with a grain of salt.

There is so much pure baloney whirling about, it is no wonder we make no progress what-so-ever on important health issues. Most breeders haven’t a clue what they’re doing or why.

It’s kind of like people not breeding to Dagger because he died of DCM but they breed to (or buy puppies from) Dagger’s son Monte

[tosca]

What concerned me was when I posted a pic of him and listed his sire/dam, I was bombarded with negative posts about Logres and Cambria...which really took me by surprise and led to my question here.

Arthur's Mom - where did you post your pic? I've not had an opportunity to see a pic of your boy.

[Arthur's Mom]

Cathy,
Here is a pic of Arthur..he is the sweetest boy and I think very beautiful

[Elaine]

Lovely... btw, who is the handler in the photo with the distinctive tattoo? Is that Ann White?

[tosca]

Thank you for posting Arthur's picture - he does look like a handsome young dog! Who's stacking him - they're doing a nice job.

[Elaine]

Maybe Arthur's Mom doesn't know who the handler in the photo is.

Just playing detective here since I am at my desk, waiting on a fax, but if you go to the Cambria website you will see that the hands and the jewelry look like Ann's... and if you look at Cambria's Fedora... the shoes look similar. I am no fashion maven; I wear some pretty funky shoes, but even for me, the shoes are a give away... and Ann and Jim were Polanco's mentors before Suzanne Smith (who was his mentor before he appeared at our door step). Polanco idolizes Jim and Ann, and I think that Ann and Jim sponsored Polanco to the DPCA.
http://www.cambriadobes.com/bitches.html

In the photo below, the shoes on the left are of the handler with the Tungsten son Arthur (from the photo on page one of this thread), the shoes on the right are Ann's, with Cambria's Fedora... they look pretty darn similar to me... but as I said, I'm no detective.

[Arthur's Mom]

I am not sure who the handler is, Jose sent me that pic...Elaine, you may not remember me, but we had a long telephone convo about a male that you had..I work at Tyndall AFB.

[andyhilt27]

Arthur's mom....Every breeder has their critics, especially on the web.

[Elaine]

I am not sure who the handler is, Jose sent me that pic...Elaine, you may not remember me, but we had a long telephone convo about a male that you had..I work at Tyndall AFB.Yes, I remember you well... I wish you all the best with Arthur... you may understand our feelings about Polanco.

Mr. Polanco sold two of Arthur's littermates to a buyer in India, at least one, the bitch Piper, went to a man named Michael Liu, who has a reputation for desperately trying to buy a competitive dog. By reputation, Liu goes through lots of dogs, purportedly they do not live with him, rather, they live in a kennel facility on a separate the piece of property, tended by employees. We have heard that by standards in India, Liu is a disaster. Attached here are photos of what Liu did to Karat, a Trotyl daughter he purchased from Fabian Gotlieb. Fabian was fortunate to get Karat back from Liu. People from India have repeatedly warned us about Liu, these warnings and Karat’s photos were purportedly shown to Polanco before he sent Lil’ Claire’s and Arthur’s littermates to India. We've been told that Liu burns through dogs, one after anther... presumably trying to buy a winning record. The dogs Polanco sold him were pets, we were told that Polanco represented them as show quality (as though Polanco would have a clue what show quality was). Purportedly Polanco wanted roughly $24,000.00 (twenty four thousand) for the pair, $16,000.00 for Piper and $8,000.00 for the male whom I believe he called Rich (who was undershot). Polanco apparently used a third party to facilitate the sale... a man named Rock Vali, who is widely believed to be a dog broker. Mr. Vali, represents himself as a vet from New England.

The buyer in India was furious when he saw the bitch puppy Piper. He didn’t want her. Though we would never have sold to this person in India, I can not blame him for being angry with Polanco... I would guess Liu took his anger out on Piper. We found out about all of this when Vali threatened to sue Polanco and sent a mass email to dozens of people, of which we were one.

We told Polanco that puppies were pets long before the sale to India... they are pets, as is Arthur. There is nothing wrong with being a pet... but it is wrong to misrepresent the quality of the dogs you sell, and it is wrong to try to gouge people in the hope of bilking blood money from the sale of helpless animals. Polanco had to know that Liu would be furious. We hold Polanco in utter contempt for what he did, but that has nothing what-so-ever to do with you.

We are very open and honest about what Polanco did... no hiding on internet websites... it is all here in the open.

Which brings me back to the people you referenced, who wrote about Logres and/or about us or our dogs, with the presumption that they have DCM free pedigrees or that their dogs have had some health testing (that they fault us for not doing), that would be predictive of what a dog will transmit. Who are these credible breeders? What are these glorious bloodlines? And, what tests are they doing that are predictive of what their dogs will transmit? I’d love to know more. If what they are claiming is even remotely credible, they should come here and enlighten us all, for the benefit of the breed.

Btw, the photo to the left is what Karat looked like before she went to Liu.. the other photos are of what she looked like when she returned. We're told that she was a showy confident animal when she went... and a demoralized little girl when she returned. How much money would it take for you to sell to Mr Liu or anyone who did this to a dog?

[Elaine]

I am not sure who the handler is, Jose sent me that pic...Elaine, you may not remember me, but we had a long telephone convo about a male that you had..I work at Tyndall AFB.
About whether Ann White is the handler in the photo of Arthur, please don't be concerned about it... it's just a stray factoid... largely irrelevant to life on planet earth... but a bit creepy none-the-less.

Polanco was two-faced when he wanted the breeding to Tungsten... butter wouldn’t melt in his duplicitous mouth. Polanco had his hand out, needing this and that... he couldn’t pay to show Missy, couldn't pay for collecting Tungsten, couldn't pay for the Fed Ex shipping of the semen... couldn’t pay for progesterone testing, ... couldn’t pay for much of anything except his sandwich. So he sucked up to us... and was very clear that he held Jim and Ann in contempt. Eventually we got tired of the evasiveness and games and we told Polanco to go pound sand. Apparently he went scurrying back to Jim and Ann... no big deal one-way-or-the-other, but it’s creepy to see them with a puppy from Tungsten... not more than that... just creepy.

[Lindsay]

Elaine,
I am so sorry to hear about Mr. Polanco selling Dobermans out of the country to Mr. Liu. It really just breaks my heart how money hungry people are and that they'll do anything to make a dollar. I do not see how anyone could be so cruel. Thank you for sharing your story.

[robinb]

First off your boy is very nice, congrats!

Both Tosca and Elaine are 100% correct in that the current available testing for DCM is diagnostic ONLY, neither the holter or the echo will predict DCM in breeding stock, nor will they predict if the dog will develop DCM in the future. Keep in mind that the median age for onset of DCM is between 7.5 and 8 years of age.

The purpose of the yearly diagnostic echo/holter is to pick up irregularities a few months to a year in advance of the dog actually presenting DCM, and thus medicating to slow the damage down somewhat and extend the dog's life by a few months to a year.

I'm not a breeder just a owner and lover of the breed for over 35 years. Holtering and Echo's on young breeding stock would mean next to nothing to me as a puppy buyer.

Robin

[Elaine]

Elaine,
I am so sorry to hear about Mr. Polanco selling Dobermans out of the country to Mr. Liu. It really just breaks my heart how money hungry people are and that they'll do anything to make a dollar. I do not see how anyone could be so cruel. Thank you for sharing your story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are dozens of Polanco’s in the world, we can not stop them. Heck, sometimes we don’t even recognize them until it’s too late. I think that the only point to take away from this story is that we should be cautious. For example, Arthur (the two legged Dr. Arthur) and I are now even more cautious than ever. We do not allow our dogs to be used on outside bitches... we co-own every bitch we breed. The single exception is Weihaiwej, whom we sold outright to Sheila. Sheila is special... a member of our family... so she fits in a unique category... same as E2... my twin, separated at birth.

We have no intention of being high volume breeders or record holders. Each and every dog we produce is special to us... we are blessed to have them in our lives and we feel a huge responsibility to them.

In one respect I appreciate breeders like the Whites. Can’t say that I admire their means, but they do the work, they get their butts to the shows, and present their dogs well. They produce dogs you want to see in a pedigree... and they do a high enough volume of breeding combinations to actually have some realistic idea of what their dogs will produce. You can’t credibly make those predictions without doing the volume... and that is work.

Personally, I don’t have the stomach to do the volume we’d need to do to chase a record. If I did, I could probably make Brentina the top producing bitch in breed history. But, I’d have to breed her at least two more times and sell to just about anyone with a check book. I have no interest in that. But the flip side is that the breed would be no where if all breeders were as cautious as we are.

When we speak of tests for breeding animals, what we also need is a test to determine who will be the right home for each individual puppy. Now that's a test worth a zillion bucks. :D
__________________

[Lindsay]

Again thanks for posting Elaine. I hope this gives breeders a heads up about who they sell their puppies to. Breeders can only do so much when selling puppies to make sure they are going to the "right" home. If I were a breeder, which I am NOT, I would do as much as I could, almost to the point of overkill. I would do background checks, home visits, spend A LOT of time with each individual person and try to get to know them to the best of my ability. I give kudos to the breeders who try their best to give each and every puppy a great home. Just thought I would add that in there.

Elaine-
Thank you for being cautious of who you sell your puppies to. We NEED more breeders like you guys! :)

[andyhilt27]

$16,000.00 for a dog? Oh my. I guess that doesn't really surprise me as I have seen some boars going for $100,000.00+. But still.....$16,000.00 for a dog?????

[Elaine]

Again thanks for posting Elaine. I hope this gives breeders a heads up about who they sell their puppies to. Breeders can only do so much when selling puppies to make sure they are going to the "right" home. If I were a breeder, which I am NOT, I would do as much as I could, almost to the point of overkill. I would do background checks, home visits, spend A LOT of time with each individual person and try to get to know them to the best of my ability. I give kudos to the breeders who try their best to give each and every puppy a great home. Just thought I would add that in there.

Elaine-
Thank you for being cautious of who you sell your puppies to. We NEED more breeders like you guys! :)
Thanks... should mention here that it’s a two-way-street. Breeders have to be there for their puppy owners. We've been blessed with absolutely fantastic owners. We’d be nowhere without our wonderful friends and family: Brenna, Sheila, Bill and Betty, E2 and Tom, Bob and Cheryl, Tracy and Jason, Tina and Jeff, Trey and Simone, Gladys and Leland, Mo and Jeff... and on and on.

Breeders need to support their owners... and all need to work together as a team for the benefit of the dog, whatever the goals may be. When things clicks, it’s a joy. :)

And when they don’t click, it’s a nightmare.:(

[Elaine]

$16,000.00 for a dog? Oh my. I guess that doesn't really surprise me as I have seen some boars going for $100,000.00+. But still.....$16,000.00 for a dog????? a bitch... I believe he was asking $16K for the pet quality bitch Piper. There are dogs that have sold for that amount and more... but they had some credible claim of merit to justify the price. They may already be champions... or something like that. We heard that Rich was undershot... that makes him a pet... plain and simple.

[Elaine2]

Arthur's Mom:
I am chiming in here to agree with Robin, E1 and Cathy. DCM is the biggest crapshoot you will ever know. Tom and I have lost 6 Dobes to DCM. 5 of them between 5 and 6.5 years. The last one was 10 1/2 and he basically died quickly of kidney failure from prescription dog food (poison from China). The kidneys shutting down, blew his heart up like a balloon within a week. Most of these Dobes were rescues with the exception of one. The breeder is very reputable and when I spoke to them a few years later we went through the whole litter and here is the result: one died at 1 1/2 of cancer, ours died at 5 of DCM and the rest of the litter lived into their teens. They do not have a lot of DCM in their lines, but you see??? it is a crap shoot. No guarantees.
I do not hold this against any breeder who tries their best when breeding.

We enroll every single Dobe into the heart research program and have done so since 1986 more in hopes that we can help them come up with answers and a cure. I will bet my last dollar that if you spoke to the Cardiologists doing this research and gathering records for all these years they will not be able to give you one single breeder who has not had DCM in thier lines somewhere along the way. You can take that one to the bank, and so can the "know it alls" who were quick to attack you.
Whoever is pointing fingers at only 2 breeders is full of bullcrap and do not know their rear from shinola. (sorry Cathy, this is a very sore subject with me).

So, Arthur's Mom, here is what Tom and I do. We cherish every single minute with this breed. We spoil them rotten. I kiss them every chance I get and I whisper "I love you" in their ear every single day because it could be their last. (Gee maybe I should do the same with Tom..LOL)
And starting on their 5th birthday we invite friends over for a Dobe BD BBQ and tell them to bring treats for the dog and he gets a piece of BD cake and something off the BBQ, because we look at every year from 5 as a huge bonus.

Just enjoy and cherish Arthur and don't listen to these folks.
E2 (who is climbing off her soapbox now) :D

[tosca]

So, Arthur's Mom, here is what Tom and I do. We cherish every single minute with this breed. We spoil them rotten. I kiss them every chance I get and I whisper "I love you" in their ear every single day because it could be their last. (Gee maybe I should do the same with Tom..LOL)
And starting on their 5th birthday we invite friends over for a Dobe BD BBQ and tell them to bring treats for the dog and he gets a piece of BD cake and something off the BBQ, because we look at every year from 5 as a huge bonus.

Just enjoy and cherish Arthur and don't listen to these folks.
E2 (who is climbing off her soapbox now) :D


Well said, E2! I've lost dobermans at 5 to liver failure; at 7 and 10 to wobblers; at 11 to simply being old; at 13 to cancer - it's never easy and always hurts, no matter the age. The best thing we can do is to love and cherish every minute we have with these noble animals!

[Athy]

Cathy,
Here is a pic of Arthur..he is the sweetest boy and I think very beautiful

He is beautiful. He has an intelligent look to him - unlike my 10 month old red boy, who looks like a total goober :)

DCM is an evil, insidious disease. DAR&E just held our spring cardio clinic. Out of 36 dogs tested, 9 came back positive and a half dozen or so were "iffy". No matter what your dog's pedigree, it is important to do regular cardiac screenings. It's an unpredictable, untraceable malady. And as someone else pointed out, it's unfortunately throughout the breed.

I often wonder, even when we find the genetic marker (assuming such a miracle is possible): what will happen to our gene pool if we strive to truly breed "cardio free" only? We might have a total of 10 dogs in the country :(

[Elaine]

I often wonder, even when we find the genetic marker (assuming such a miracle is possible): what will happen to our gene pool if we strive to truly breed "cardio free" only? We might have a total of 10 dogs in the country :(
I doubt that there is just one genetic marker for DCM in Dobermans. There are something like 18 genetic markers for familial DCM in humans... I’d imagine that there are at least that many in Dobermans and so far veterinary medical science has found none of them... zero, zip, nada. As with many canine health issues, we still have a long way to go.

I think that the real question is, “How is DCM transmitted?” Why is DCM expressed in some dogs in a litter, but not in others? When it is not expressed, why? Do some dogs have a mechanism that inhibits the expression of DCM? If so, they are of tremendous value to the breed.

And, if the breed gets down to 10 dogs... so be it. I think Doberman people will adjust, it will just be one of the challenges we face. Heck, we have so many other obstacles facing us, with Breed Specific Legislation, Mandatory Spay Neuter, insurance company bias, anti crop / anti dock laws... what's one more brick in our load? :( I think we should enjoy every precious moment we have with these guys... each day is a gift. But that is true of every life that touches ours... each day is a gift.

[doggiestyle]

I have also heard very very negative things about Logres. It saddens me that breeders have no morals. Breeders are in this for their own ego. They wish to breed the perfect dog much like Hitler wanted to breed the perfect human. And yes breeders do exterminate litters that are not "perfect"
Shame Shame Shame on breeders!

[Niko]

Doggiestyle,
You need to go read the forum guidelines.

You have a right to your own opinion, however the way you post her is just being childish.

I do not know ANYONE here personally, I am just a dobe lover, and I do not want to see this board turn into what others have become.

BTW What is the purpose of your posts, I have read two of them now and I just don't get it.

Cathy :confused:

[Elaine]

I have also heard very very negative things about Logres. It saddens me that breeders have no morals. Breeders are in this for their own ego. They wish to breed the perfect dog much like Hitler wanted to breed the perfect human. And yes breeders do exterminate litters that are not "perfect"
Shame Shame Shame on breeders!
I would agree that an utter lack of morality can be a source of sadness. Personally, I am also saddened by sheer stupidity. But sadness is nothing compared to the utter disgust I feel for this "doggiestyle" piece-o-slime who take cheap potshots at others, when that haven’t a clue what they’re talking about.

Over the years I have seen puppies that were euthanized for a wide variety of reasons, by a wide variety of very good breeders. It happens, it can be the humane and responsible thing to do, and it is not something to be exploited after-the-fact. One of the most heartbreaking was a litter of puppies with megaesophagus. At the time these megaesophagus puppies were young, they were thought to have no chance of survival, so euthanasia was preferable to starvation. The breeder made an agonizing decision... one that took a great deal of courage.

Breeding requires that one be responsible for what is produced, for the life of the dog. Sometimes being responsible means making the hard decisions for the ones we love. The whiff of your suggestion that we – or any breeder I know- would cavalierly or callously give up on any dog merely because they are not perfect is pure and utter crap.

[andyhilt27]

I have also heard very very negative things about Logres. It saddens me that breeders have no morals. Breeders are in this for their own ego. They wish to breed the perfect dog much like Hitler wanted to breed the perfect human. And yes breeders do exterminate litters that are not "perfect"
Shame Shame Shame on breeders!

Finally, someone that makes me look smart!:D Please don't ban doggiestyle!

[admin]

Finally, someone that makes me look smart!:D Please don't ban doggiestyle!

Sorry Andy. We actually considered giving doggiestyle a chance... but the entirety of doggiestyle’s posts, including the one on the Bob and Cheryl thread were unacceptable..

[andyhilt27]

agreed

[Elaine]

Yes, I remember you well... I wish you all the best with Arthur... you may understand our feelings about Polanco.

Mr. Polanco sold two of Arthur's littermates to a buyer in India, at least one, the bitch Piper, went to a man named Michael Liu, who has a reputation for desperately trying to buy a competitive dog. By reputation, Liu goes through lots of dogs, purportedly they do not live with him, rather, they live in a kennel facility on a separate the piece of property, tended by employees. We have heard that by standards in India, Liu is a disaster. Attached here are photos of what Liu did to Karat, a Trotyl daughter he purchased from Fabian Gotlieb. Fabian was fortunate to get Karat back from Liu. People from India have repeatedly warned us about Liu, these warnings and Karat’s photos were purportedly shown to Polanco before he sent Lil’ Claire’s and Arthur’s littermates to India. We've been told that Liu burns through dogs, one after anther... presumably trying to buy a winning record. The dogs Polanco sold him were pets, we were told that Polanco represented them as show quality (as though Polanco would have a clue what show quality was). Purportedly Polanco wanted roughly $24,000.00 (twenty four thousand) for the pair, $16,000.00 for Piper and $8,000.00 for the male whom I believe he called Rich (who was undershot). Polanco apparently used a third party to facilitate the sale... a man named Rock Vali, who is widely believed to be a dog broker. Mr. Vali, represents himself as a vet from New England.

The buyer in India was furious when he saw the bitch puppy Piper. He didn’t want her. Though we would never have sold to this person in India, I can not blame him for being angry with Polanco... I would guess Liu took his anger out on Piper. We found out about all of this when Vali threatened to sue Polanco and sent a mass email to dozens of people, of which we were one.

We told Polanco that puppies were pets long before the sale to India... they are pets, as is Arthur. There is nothing wrong with being a pet... but it is wrong to misrepresent the quality of the dogs you sell, and it is wrong to try to gouge people in the hope of bilking blood money from the sale of helpless animals. Polanco had to know that Liu would be furious. We hold Polanco in utter contempt for what he did, but that has nothing what-so-ever to do with you.

We are very open and honest about what Polanco did... no hiding on internet websites... it is all here in the open.

Which brings me back to the people you referenced, who wrote about Logres and/or about us or our dogs, with the presumption that they have DCM free pedigrees or that their dogs have had some health testing (that they fault us for not doing), that would be predictive of what a dog will transmit. Who are these credible breeders? What are these glorious bloodlines? And, what tests are they doing that are predictive of what their dogs will transmit? I’d love to know more. If what they are claiming is even remotely credible, they should come here and enlighten us all, for the benefit of the breed.

Btw, the photo to the left is what Karat looked like before she went to Liu.. the other photos are of what she looked like when she returned. We're told that she was a showy confident animal when she went... and a demoralized little girl when she returned. How much money would it take for you to sell to Mr Liu or anyone who did this to a dog?

I friend just ran in to Mr. Polanco at Dr. Settle’s office. Dr Settle is a vet in the area who does reproductive work. So, I would guess someone has agreed to breed to one of Mr. Polanco’s bitchs, maybe Missy. :( And the friend mentioned that Polanco’s young daughter appears to be pregnant as well. I think the daughter is 15... or maybe younger... very sweet, but too young to be a mother. :(

[Elaine]

Posted this elsewhere but it also belongs here... in the context of this thread and Arthur's mom's comments about "Good Breeders" etc., we hear from the grapevine that Mr. Lui (the man in India who purchased Zeus de Black Shadow and Tungsten's daughter Piper from Jose Polanco), has bred Piper. Piper was whelped March 13, 2007. She is 14 months old. :mad:

[dobesign]

Arthur's Mom, you know that tests seldom predict the future, but can accurately assess what is going on right now. Tungsten cardio cleared with a Holter monitor last week. It doesn't guarantee anything, but heart to heart, from a human who has DCM, it CAN make you feel better about the "right now" moment. People say things to freak other people out, or scare people away from other people for personal reasons. Did any of those people tell you how to check it out for yourself? If not, then they are a part of the problem, not part of the solution. DCM is not a dobie only thing, and there's tons of info about it, it's heritability, its varieties, and risk factors. Sometimes education is a good thing. Look up DCM on webMD. Yes it's human, but the information transfers well. And, when Arthur is old enough, you Holter test too. Be part of the solution. And do share what YOU find.
:cool:

[Elaine]

We just heard that Jose Polanco has bred to Agador... Ch. Dabney's Phenomenon. Hope it's not true, all I can say is, how sad for all concerned. :(

[dobesign]

Geez. I hope not, too. I would hope stud dog owners would see what kind of track record people have before they permit a breeding. Maybe that only happens in a perfect world... Who is Mr Polanco breeding? Missy, AGAIN?:eek:

[andyhilt27]

Geez. I hope not, too. I would hope stud dog owners would see what kind of track record people have before they permit a breeding. Hopefully though their track record is a true one and not one that is formed by certain people spreading rumors via their email list. Just referring to my situation.
:(

[Elaine]

The breeding is shown on Polanco's website... he is breeding Missy - again - even with his track record. There is no question that Polanco sold two of Tungsten's puppies to India. And even though Missy is not finished, and he has never finished an AKC champion, and none of the puppies in the first two litters are finished... Polanco suck newbies into buying "show quality" from him, as though he could tell what "show quality" is. :mad:

[Janice McGerr]

The breeding is shown on Polanco's website... he is breeding Missy - again - even with his track record. There is no question that Polanco sold two of Tungsten's puppies to India. And even though Missy is not finished, and he has never finished an AKC champion, and none of the puppies in the first two litters are finished... Polanco suck newbies into buying "show quality" from him, as though he could tell what "show quality" is. :mad:

Elaine,
Where is Polanco's web page?? If this breeding took place, do you think Linda would have breed to his bitch, if she had knowen about him. Or is he useing Cambrias and Logresfarm for stepping stones to breed to the top dogs out there??

[Elaine]

I do not know Linda and have only really been around her once, back in 1995 at the Garden, when Cathy Ceely went BOS with C.T. Fulkerson’s Special... (it was a fight for BOS between Travie and Damien with Carlos Rojas :).... cute story... all for a BOS) ... anyway, later that evening, up in the Sky Box, Linda made a big deal of Congratulating Cathy... got down on bended knee... was sort of cute. :)

I hear that she is not very discriminating about who she allows to breed to Agador. Honestly, how hard would it have been for Linda to ask a few simple questions like:

1. Is Missy (Cambria’s Sebring) an AKC Champion (Answer is no!”)

2. Has she been bred before? (Answer is yes, twice, back to back breedings, while he was living in a cheap apartment in Cary, NC. )

3. Where are those puppies? (Answer is at least two are in India and reportedly the bitch in India has been bred at 14 months, one is in Mexico, several are in Puerto Rico)

4. Are any of the puppies pointed or finished? (Answer is NO!)

5. Have you [Polanco] ever finished an AKC champion? (Answer is NO.)

6. So, Mr Polanco, this is the third litter from an unfinished bitch... you have hyped the puppies from the first two litters to newbies and people who don’t know enough to understand what you are... and you want me to bred Agador to your bitch? Linda's response should have been. “Hell Frickin NO!!!

We hear that several of the owners of the dogs who’s photos he uses on his website to sell his puppies are furious with Polanco and will be asking him to take their copyrighted photos off his website.

And, I am not linking Polanco's website here. This is enough advertising for this odious creature.

[Elaine]

And for Arthur's Mom, who started this thread, a heads up, Polanco does no more testing then we do, in fact, he does less.

And I ask again of you or anyone, what test do you assert will predict that a dog will not transmit DCM?

Agador's grandfather died of DCM. This grandfather is behind hundreds of the top Dobermans in this Country, including Multiple BIS winners, Top Dobermans in Breed, Group and BIS categories, Top Specials, Top Twenty Specials, WD at the 2007 DPCA National...and on and on and on. We do not have him in our pedigree. The fine folks who you mentioned were criticizing us haven't a clue what is true about DCM or about the pervasiveness of DCM in all pedigrees in our breed.

[andyhilt27]

They advertise Missy as a champion. Is it UKC or IABCA?

[Arthur]

http://web.mac.com/dabneydobes/Dabney_Dobermans/Upcoming_LItters.html
It looks official.

[Elaine]

They advertise Missy as a champion. Is it UKC or IABCA?


Andy,

I believe that Missy is an FCI champion, or maybe a Puerto Rican Champion... or maybe a "prancing around in my apartment living room champion" ... not sure, but she is NOT an AKC champion.

The "they" you are referring to is just a round and jolly 35 year old "Music Man" ... who, last we heard, lived in cheap apartment in Cary, NC and made $10.00 an hour. Do the math, these puppies mean income $$$$.

Linda Krukar is free to do as she pleases... I don’t know the woman and never thought twice about her. My personal opinion is that whether you are the bitch owner or the stud dog owner you have a responsibility for the puppies you produce. That responsibility goes beyond cashing a check. It includes making sure that the puppies have a decent quality of life. Lil' Clarie is here at my side now, as I write this. If you ever met Lil' Clare you would understand how precious she is.... ask her co-owner E2. When I think about Claire's sister, the Tungsten - Missy daughter Piper, living in India, unwanted, yet reportedly pregnant, at 14 months of age... I can’t think of vile enough words to describe Polanco. I wish him the fate of Piper. :mad: In my opinion, based on my experiences, he is only about money, blood money for the pain and suffering of helpless animals. :mad::mad::mad:

I can not imagine what people find credible about Polanco. He has not accomplished anything except conception. That, and he knows how to Cut and Paste other people's coprighted photos to his website. He is also trading on the factoid that Missy is a full sister to the DiNardo’s beautiful special Reigny. So, without ever accomplishing a single thing himself, Jose has a website full of copyrighted photos representing a lifetime of accomplishments of dozens of other credible breeders, owners and exhibitors. Polanco himself has finished no AKC champions and has bred no AKC champions. If people are impressed by the fabulous writing on Polanco's website, then "Thank you" I wrote most of it for him, including his tribute to Jim White... :eek::eek::eek:

At one point we tried to help the dear lad. The mere thought of that makes me puke. We paid Kelly to show Missy, we insisted that he use Dr. Patty Edwards to dock his tails and crop his ears... (which, in hindsight, was merely so that he could charge more money for the pets he produced). We got him hooked up with Dr. Settle, who is doing this breeding for him. In our defense, back when we got sucked in to his BS, and there was no track record to review, no one had enough data about him, and I question whether other breeders would have had enough balls to speak up about him anyway. We are telling this story now in the hopes that no more puppies go to situations like Piper's and Rich's. People who deal whith him now know who they are getting into bed with. Those who deal with him must accept his track record... which says everything about them. People who deal with him now, whether it is to sell him semen or dock and crop for him have to accept the perception that they are doing it for the money. At the very least Krukar is warned and needs to step up, for the sake of Agador's legacy.

Back when we got sucked in, other breeders we spoke with about him (including Suzanne Smith) did not tell us what baloney he had told them. True, there wasn't that much to tell, but even details would have been a red flag. We recently heard that he told a breeder in Florida that he was a minister and owned a video store. He told us he was a nurse and owned his own home... and that he would finish Missy. Most everything he ever told us was a lie. His website used to say that the Tungsten - Missy puppies would finish from the puppy classes or some such crap. How would he know what it takes to finish an AKC champion??? He's never done it!!!

I've got to go puke now!!! :D:D :D E2, Carmen, Sophia and a host of others might be able to explain my disgust more eloquently... I feel sick just thinking about this.

[andyhilt27]

Whoa!!!!! Why are you angry at me? I just pointed out that "they" are advertyising Missy as a champion.:D Misrepresentation I would suspect. I saw their website a long while ago and thought they looked like good breeders. This has been an eye opening experience. Thanks for the education.

[Elaine]

Andy, I am not mad at you... not remotely... you had nothing what-so-ever to do with Polanco... but god forbid someone ever did to one of Eva's puppies what Polanco did with Tungsten's ... you would understand.

Like Carmen, Sophia and a host of other breeders, we care deeply about what happens to the descendants of our dogs. You will too, trust me.

[andyhilt27]

:DI know, just trying to cheer you up. The Polanco's make it harder for newbies like me to enter the doberman world. One bad Apple......I am all for breeders making money so long as they do it the right way. Sadly that is impossible without have 20+ bitches living in a kennel. And then you must wonder how much attention they get. Even hobby breeders are providing a service and should be compensated accordingly. But then the price would be too high for the average person to have the joy of a Doberman in their life. A guess all legit hobby breeders can put this under volunteer work on their resumes.

[andyhilt27]

Like Carmen, Sophia and a host of other breeders, we care deeply about what happens to the descendants of our dogs. You will too, trust me.

I already do. I was screwed on Tabitha's first breeding. Not very happy right now and will release the details in due time.....

[Elaine]

:DI know, just trying to cheer you up. The Polanco's make it harder for newbies like me to enter the doberman world. One bad Apple......I am all for breeders making money so long as they do it the right way. Sadly that is impossible without have 20+ bitches living in a kennel. And then you must wonder how much attention they get. Even hobby breeders are providing a service and should be compensated accordingly. But then the price would be too high for the average person to have the joy of a Doberman in their life. A guess all legit hobby breeders can put this under volunteer work on their resumes.

Andy, I think you make excellent points... this should be a thread of its own. :)

[pretty dobe]

This is a topic that is too close to me...Being a newby in the conformation and the breeding world I have depended on my breeder, handler and seminars that I've taken and of course what is posted. Since I was on the end of being taken and lied to by a breeder this is way too close, as I've said. The fact that these people use highly thought of names and talk a good game it hurts to think you not only have put your male, in my case, at risk but now you don't know where the pups went or anything associated with them. In our case I know where one is. This man was big in Dobermans years ago and at that time well thought of. He contacted Caye's breeder and told him Marj Brooks thought it would be a good breeding. He respects Marj as we all do and I was recommended to do this. I asked Jorge and he said the same thing...If Marj says it is good then we go with it. Jorge oversaw the breeding and the guys wife returned home with the bitch. She had an infection and was ill by the time she got home to N CA. No one informed me and 11 days later on a Sunday at 4 am, Caye is spouting blood all over the place. We almost had to neuter him and worried about long term issues. I'm glad to say he was deemed perfectly healthy two weeks ago and has no long term issues. It was a little over a year of worry though and one surgery.

The guy being an old time breeder did everything himself and when I realized this the red flag started to wave. The bitch was taken to a hack vet and never was well while she carried the pups. So, when it was time for the pups to be born she never went into labor and the vet wouldn't take the pups. Half the litter was born dead and half fine. All were fat little pups. This guy did nothing he said he would, the pups never interacted with the mom. I went to see them and was appalled at the ears he did, himself!!!!!! The little guys had no toys, only the bag I brought for them. They were on a concrete base with nothing else to protect them. I cried all the way home. I tried to get some of the pups but he wouldn't let them go. A friend has one, so I know where he is but the breeder has pulled up and I have no idea where he is or where the rest of the puppies are. He never registered them, only the the one my friend has. This guy is a complete looney tunes. I talked to Marj at nationals last year and she filled me in on what I didn't know. She does know him and she didn't support the breeding. The breeding was done before she saw my e-mail or she would have told me not to do it.

Lesson learned by me the hard way and almost at Caye's expense. Never to happen again.

There are so many low lives in this sport just waiting to pounce on nice Champions.....It makes one very untrusting of people. I felt sorry for Caye's breeder because even with his checking on this guy, we were taken.

Judie

[Elaine]

Marj has been a great resource... she is always willing to take a moment ot give advice, help or simply an interesting comment. :):):)

About breeding, breeding and showing seem to attract a wide array of people... who have an equally wide array of motivations. There are excellent breeders, who strive for quality and truly care for each and every puppy they produce... and sadly, there are those who are simply in it for the money. They will sell semen or a dog to anyone...or perform a service for anyone, as long as they get their frickin buck. That makes them parasites in my book, sucking off the misery of innocent dogs. :mad: