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View Full Version : We Are Stewards of the Breed.


Elaine
06-12-2008, 03:21 PM
I think that we make many assumptions about the state of veterinary medical science that are inaccurate. For one thing, we assume that Veterinary science is on par with human medical science in terms of having solid peer-reviewed research to back up the claims we throw around. There is no nice way to say this, but we all know there is a wide range of quality in veterinary medicine. Some practioners stay current, some do not. Some practioners allow office staff to give medical advice (and even do medical procedures). Quality control and/or standards of professional conduct in veterinary medicine are vague and fuzzy concepts. Some of the claims we throw around come from the vet’s office staff, and techs. To be blunt, some of the worst advice you will ever receive will come from some vet. tech. who confuses Voc-Tech training with a Medical School education. Some, on the peripheries of veterinary medical science, know just enough to be dangerous. Bottom line, the advice we hear is not always grounded in credible peer-reviewed medical science.

Again and again we see well meaning (but misguided) people acting out of fear of the unknown. People want easy answers; we want the ability to be safe. We want to be able to assert that we have a line of Dobermans (or whatever our breed is) that is free of health defects. Categorically, we don’t have such a thing, it is not possible to have such a thing.

All living organisms are going to die, of some defect in their physical make-up. It is a law of nature, we age, we die… we die of something. All living organisms are susceptible to environmental influences. Many of the health problems we see are caused by more than just genetics.

For example, what's in your dog’s diet? Whether you feed a raw diet or kibble (or a combination of the two), the food you use comes from genetically altered sources and/or is exposed to toxins in our air, water and soil. Our crops are sprayed with pesticides which may be considered safe today and are banned tomorrow. Farmers use genetically altered seed, animals raised for meat in this country are exposed to toxins, all of which may wind their way into your dog's diet, having an impact on the dog’s health that we may not recognize for years to come. But we expose our dogs to more than just the toxins in their diet.

How many of us x-ray a bitch to determine the number of puppies she is carrying? How many of us x-ray a puppy to determine if they have a full mouth? Do you know that x-rays can cause cancers and/or other health problems especially in young growing living beings?

How many of us give combined vaccines and follow the vaccination protocol advocated for over 20 years by the AVMA…. which they now admit is flawed. How many of us give the combined shots, see the attendant autoimmune disorders, including skin problems and then put your dog on steroids and antibiotics… for weeks, months and/or years… and then blame the breeder and the bloodline for the problems you and your vet created? When is the last time a vet said, “Hey sorry, that vaccination protocol I pushed on you is completely wrong and can be the source of the autoimmune problems your dog has had.”

There are all sorts of other toxins in and around our homes, that our dogs have direct contact with. Think about it. How many of us use herbicides, insecticides and fertilizers on our garden plants in our lawns. Sure the company may say these chemicals are safe, but remember this, at one time we were told that Chlordane and Agent Orange were safe. Some of the toxins we consider safe today - may - in the future, prove to be potent carcinogens and/or the catalysts for a wide array of health defects.

We are in the infancy of understanding canine health disorders, and yet some breeders are desperate to assert that we have a credible body of scientific evidence upon which to exclude certain dogs and certain bloodlines.

We do not.

We need to understand the problems we face. We need credible published peer-reviewed science to support the decisions we make. Even if well intentioned, running off in the wrong direction is NOT better than standing still. We are stewards of the breed. The decisions we make will impact the breed for generations to come. We have a duty to stay calm and act wisely.

andyhilt27
06-12-2008, 07:24 PM
For example, what's in your dog’s diet? Whether you feed a raw diet or kibble (or a combination of the two), the food you use comes from genetically altered sources and/or is exposed to toxins in our air, water and soil. Our crops are sprayed with pesticides which may be considered safe today and are banned tomorrow. Farmers use genetically altered seed, animals raised for meat in this country are exposed to toxins, all of which may wind their way into your dog's diet, having an impact on the dog’s health that we may not recognize for years to come. But we expose our dogs to more than just the toxins in their diet.

This may lead me to a new business venture. Will a chicken and pumpkin diet provide enough nutrients? I suppose I would have to supplement some things like fish oil for fatty acids and such. The BARF diet seems a bit expensive. I know there is no amount of money that one could put a dogs health. That is what I want to do, make the BARF more affordable to all.

mosso
06-13-2008, 06:53 AM
I am amazed when I read some studies, at the conclusions drawn, and though peer-reviewed, conclusions that are NOT substantiated by the data, remain unquestioned! (veterinary medical studies or human medical studies). I find it appalling. Anymore, if someone quotes a study, I want to read the entire study, see the CV's of the PI's, know their political affiliations, and know who their friends are.

We cry foul at shows being political (not all), but whoa, "science" makes dog politics look like kindergarten.

And when you have groups of scientists ignoring good studies, quoting only studies that support their own financial-political viewpoint, it's almost criminal imo (take the IDSA guidelines on treatment of Lyme, for instance, human medicine).

At the same time, I see knee-jerk old-world ignorance on the part of breeders - recently one breeder said they don't xray pre-birth, b/c they did once, and the pups 'on the top layer turned out black and white' (in a breed where spotting is a fault). on the top layer. no joke. the pups on the 'bottom layer' were unaffected. HAH!

I also see fellow fanciers making requests of their veterinarians - 'my dog has diarrhea, give me some x' and the fancier doesn't know what is causing the diarrhea nor whether x is appropriate. but it worked on a different dog a few months ago. and it saves them an exam fee for a look see at the vet.

or fanciers that dose a sick dog with one or two days of whatever antibiotic they have on hand, not knowing if the sick dog's infection is susceptible to the antibiotic in their cupboard, not knowing the range of dosing for that drug, and certainly not without a veterinary exam.

You're right, there is a huge variation in quality of veterinary medicine (just as in human medicine - I've encountered ignorance in human medical professionals that is not only appalling, but almost killed me). My neighbor brought her dog to her vet, the dog is overweight, started gaining after the neutering. The vet yelled at her, said neutering had nothing to do with it, she must be over feeding, etc. Apparently this vet is ignorant of the effects of castration or other health issues that can cause obesity. And the neighbor hasn't brought the dog (who is even more overweight now) to a vet since.

Even if the science is "right" it seems to take forever to trickle-down.

I suppose my point is, question everything! :)
stir

sorthund
06-13-2008, 10:22 AM
This may lead me to a new business venture. Will a chicken and pumpkin diet provide enough nutrients? I suppose I would have to supplement some things like fish oil for fatty acids and such. The BARF diet seems a bit expensive. I know there is no amount of money that one could put a dogs health. That is what I want to do, make the BARF more affordable to all.

I don't really agree that the BARF or raw diet (or home cooked) is more expensive, although I haven't sat down to calculate, I must admit. You do however have to put in time to shop and store bulk bought food in order to make it less expensive. Don't buy the prepackaged food (too expensive), do it yourself just like we shop and cook for our families. I think people have gotten so used to just pouring a few cups of kibble out that feeding raw or home cooked seems like such a chore. Look for sales, chicken at $.69/lb, beef and pork at $.99/lb, look for price reduced "outdated" meat (it's still good) to add the more expensive meat like lamb for variety. Ask people to give you their freezer burnt meat, the dogs don't care, get to know a hunter and some who goes fishing, join a co-op to buy stuff for less, etc. etc. It can be done without being too expensive for most people. Yes I believe you should supplement with oils and such, which will add cost, but most people who care about their dog's diet do anyway even if on kibble. Anyway that's my 2 cents, I've been doing it for 1 year and 8 months now, and I'll never go back.

Elaine
06-13-2008, 11:22 AM
I am amazed when I read some studies, at the conclusions drawn, and though peer-reviewed, conclusions that are NOT substantiated by the data, remain unquestioned! (veterinary medical studies or human medical studies). I find it appalling. Anymore, if someone quotes a study, I want to read the entire study, see the CV's of the PI's, know their political affiliations, and know who their friends are.

We cry foul at shows being political (not all), but whoa, "science" makes dog politics look like kindergarten.

And when you have groups of scientists ignoring good studies, quoting only studies that support their own financial-political viewpoint, it's almost criminal imo (take the IDSA guidelines on treatment of Lyme, for instance, human medicine).

I suppose my point is, question everything! :)
stir

Stir,

I agree with many of your points... published peer review is just a starting off point, not an end point. About medicine in general, veterinary medicine is simply not on par with human medicine and what goes on in human medicine is scary. If people were aware of the influence of big business (most especially of pharmaceutical companies) in academia and medical research, they would probably never trust a doctor or a study.

When Arthur was going through medical school it was sickening (in our opinion) to see the pharmaceutical reps in the schools, essentially pushing their drugs as part of the curriculum. Pushing Prozac (or some other SSRI) or Ritalin (or some other amphetamine) to little children was always “the correct answer.” There was no emphasis ever on alternative none-drug courses of treatment, holistic medicine, diet, environment etc., other than to deride them as ineffective. The answer on the MLE was always “prescribe a drug.”

We have a duty to question... and be aware, after all, we have the most at stake with it comes to protecting and promoting our health and well being.

-E

tosca
06-13-2008, 01:17 PM
Will a chicken and pumpkin diet provide enough nutrients?

Short and long answer - no, of course not.

The key components of a BARF diet are Bones And Raw Food. Pumpkin is incomplete from a nutritional standpoint - chicken is, too. It is imperative that you include a variety of protein sources - poultry, beef, eggs (with shell), fish - and a variety of ground vegetables, primarily leafy green vegetables - kale, romaine lettuce, spinach, turnip greens, broccoli, parsley. Further, you absolutely must include organ meat - 20-25% of your 'meat' should include organ meat - heart, liver, kidney. Lastly, you must include bones - be they whole bones that the dog can eat, or ground bones included with the 'meat' - you need to include bone as an important source of calcium and phosphorous.

A BARF diet is not cheap, but I feel it is comparable to a high quality kibble diet and, in the end - what price can you place on your dog's health?

andyhilt27
06-13-2008, 03:23 PM
When I say chicken I mean the whole chicken. I have been wanting to start a farm for quite some time. I will of course wait for my funds to grow to support such a thing so the farm doesn't need to support itself. Organic of course. It would be nice to provide a BARF diet in an affordable and easy manner to people. I guess I should buy the book for the BARF diet to know what needs to be produced on such a farm. Nice concept huh? Hilt's Organic Dog Food Farm I could be onto something......

tosca
06-13-2008, 06:46 PM
Well, good luck to you! I thought of growing my own organic chickens for my dogs, then thought this:

- Wow, that's a lot of chickens :o
- Yikes, that's a lot of chickens to butcher :(
- Guess I'll buy backs from the butcher at $0.85/lb. :rolleyes:

Elaine
06-13-2008, 07:41 PM
I'm not exactly following this conversation... just thought I'd toss this out... About 20 miles from us is what must be the heart of Tyson Chicken growing country. If you drive around the countryside there are huge chicken growers... you can smell them if you are anywhere within a few miles... it is foul (fowl). :D This is not something you want to be around for a whole lot of reasons. :o I suggest that you make your fortune in business... possibly with an internet business :rolleyes: ... and then pay other people to organically raise your chickens.... so that you don’t have to get anywhere near the process... there is nothing about it that is appealing. Just my 2¢

andyhilt27
06-13-2008, 08:50 PM
No confined livestock.....pasture pork,beef, and chickens. Confinement operations are where you get into the really foul smells and health issues that require a crap load of antibiotics. They also produce more during the spring and summer months. It's the new thing, open air operations. It may save the small farmer.

Elaine
06-13-2008, 08:54 PM
sounds nice... much nicer that the Tyson Chicken Farms, but I still like my, "Make Your Killing Elsewhere and Buy The Product Already in the Package" plan even better. :D

andyhilt27
06-14-2008, 01:23 AM
Honestly, I won't make much money without being big. My tenative goal is to break even on the cost of feeding my dogs. With acreage I would love to expand my doberman family to at least 55. Just kidding!!!! I would love own more though.:D Ok....I will start a new thread on this as I have hijacked this one. Sorry!!!