Breeder liabilty

[andyhilt27]

I am starting this thread to have a collective brainstorm to cover any and all liablities as breeders. Hopefully we can find a dog loving lawyer to draw up a universal contract pro bono publico. Hey lawyers are recomended under American Bar Association ethical rules to contribute at least fifty hours of pro bono service per year, it is worth a shot.

Here are a few of the points that I have thought of. Feel free to elaborate on any of them. Also the most absurd things can be fought in court, so be imaginative. Cover your butt. Do you have time to go to court????

Health
Viciousness-They are animals we cannot predict if they will attack.
Property damage- Ever sold an adult dog as being house broken???? Flooring isn't cheap.
Conformation-Hey you might be buying a show prospect, but you are indeed playing the doggie lottery!!!

[Diane]

Interesting topic, Andy, very interesting. Easier to enforce a dog related contract in the state where the breeder/co-owner live than to do it across state lines I should think.

I do know that if a non-bar attorney draws up a contract/agreement it is less enforceable than if an attorney draws it up. However, proving that the breeder OR the co-owner breeched the contract/agreement is harder to do than it would seem on the surface.

Most contracts/agreements are originated by the breeder so there is often little a co-owner can do to seek relief from some of the wording should they want to go outside the restrictions.

AKC is treading dangerously on violating some breeders restrictions issued with a new owner or co-owners -- invalidating Limited Registration papers and now talking about allowing a co-owner to not have to have the breeder/owner's signature on a litter of puppies. It's already that case for a male being used for stud, only one owner is required to sign the registraion for the litter sired.

However, what I want to know is:
IF a breeder co-owns a dog that lives with the new co-owner and IF that dog kills a person, another dog, a cat, bites a child, etc., the breeder co-owner can also be sued for what? negligence, breeding a dangerous dog, or whatever. What is the extent of liability of each of the co-owners?

Good topic, Andy

[andyhilt27]

However, what I want to know is:
IF a breeder co-owns a dog that lives with the new co-owner and IF that dog kills a person, another dog, a cat, bites a child, etc., the breeder co-owner can also be sued for what? negligence, breeding a dangerous dog, or whatever. What is the extent of liability of each of the co-owners?

Good topic, Andy

I forgot all about this thread. I don't think I was drinking when I wrote it.:cool:

Your question at hand is what I want to know!!! I would think specification in the contract should explain the extent of liablity. But if it is not specified then who knows......I just envision a judge ruling that a co-owner shares all responsibilities.

[Diane]

Your question at hand is what I want to know!!! I would think specification in the contract should explain the extent of liablity. But if it is not specified then who knows......I just envision a judge ruling that a co-owner shares all responsibilities.

Well, Co-owner is an owner of at least HALF of the responsibly/liability for the dog.

What was the court ruling in California where one of the owners was in prison and a couple living in a San Francisco apartment had the 2 rare breed dogs that attacked and killed a woman in the hallway of the apartment building?

But hey, I've got one MW Dachshund that is mean as damned nails. He even bit me one time. An 8 pound meanie he is. I didn't go to the doctor because then the MD would have been required to report a dog bite. And, it was like multiple puncture wounds in my hand that got very nasty there for a while.

So, had I placed him before he had bitten me, and he got nasty and bit someone, could I have been sued for selling a vicious breed of dog or a vicious dog?

I doubt very seriously that wording on a contract/agreement would truly remove a person from future liability if that person remains as a co-owner. So, if I co-own 10 dogs that each bite 1 person then I am equally responsible for each of those dog bites. I would have to go to court 10 times (once for each dog) and try to prove that I'm not responsible in front of 10 Jurries? LOL How much money and time would that cost me?

[doberdogsfd]

In the eyes of the law, NOT THE AKC, it is where the dog is specically ID'd to regarding who owns the dog. Who pays for the up keep (vet bills, daily care and mantainence) and where the dog is registered and micro chipped/tattoed to in name and address is the legal owner. Who the vet has down for the owner all that, who brings the dog to the vet.

The law does not, at least in the NJ/PA/Del area, recognize a co-owner who pays nothing or their address is not where the dog's address is.
It appears that if a dog was to bite, damage etc, someone or something the person the dog is addressed to would be held accountable.
I am sure there would be exceptions to this but those are the basics.

JMO now....a contract that is specific to the situation might be a good idea. I am not sure if a blanket contract on every dog sold to a home, pet or show is correct everytime. I am also caught between a hard place and a rock in not wanting to be a complete control freak!!! Ya know????
I have heard of some very silly demands made by breeders of owners and the person purchasing the dog. the person is basically paying just to house, care and finish someone else's dog.
LET Me QUALIFY.....NO breeder I have ever been involved with has ever done such a thing involving me or my husband, co-owned or not. So the above is not specific to my household.

This is a good topic Andy.
Cheryl

[Elaine]

A dog is personal property, which can be sold subject to whatever terms and conditions people agree to (as long as they are legal). Typically, the terms and conditions include a dollar amount and some specific performance, like finishing the dog, or puppies back or whatever. The Contract can (and arguably should) include which county and state has jurisdiction should a dispute over the terms and condition of the contract arise. Many will list the county and state of the breeder/seller (but it can be whatever the parties agree to, for example, we have one contract that specifies that any dispute will be resolved by a particular person - who happens to be an attorney on the Board of Directors of the AKC). The contract should also include what the damages will be for violating one or more of the terms and conditions of the contract.

Basically a contract is simply a written expression of the will of two parties to be bound in agreement. A series of emails discussing the terms and conditions of sale and the intent of the parties is binding. Usually if two parties end up in court over a contractual dispute, money is the remedy sought and awarded.

I can’t think of any breeder who does not sell a dog subject to some terms and conditions of sale, which for us and many breeders includes that the dog must come back to the us/ the breeder if FOR ANY REASON the buyer / co-owner decides to part with the dog. Terms and conditions may also include puppies back, access to a stud dog, showing and basically what ever else two parties wish to agree to.

I work for an attorney, I have seen first hand the kinds of disputes people have in dogs. I think a contract is only as good as the integrity and ethics of the people signing the contract. For some people, their word is their bond and they honor their word. For others, it would not matter what Contract existed, they simply are without honor or integrity and can not be trusted in or out of a contractual situation.

Years ago I had a contract for a pick puppy, we had to go to court to enforce the contract, we won in court... got a judgment and foreclosed on the judgment. In hindsight the person simply was not trust worthy.

About 5 years ago we sold a bitch with the condition of price and a puppy back. The buyer got mad because of a question I asked in a private email about a political matter and sold the bitch to be spayed, without our knowledge or consent. We never got the pick puppy back. Their daughter even lied to us that they still had the bitch, even after she’d been sold. The buyer should have been trust worthy, but in our expereince was not.

There is no way to really know in advance who you can trust. We look for a connection to the people who have our puppies. It is an intangible thing... but we look for some sort link to a fundamental kindred spirit. That is not to say there won’t be disputes, problems or bumps in the road... but people of good character shine through and work things out ... putting the dog’s best interests first. And slime balls fall by the way side.

We have the BEST possible owners... but that is because of who they are, not because of some contract. I think as a breeder you have to be willing to step back and let people make decisions for the dog and enjoy the ownership of the dog... or the relationship becomes what Cheryl described above, they are paying to house your dog.

I don’t get too spooled up about contracts anymore. Any of them can be broken... if people have a will to fight in court, they can. Those are the kinds of people we try to avoid.

When considering the sale of a dog, "If something bothers you, let it."

[andyhilt27]

There is no way to really know in advance who you can trust. We look for a connection to the people who have our puppies. It is an intangible thing... but we look for some sort link to a fundamental kindred spirit. That is not to say there won’t be disputes, problems or bumps in the road... but people of good character shine through and work things out ... putting the dog’s best interests first. And slime balls fall by the way side.



Intuition should never be overlooked.

[doberdogsfd]

Agreed. I think one should go with their gut and if something doesn't feel quite right, it probabley isn't.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

My best advice: there are people who act with integrity, mean what they say and can be trusted with their word; deal with those people and avoid the rest of humanity. :)

I have never seen a sales contract for a dog that could not be broken. Most have more loop holes in them then Swiss cheese. You’d need a wheel barrow to carry around a contract sufficient to cover all aspects of an agreement, it would take people ten years just to read through the damn thing... and then they don't want to sign it without speaking with their attorney... etc. :rolleyes:

Back in the early 1980’s I placed a dog with a friend who was an attorney. Nice woman, graduated top of her class from a top-tier law school back east, worked for one of the big law firms in Seattle (ended up getting disbarred, but that's another story). Anyway, in the zenith of her days practicing law she drafted a boilerplate contract for me, cost about $500, for 10 pages. I never used it, not once.

In my opinion, the essence of what we are often trying to bargain over (i.e., the value of a show prospect, the rights we want to share and the rights we want to retain, and our expectations for the dog’s show career), are very difficult to set in writing and even more difficult to convey to the court. How do you establish the value of a particular dog and that dog’s reproduction contribution? Is a dog worth the same as his /her littermate? For example, is Trotyl worth the same dollar amount as his littermate brothers? A judge may say “sure, they have the same pedigree, they are the same age... they are champions, they are worth the same dollar amount.” We in the breed may say “no” ... they are not of the same value.” And, you’ve got to ask, at what point did that gap in the difference in value accelerate? Also, a dog’s value to the owner / breeder may be markedly different than his/her value to the court. I have seen people fighting in court over a dog... without exception they end up spending more on legal fees than the dog and the situation was ever worth.

The point of a good contract is to stay out of court. I think the contract should include a remedy for breach of contract. I think a contract should include a dollar amount remedy (or specific performance, or both) for breach of the contract and spell out who gets to decide that a clause of the contract is breached.

Here is a clause from a contract related to the sale of timber that came in very handy because it gave me an immediate remedy, i.e. the right to terminate the agreement at my discretion:

IT IS FURTHER MUTUALLY AGREED that the relationship between the parties is that of SELLER and BUYER; that prompt weekly payments are mandated by the terms of this agreement; and that should the BUYER fail to comply with any of the terms, provisions and/or conditions of this agreement (as determined by the SELLER and at the SELLER’S sole discretion), the SELLER shall have the right to declare this agreement terminated and all rights of the BUYER under this agreement (including rights in and on the property or premises) shall cease immediately and be at an end, and that the BUYER will immediately forfeit any and all rights to any remaining timber or forest products, irrespective of whether said forest products have been harvested in part or in full.