The Mares and Brentano this morning

[Elaine]

here are a few shots of the mares, the foal and Brentano from this morning...

[Elaine]

and Last Ruler (who is growing up pretty fast) and with his mom and Brentano and True Ruler

[andyhilt27]

Elaine,

How did Brentano do in the ring? Was he shown? He is a nice looking lad.

[andyhilt27]

Btw is he still intact ?

[Elaine]

Brentano has excellent bone, he’s square... strong topline... nice shoulders, which you can see in how he uses himself. He is OFA excellent, beautiful bite... overall he's a really a nice Kafka son, a littermate to Tungsten and Titan... he was never shown because one ear does not stand well (and yes he is still intact, and no, he has no puppies on the ground). Brentano is a working dog with a capital "W." He wants a job to do , he should be a therapy dog, he is very much like Tungsten... even more wanting to please than Tungsten... Brentano was like that from when he was a tiny pup.

[andyhilt27]

I was told about a corrective procedure involving sutures for the ear. Have you any info on that? Supposedly there is a vet in Muncie Indiana that is very experienced with this.

Personally I wouldn't go through it for just show purposes. I am sure you have the same thoughts.

[dobesign]

My understanding of that procedure (or any duplicated procedure) moves into the cosmetic zone, and THAT is a big NO NO.:eek: If he isn't showing, should it matter?:confused: Wouldn't it be better, if not showing in conformation, to just let him be Brentano, warts and all? Let him work!:cool:

[andyhilt27]

My understanding of that procedure (or any duplicated procedure) moves into the cosmetic zone, and THAT is a big NO NO.:eek: If he isn't showing, should it matter?:confused: Wouldn't it be better, if not showing in conformation, to just let him be Brentano, warts and all? Let him work!:cool:

I whole heartedly agree. Which is why I know very little about the procedures.:D

I had an issue with Lexi's ear. When we took posession of her she did not have her ears posted. I don't know how long they were down but we posted them the day we got her. We continued to post for 3 months with no signs of improvement. When I was getting a second opinion on her skin the vet said there was the procedure with the sutures. I of course saw no need for it as she was not going to be shown/bred at that point.

Elaine does Brentano sleep predominantly on one side of his body???? I know Lexi slept on her right side so her left ear was the one that didn't stand correct. That was my theory on her anyway.

[Elaine]

Brentano had a bad ear crop. We are well aware that people re-crop all the time. That’s fine for them.... it's not for us. From my experience, based on AKC Trial Boards, where the AKC actually attempted to enforce Chapter 11, Section 8., the first ear crop is allowed, any subsequent surgeries are consider “changed in appearance by artificial means.” I believe that Brentano could be re-cropped to make the ear stand, but we have absolutely no reason to put his through a surgery, that he does not medically require, and would, among other things, bar him from being shown.

[dobesign]

"Elaine does Brentano sleep predominantly on one side of his body???? I know Lexi slept on her right side so her left ear was the one that didn't stand correct. That was my theory on her anyway"

Or is it just that he signals his left turn more often?:p It's a shame that soooo many people consider the cosmetic more than the dog, for who he is! I know of sooo many dogs that have that "FAULT". The fault that we surgically applied to them. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a well cropped dog. What makes me boil is when we put the dog through all that, then WE do follow through and blame it on the dog.:mad: That, my friends, is MALE BOVINE FECES. :eek:Ahem.

[andyhilt27]

Or is it just that he signals his left turn more often?:p It's a shame that soooo many people consider the cosmetic more than the dog, for who he is! I know of sooo many dogs that have that "FAULT". The fault that we surgically applied to them. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a well cropped dog. What makes me boil is when we put the dog through all that, then WE do follow through and blame it on the dog.:mad: That, my friends, is MALE BOVINE FECES. :eek:Ahem.

Why you getting mad at me???? Now why do I ask if he is still intact if I do not think he is a great dog???? :D

As far as cropping goes.....I think it is a pain and really irrelevant to the actual dog itself. Sure cropping serves a purpose. Floppy ears were bred into the domesticated dog. I call cropping "human initiated evolution reversal". But to judge a dog to a fault based on a crop mishap is wrong.

I don't welcome a cropping ban by any means. I do welcome more acceptance of uncropped dogs and dogs with cropping mistakes.

[Elaine]

Andy, I don't speak for Brenna, but I suspect that her comments were directed more generally... and not to you.:)

I took your interest as complimentary (in a general sense) and I agree. Brentano is a nice dog... correct in many ways, but not perfect. Though he is balanced, I would like a broader upper thigh and more bend of stifle... and a cleaner back skull... and a smoother flow of neck into shoulder. But he has some very nice things about him, especially his bone, substance, size, overall square proportions, nice lay on, and good coupling. He might actually produce well with the softer topline and longer backs of the SA dog (Classic Touch comes to mind as a phenotype that might work with Brentano), but, at this time, I don't see us ever doing enough breedings to get around to using Brentano. He is well bred with an absolutely golden temperament. I used to joke that Brentano is the kind of dog where, if the steak fell on the floor, Brentano would pick it up, brush it off and put it back on the counter (in contrast, Warkant would snag it in mid air or before I’d even turned my back). I imagine that many would have had Brentano re-cropped and finished. We have no interest in racking up some abstract number of champions... so it was never a priority to have him finished and we do not re-crop, re-dock or re-anything.

Now, finding him his very own bed, one he doesn’t have to share with Brentina or anyone else, would be nice. And, he'd like more of a job than running around with Sandro D. :D

[dobesign]

You raise excellent points! If I was mad, I'd email you directly as that sort of stuff doesn't belong in a public forum. PLUS, I don't let myself get mad about rhetorical items that cannot be altered by one person. I'm delighted that you raised the point, allowing us an opprtunity to see what others think!:D Can we still be friends?:p

[andyhilt27]

Sure we can still be friends! Sorry this post has to be short, my daughter is trying type for me. I think she is trying to say that she likes Brentano too!

[andyhilt27]

Elaine,

What do you mean by lay on?

[Elaine]

Elaine,

What do you mean by lay on?
It’s a reference to how the scapula lays on the spine... which you can easily view from above the dog and/or from standing in front of or behind the dog. A smooth lay-on is ideal... (As opposed to a course lay on, where you can actually see the partial outline of the scapula, which will ultimately impact the upper arm and subsequently the rest of the leg down to the foot fall and soundness of the dog).

When we consider ideal the shoulder assembly, there are several assessments we are making. One is the length of the scapula... another is the lay-back of the scapula (which is easily observed when viewing the dog from the side) and yet another is the lay-on of the scapula. Ideally we want a proportionally long scapula (with a proportionally long upper arm), that is both well laid-back and well laid-on. When we consider ideal the shoulder assembly, there are several assessments we are making. One is the length of the scapula... another is the lay-back of the scapula (which is easily observed when viewing the dog from the side) and yet another is the lay-on of the scapula. Ideally we want a proportionally long scapula (with a proportionally long upper arm), that is both well laid-back and well laid-on. Lay-on is a reference to the upper tip of the scapula, which attaches by muscle to roughly T2 (the second of the nine thoracic vertebrae). Btw, the longer the thoracic spines, the better the muscle attachment.

Brentano has a nice shoulder assembly, and he has good lay-on... but if the goal is absolute perfection (and it is), I would give him a longer scapula and a bit better lay-back. I want the thoracic vertebrae to be long and angled back... and I want the neck to tie in to the shoulder assembly in a smooth line (smooth from any angle), that puts the rounded upper part of the scapula just a hair behind the elbow of my dog (who has an equally long upper arm). In well over thirty years of dogs, I have seen that ideal assembly very very very rarely.

But here is something that Rachel Page Elliott observed back in the 1980s with cineradiography at Harvard University’s Museum of Comparative Zoology. The scapula is not a fixed joint... in fact, it moves elliptically and is controlled in part by the muscling and the shape of the rib cage. This “45 degrees of layback” is a bit of a myth, not even necessary, much less ideal. We’ve probably all seen dogs with more upright shoulders who are actually capable of great reach and pretty good movement. This is possible because the scapula is not a fixed hinged joint. Which accounts for why some really good moving dogs do not have particularly good lay back. Which all gets back to why a judge should evaluate the WHOLE dog... how the individual animal is put together and uses himself/herself... and not bits and pieces.

[Elaine]

Just wanted to mention here... please feel free to make any observation you like about the photos I’ve posted ... and / or about the dogs, including Brentano. I promise I will not get pissed, and run off in a huff. :p This is a dscusion forum... we can talk about this stuff. A house isn't going to fall on you if you do :D

[andyhilt27]

Just wanted to mention here... please feel free to make any observation you like about the photos I’ve posted ... and / or about the dogs, including Brentano. I promise I will not get pissed, and run off in a huff. :p This is a dscusion forum... we can talk about this stuff. A house isn't going to fall on you if you do :D

Elaine I would love to see a photo of Brentano stacked. As far as me critiquing any dog.......I don't have the knoweledge to do so. It has taken me 7 months to partially analyze Eva. Even at that I could not do so at the level you and others could.

What you are bragging on (I use that term loosely) in terms of Brentano are areas where Eva is lacking. So if in the future if you would allow me the honor of breeding to him I would seriously consider it. With your advice of course......:D

We will have to meet at a show in the future so you can see Eva and obviously get a better idea of what I need to breed for. I honestly believe she presents herself better in person than in a photo. Much like me!!!:D