Saving Dilution?

[dobesign]

I know that the current trend is to eradicate many "undesirables" in our Dobermans. DCM, vWD, bad temperaments, weak toplines are all included in that list I hear. Where dilution is concerned things become a bit more vague. Myself, I do not prefer it. I suppose my question is this: What are the pro's and con's of the dilution factor? I'm concerned when I read about people that won't breed to a dog ONLY because he had cardio two generations back in one track of his pedigree, or that he is a vWD carrier OR WORSE an affected. It seems at times, that breeders create an annual leperosy: the horror affliction of the year. I can remember in the early 90's when the "Oh my Gosh, I can't even LOOK at him, he's missing a tooth!":eek: and instead they bred to a dog that flunked or received a FAIR from OFA on hips. Now, DCM THAT has to go. It would be nice to see vWD go, but I don't think it's as big a bugaboo as it was, because now you can KNOW if your dog has it, and there's ways to mitigate it on a surgery table, which is where it usually becomes problemmatic. So, where do YOU rank Dilution on the scale of genetic eradication?

[andyhilt27]

It ranks high on the list of irradication for me. Not higher than DCM, Wobblers, Cancer, etc... But it is high on my list. I go back and forth on this. An inner conflict if you will.

As a future breeder I do not wish what I had to go through as a former dilute owner on any prospective buyer. Being owned by a Doberman is very challenging at times and I certainly wouldn't want to add to that challenge.

I would prioritze the irradication of dillution over vWD. Actually irradication wouldn't be the term I would choose here. Irradication at this point would reduce the gene pool and there are too many unknowns in terms of DCM. I would rather reduce in the direction of irradication until DCM and other issues have more sound testing.

For example. Let's say Eva is a #4 black(I hope not) and is a vWD carrier(she is). I know the combinations are nearly boundless so I will use two here. I have narrowed it down to two lovely studs. Dog A is a #4 black and is vWD clear. Dog B is a #1 black vWD carrier. I would go with dog B.

Her offspring would be clear, carrier, or affected. The offspring intended for breeding would be tested. I would feel better as a breeder selling a carrier or affected versus selling a blue. What's worse is buying a dilute that is affected and has cardio issues!!! (been there)

[janetoppedal]

Why does the color, of a vVW clear, cardio clear, Hip/Shoulder excellent, conformation correct dog/ bitch Matter.. If we are trying to breed out the life threatening health issues, what does the color of the hair have to do with any thing...( I am not talking about Z factor, white )

[Jan]

Why does the color, of a vVW clear, cardio clear, Hip/Shoulder excellent, conformation correct dog/ bitch Matter.. If we are trying to breed out the life threatening health issues, what does the color of the hair have to do with any thing...( I am not talking about Z factor, white )
Years ago I purchased a beautiful blue girl (won back-to-back majors and had 12 to 13 pts before I got sick of the games in the ring and pulled her), that I then bred a dog to breed her to. I did not do the breeding, not because she was blue (I kinda knew that when I bought her!). Here was my reasoning for not doing the breeding: the male I bred to breed to this blue bitch was a carrier and she was affected. Now, I had three other clear dogs, one of whom was a dominant black dog, that all fit her pedigree well, still I did not breed her because I learned of a few health issues with her immediate family. When I factored in everything, added with the fact that she was blue, I decided not to breed her, and simply enjoy her for herself. She is a blast to own and live with and has been for the last nine years. The bottom line is, if the whole of the result is worth it, don't be afraid of color, but all the pieces have to be there before you take the risk to breed. I have seen elderly blues with good coat, I have an 11 yr old fawn that has no coat issues and a beautiful dark coat. But breeding just for color is not something one should ever even consider doing. It's a hard choice to consider producing color, but one has to weigh all the factors to produce the highest caliber litter.
Jan

[andyhilt27]

Why does the color, of a vVW clear, cardio clear, Hip/Shoulder excellent, conformation correct dog/ bitch Matter.. If we are trying to breed out the life threatening health issues, what does the color of the hair have to do with any thing...( I am not talking about Z factor, white )

Personal preference Janet. That's all. I think it is a gamble to own a dilute especially a blue. Sure dilution is the lesser of two evils.....but I would try to eliminate all evils in a perfect Doberworld. For me a vWD carrier is less of a risk than a dilute. Just my own opinions on it. Nothing against dilutes. I have no problems breeding a dilute to a dominant black.:D I personally do not want any dilutes.

[janetoppedal]

Thank you for the feed back.
It seems to me that color plays no specific roll in the doberman world, like I said it doesnot change the ability of the dog.
I guess I just got lucky, I have a blue, that is clear of vVw and carido.. (this could change in time I know) and his hips and elbows are excellent.
I was just curious, what the big deal on the color was.. a blue, in my book should be able to do exactly the same thing as a black or red even a fawn.
If a dog has a genitic defect, of any kind it should not be bred.
Is a blue and or Fawn a genitic defect? does it prevent a working class dog from working? If so why does it not affect the Weimaraner, since that is where the color came from.
Just asking..

[andyhilt27]

Thank you for the feed back.
It seems to me that color plays no specific roll in the doberman world, like I said it doesnot change the ability of the dog.
I guess I just got lucky, I have a blue, that is clear of vVw and carido.. (this could change in time I know) and his hips and elbows are excellent.
I was just curious, what the big deal on the color was.. a blue, in my book should be able to do exactly the same thing as a black or red even a fawn.
If a dog has a genitic defect, of any kind it should not be bred.
Is a blue and or Fawn a genitic defect? does it prevent a working class dog from working? If so why does it not affect the Weimaraner, since that is where the color came from.
Just asking..

I read somewhere that, I think, 90%+ of all blues will develope Color Dillution Allopecia. A dilute with skin conditons is not a fun thing to deal with.

To consider a recessive gene that may develope skin problems a defect is up for debate. I suppose you could if you really wanted to split hairs.

The blue I had was not a severe case of CDA. She did have frequent staph infections though and stunk to high hell. I gave her antiseptic dry baths frequently, tried numerous supplements, went to two different vets, all to no avail. She did do well on steroids and antibiotics. But that is not good for the dog. In short, if I could avoid producing a dilute I would. With all the joys of owning Dobermans there also comes challenges. I just wouldn't want to add the normal challenges if at all possible.

I have nothing at all against blues, fawns, or albinos. They are Dobermans. Will they perform the same tasks? Sure they would!!! A vWD affected, young dog with DCM, or one that is genectically predisposed to cancer could also perform the tasks as well until their disease kills them.

I am not against any Doberman of dilute colors....I just simply don't want to produce them from a consumer stand point. Breeders do provide a living product to consumers. I know it is kind of a mechanical way of looking at a member of one's family, but it is a durability issue. To me it is a health concern. Why not nip it in the bud?

[andyhilt27]

If so why does it not affect the Weimaraner, since that is where the color came from.
Just asking..

The Akc disqualifies blue Weimaraners. There are also theories that the blue Weimaraners are a result of a cross breeding with a doberman. So as it seems there are some Weimaraner breeders pointing the finger to the Doberman.

here is an interesting article:


http://www.blueweimaraner.com/tell.html

[dobesign]

In collies and many other breeds the fatal grey issue comes up often. But I think we need to make the distinction between blue dobes that have skin and coat issues (not the other features that often happen with blues that are not directly linked to the blue alleles) as compared to von Willebrands disease which can actually cause death (although it does not happen clinically as often as people think). Fatal grey is just that, fatal. a blue or isabella dobe is not fatally flawed, but rather inconvenienced. I'm just curious how people weigh their decisions with respect to this, as many of the great dogs are/were affected dogs (although few ever manifested clinical symptomology), as compared to how many dogs expressing the phenotype related to a homozygous dilute (dd) genotype.

[janetoppedal]

I am glad all this has come up...alot of breeds have skin issues, and it has nothing to do with the color.. I too have heard that Blue and fawns will loose there hair and have skin issues, what about the reds and blacks they dont?
My first black bitch had grass llergies.. guess what she was bald..I was told so many things about doberman skin I could write a book, and nothing worked until I took her to a dermotoligest..
I came from AQHA and APHA, I got out of breeeding horses and got into Dobermans..
Did you know that the American Quarter Horse and the American Paint horse registry, will no longer accept HYPP pos horses to their registry?(Hyperkalemic periodic paralysis) this disorder causes a horse to have Grandmal seizures.. Pretty scary since they weigh over 1000 lbs.

I feel we are in control of our breeding programs, and we should breed for Conformation, Disposition, and Health. I do not care what color the puppies are as long as they are Neg for life ending genitic charatistics, and by breeding a dilute 4, to a black 1, this should help with the skin issues on the puppies, since dilute is a recessive gene, and black is dominant, if you do get a blue, it should have good skin and coat.. My male looks great, and he is almost 4.. his Dame was a black 1 and his sire was a red 4.

If in the future you have skin issues Please try to use dermabenSs, you use it once a week for 4 weeks ( you will notice a difference after the first bath) then once every two weeks, then use when you start to see issues.(Issues, little red pussy bumps), and remember a dog that is bathed often, retains water in its ears and it is very smelly, Bactine works real good as an after bath ear cleaner.
If you could tell me how I will post pictures of what I went through.. It is amazing, and she was totally clear in about 4 weeks.

Please consider breeding only clear dogs to clear dogs, pick a black or red just make sure he/she is clear of life ending genitic charatistics.
If we all did this in about 20 years we would not have to worry about it any more.

Thank you
Janet :)

[andyhilt27]

You can breed a #1 BBDD or a #3 BbDD to any dilute and not produce a dilute. Both parents must have the recessive gene.

[Kissntell]

Andyhilt27:

You made me laugh about your bitch that stunk to high hell...

Well...I have to tell you that I owned a red bitch that lost her coat... had numerious staph infections and stunk to high hell too. She looked like ole baldy. I never had this problem until I allowed her mother to be bred to the "reputible" breeder's dog. There was no dilute.

The Reputible breeder denied ever having any skin problems though right in front of me were examples of the same.

So this skin thing is not just in the dilutes. I know of someone who had it in a black too. Insodently, this black came from the same "reputible" breeder.

(I have my own thoughts about "reputible" breeders in that since then, I have been through "reputible" dogs with copper toxious, cardio etc. Yeah, yeah all "reputibles". There is no reputible breeder in my book. Soon there will be no more Dobermans. Breed to the ring my friends. Its all in the win! You just have to know your pedigress because nobodys a talkin!) And now I have shown my true colors and pet peeves. :p

I have went from a house of 5 Dobermans to no Dobermans almost overnight. And when it came to finding another Doberman that too was a nightmare. I went from an unknown pedigree with health to the famous pedigrees with all the bad health as fast as a flash. Reputible breeders again.

Now my two cents is in.

I really think with coat it is allergies. I spent a ton on money at the vet's trying to cure this red bitch.

She ate her blankets. I couldn't stop her. So to avoid an obstruction, I had to take away her blankets. Guess what she stopped itching. She then ate newspaper and tore them into pieces. This made her stink even worse. :eek:

What I found later was that if I washed and rinsed the blankets two times the itch was not so bad.

So there were all kinds of treatments for this we went through. The worst were the stinking cysts and boils on her back. They stunk! But, quote, "We've never had this in our line." B.S. :mad:

Sorry folks...I don't post more often because I can't physically use a computer much anymore. I just had to tell this side of the story. :(

[Elaine]

It sounds like you were getting it at both ends. I hear your frustration... your utter exasperation with your breeder, and it sounds like veterinary medicine was an expensive waste of time as well. Seems like you had to pretty much to go it alone. :(

I have said this so often it could be my by-line, but it is frustrating to turn to veterinary medicine, trying to solve a problem, only to find lots of bills and no useful answers.

When problems arise, we can scream and throw darts at each other till the cows come home... but that won’t help us breed healthier dogs. Veterinary medicine simply doesn’t have many of the answers we need, and it won’t unless we have the collective will to fund the research to get the answers we need. Til then, we are shadow boxing in the dark.

What ever is true of your breeder, I doubt he/she wanted to fail you or the dog. The breeder may simply have been at a loss to explain and offer solutions. She may have felt defensive and blamed you. I think at heart we all want to be successful. As breeders we want to be creating and/or perpetuating healthy animals. As buyers, we want there to be answers and ways to avoid transmitting disease. But as of August 30, 2008, we simply don’t have the science or the tools to guide us.

In your situation I would have looked at:

1. First and foremost, how early was the puppy started on solid food? Many people do not know this, but starting a youngster on solid food too early can set up an animal (or human) to have allergies for life. This is not my anecdotal opinion, it is medical fact. Your breeder may have thought they were doing no harm by starting the puppy on solid food at two- two and a half weeks. Doing so is a great way to create a lifetime of allergies.

2. I would look at the vaccination protocol. Was this puppy given a series of four 7-seven way combined shots, maybe even throwing in a rabies shot too, all starting at about 7-8 weeks. (If so you can look forward to a life of autoimmune problems and all sorts of other problems as well).

The pet Doberman you purchased may be healthier simply because it was lucky enough to have been bred by someone who, for what ever reason, let the puppies nurse until they were four weeks old and did not inoculate early with combined shots. For all the anecdotal stories we hear that “my pet is healthier than my dog from the reputable breeder”, it may be true, not because of genetics, but because of benign neglect.

I don’t know who your breeder was, and I’m not taking sides or defending them, but did the breeder assert that the dogs they bred that lived with them did not have the problems you experienced? That may have been true (through absolutely no fault of yours). If, for the sake of argument, we consider for a moment that it was true, then we would need to look very carefully at the environment. It is a scientific fact that epigenetics can override genetic expression. In additon to the amounts of regular exercise and positive social interaction, I would have looked at the toxins in the immediate environment, including the laundry soap and fabric softeners you used, and at the cleaners you use, and at the chemicals you use outside on your lawn and shrubbery.

[Athy]

[QUOTE=Kissntell;3015]

<<Well...I have to tell you that I owned a red bitch that lost her coat... had numerious staph infections and stunk to high hell too.>>

<<The worst were the stinking cysts and boils on her back. >>

FWIW. I agree that staph infections, stinky pimples and an unpleasant smell are often the result of food or contact allergies and they occur on all color Dobes, not just the dilutes. It's worth your time to go to a homecooked diet for a while (I have a nice easy recipe that will see you through for a while), see if there is an improvement, and then start working with varieties of kibble if kibble is your preference. There are some nice potato and duck, potato and fish and other diets that will help to reduce or even eliminate food allergy effects.

Dobes with thyroid imbalances smell funny too - kind of mousy or mildewy. They will also get funky coat and skin problems. Get a thyroid panel done and it may be as simple as two inexpensive pills per day. And of course, this problem isn't reserved for dilutes either :p


Athy

[dobesign]

"Well...I have to tell you that I owned a red bitch that lost her coat... had numerious staph infections and stunk to high hell too. She looked like ole baldy. I never had this problem until I allowed her mother to be bred to the "reputible" breeder's dog. There was no dilute"

There is a HUGE problem with hypothyroid dogs, and it DOES lead to all of these symptoms. My particular gripe with this is that thyroid status in dogs is checked at only ONE point in the day. The vet will often tell the owner that the result was "Normal", which means it falls in the normal ranges
(1-4, or 1-5). Ther problem with that is that if your does gets a 1 at the time of the test it is within normal limits, but it may represent the HIGH POINT in that curve and be below that for the rest of the day. This is huge, particularly if vWD status is affected. Coats develop staph, plus even when they don't they smell like fish. I've seen dogs be "pushed" into a hypothyroid state by surgery or other huge stressor, be medicated for w while then return to the "normal" state after a few months, or stay in a hypothyroid state for the rest of their lives. It's an easy pathology to mitigate, and cheap, but important to deal with beyond words. If the bitch Andy was speaking of was over the age of two (but not exclusively limited to that age) I would bet my grandma on hypothyroid. (Hey Andy, did she also have a "sad" look in her eye? That's also a clinical point, and weight gain even on restricted diet. anal gland issues and toenail growth variations.)

[Kissntell]

Well...I don't have the red bitch anymore. She died of cancer at 11 years of age.

What I found that seemed to work was the washing of the blankets. So I think it may of been an allergy to soap. Yet it wasn't until later in her life that it seemed to go away.

She would itch herself to death when I was gone to work. The itching I believe tore out her coat and then injured the hair folicules.

As to food: At first I fed Pedigree. I know this is a "lessor" food. But I had went off the expensive foods, not because of expense, but at the time because they contained that perservative that pickled livers.

When they took that ingredient out I went back to the better foods. So she was on Nutro Max Lamb and Rice. I had luck with all the other dogs on this. Right now I only have my one Trotyl puppy. She is eating Bil Jac.

I guess my frustration is that I had an "unknown" pedigree at one time that was health free. It wasn't until I bred into the other's pedigree that I got such "skin" problems. BTW this person was begging to breed to what I had.

In my original pedigree of which nobody was really intersted in combining "their wonderful pedigrees" I was getting health and in fact my dogs were averaging 15 years. I had one bitch make 4 months short of 16 years. This is utter truth and can be backed up.

Nowdays you can't find such a thing. But I remember back in the 80's when I had that pedigree no body wanted to take a chance and breed to it except Michelle Penny who is no longer alive. I got good puppies out of that breeding as well. (Ch Jr's McClintock) But he was lacking in top line and that sort of thing will haunt you forever it seems.

I just remember attempting to breed this unknown line, though I showed it myself and didn't do bad at the time. And, the problem was no person wanted to take the chance and breed into it. I feel by this, the Doberman breed lost a chance to get into some healthy pedigree without most of the "crap" going around now.

Now I feel at loss trying to find a decent dog. So I have just this one and I will wait and see how it goes.

I spent $25,000 on copper toxiosis. That is an expensive disease. I had bought that bitch with full intention to show. She was from the number one top dog in the Nation at the time. So now I am pedigree shy.

But I must say that the copper bitch was the absolute best dog I have ever owned which is why I kept her and treated the copper. She ended up dieing of sudden death cardio at 6 years of age playing her favorite game of chase the water out in the front yard. It really took us by surprise because she was followed by the best specialist vet and had her heart checked and passed just two weeks to the day. So don't get me started on this "holter method." It is a waste of time and energy. What a false thing this is being sold as.

If you have ever witnessed sudden death cardio you will never forget it. It is just stunning. It is like someone shot your dog right in front of you. This was the dog of my life. And, I am glad I had her and kept her dispite the copper storage disease she had. The meds on this disease are very expensive which adds to the expense.

Insodently, my old line was VWD clear and thyroid perfect. They were tested via vet gen. My red bitch with skin problems was VWD clear and thyroid perfect.

I guess I am expressing my frustration with the breeders of this wonderful breed. I know of dogs right now that are active cardio and being kept in the hush. I don't feel at liberty to say who or what because that is up to the breeder to disclose. I feel that to mention the pedigrees I've had which were problem is not necessary because due to their health problems they were spayed and never bred. This of course meant nothing when I was recently looking for a puppy. I looked for a year and couldn't find anything of which I would want or without a horrendous "contract."

Some of these breeder's contracts are terrible. You might as well consider it "sponsering" their dogs. It goes like this, "You will show in 45 shows with the handler of their choice and then breed to the stud dog of their choice and then they get 1st and 3rd puppy." Well sorry folks I'm not that stupid. So then you wonder why people go to the "non reputible" breeders found in the newspaper.

I have been real shy on this matter. It is good to express it now. I am very opinonated on it.

I have had my Trotyl puppy checked out liver, thyroid and soon on VWD. The tests I've done have so far have been perfect. I don't believe she will be clear of VWD however.

Now if I could stop this biting behavioral problem I would be in heaven. She loves to bite. She loves to hear you go ouch. It is a real game to her. But it is not a fun game for me. But I've raised and trained many dogs so I am able to work with it. The worst is she loves to have a toy plastic water bottle and run up on you and stick it up your ass right in the hole. She knows what she is doing too! But she is fun and full of herself. :)

I just wish that these breeders would stop breeding dogs with cardio. The liver problem is sort of hard to predict. But the cardio is much easier to predict; but they just keep doing it. In the time that I have been in Dobermans, I have never seen it so bad as it is right now.

This leeds me to believe it is really just all about money. To disclose about health, especially cardio, would make these lines become of little value dollar wise. No one would really want them. Like I said, I am opinionated. And...I am guilty too. I keep my knowledge of pedigrees under my hat so to speak and do not disclose what I know. You see, if I did that sort of thing, nobody would want to sell me a puppy.

Oh well...now I might get "banned" for calling it as I see it. But I think this needs to be seen by the fanciers of this breed. After all we are the guardians of the breed.:)

[Elaine]

Oh well...now I might get "banned" for calling it as I see it. But I think this needs to be seen by the fanciers of this breed. After all we are the guardians of the breed.:)

There is only one person here with the ability to ban anyone... trust me, you will not be banned for saying what you are saying. :cool: We welcome your input.

I think we should start a thread about show contracts... I have seen the “must show at 40 shows with a professional” and X puppies or litters back and god knows what all else.

We are not in favor of contract that you must show a dog. Showing is so expensive, and arguably silly at times... no one should ever be forced to show a dog if they do not connect to the process. For some of us, it is fun, on some level, but it is also incredibly frustrating even annoying at times. If a breeder wants the dog shown to a championship then either don't sell the dog or state it clearly at the time of sale and put the effort into helping the buyer achieve the goal. Not every dog should be shown, not every dog likes the ring, not every dog needs to be a champion to be considered a GREAT dog.



I just wish that these breeders would stop breeding dogs with cardio. The liver problem is sort of hard to predict. But the cardio is much easier to predict; but they just keep doing it. In the time that I have been in Dobermans, I have never seen it so bad as it is right now.

About breeding dogs with cardio in their pedigrees, how on earth do you know if the dog will develop cardio until it does? How on earth do you know which dogs will not transmit cardio? And, if your dog died of something else, how on earth do you know it would not have developed cardio if it had simply live longer (like prostrate cancer in humans). Even more important, for dogs with cardio in their pedigree, who do not develop the disease, it may well be because something about their epigenetics inhibits the expression of cardio. It is likely that cardio is a combination of genetics and epigenetics. So, these dogs that have cardio in their pedigrees, but do not develope cardio, may be extremely valuable to the breed. It is overly simplistic and simply scientifically wrong to suggest that having cardio somewhere in the pedigree means the dog should not be bred. Quite the opposite really, those dogs with the epigenetic structure to inhibit the expression of cardio may actually save the breed.


As for why we think we see it more, maybe we do or maybe we attribute more deaths to cardio than we did before because we know about cardio and we tend to attribute any heart related problem to cardio (when it may not be).

As for all these allegedly healthy pet quality dogs, I have to ask, since most pet Dobermans breeders don’t screen or test... how do we know what they are producing. For example, our rescue Doberman, with almost an entirely none show pedigree, is OFA dysplastic. When we told the pet breeder, he didn’t even understand what that meant and did not alter his breeding program one little bit. Pet people are not truly tracked or monitored, so they can make any kind of claim they like, who’s to know if it’s true or not? People active in showing or active in the DPCA are monitored and for the most part held accountable. Pet people, who breed and sell dogs for $500, don’t often do autopsies on their dogs when they die. Do you really think anyone is able to accurately convey to the world how many pet Dobermans also die of Cardio? I think not. If you paid little for the Doberman to start with, what are the chances that you are going to do an expensive autopsy when it dies? I think just about zero. And even if owners did do autopsies on pet Doberman, who would be tracking the results of these pet dogs dying of cardio? No one.

[doberdogsfd]

I am going to back up E1's play here with the food and environmental factors.

None of the two lines I have in my home have skin issues.
I believe a rock solid foundation on the genetics side and breeders that have have a clue as to what to put together, set me up from Day 1 almost 18 yrs ago with my dogs.( PS..thank you S+E!)
What you feed your dog is primary to how that skin and coat condition is maintained after we have that genetic foundation landed for us.
I come from a almost 20yrs in high level competition as a heavy weight body builder and a lifetime of sport horses. What goes in the mouth is 75 % of what the animal looks like. That includes this animal!

These commerical diets such as Pro-Plan etc, are horrible! Food allergies play a huge role in what is going on with your dogs skin. It is a carnivore folks. MEAT, not corn, rice and wheat with a boat load of crap thrown it to ensure it can sit on a shelf for a year or so!! Holy cow....think about it.

I have fed a solid meat diet to eveyone of my guys years. Right back to my first rescue, Zena. (Who convinced me never to have another GSD and to stick with Dobes.) She was hugley allergic to any type of grain. She ate organic chicken, pure pasture raised beef and organ meat. After that switch to meat...her skin and coat issues disappeared. Clearly...not a well bred girlie..Kimbertal!!!
So, here's the deal. Feed a solid meat based diet ( raw or cook, whatever is your bag) and limit the grains and veggies! I bet you, you see a change in the issues. I feed raw and a variety of protiens through out the week to them. High quality protiens. We eat organic and clean, they get the same.

When Elaine mentioned chemicals and detergents, they also plays a major role in these issues. Try limiting the chemicals in their environment and there should be a change. Organic cleaners and detergents are great and there are no perfumes. Yuck!

None of you can tell I am massively passionate about food or the chemical stuff, huh? :)

Ok...I want to stay away from the dilution personally. I have,over the years seen the very direct connection to fawn/blues and really bad skin issues.
Also with a predisposition to hypothyroidism.
I agree with Andy and not wanting to produce them from a consumer stand point and I am a black Dobe lover.....like E1 who loves her reds, I am drawn to black...specifically black dogs.

Alrighty....stepping off the soap box...later....Cheryl

[Elaine]

All I can add is, I wanna come live at your house Cheryl and have you make my meals.

Without any question, Cheryl's dogs are in superb condition, with shinny glossy coats, good muscle... toned, but not a hint of fat. Now all she needs is a red Doberman to prove that it is not in any way due to having black Dobes :D

[doberdogsfd]

Thanks Elaine!

Bob and I both would love a little red girl to join the family! I will be happy to help provide the proof! :)


Cheryl

[Kissntell]

Well we know that the seven original sires gave their input of cardio to the future of the breed. Of the seven, I think 3 were affected.

So cardio was given to us by these imports.

However, knowing, and agreeing with you Elaine, re the inherritance of cardio and also seeing that some get it, and some not, I have seen this disease shoot just straight as an arrow through a pedigree.

I have also seen on Dobquest outright lies re the reason for death in a dog. Who has access to such to put in the info? Because the breeder of my cardio bitch told me that the mother died of cardio; yet, on Dobequest the reason for death is listed as cancer.

Which gets me on another soap box:

I use to be in DPCA years ago. I was a member for many years. I am surprised at all the membership now. I am also surprised at the expanded kennel names and the breeders' directory.

I dropped out of membership until just recently. I think I went almost 10 years as a non-member. But, I thought that since I bought this puppy, with intentions to show, I should be back in.

I was before in the breeders directory, and still have those printed copies as proof. But now the rules have changed and I cannot be in the breeders directory for 3 years it looks like.

The reason that I dropped out is that I saw the fighting going on and the biggest piece I disliked was the stuff going on with COPE.

COPE is a very worthy cause.

But...I was there when the person doing the "rescue" work was literally using it is as bait and switch. People were coming to see a rescue and didn't like what they saw, (ear up, one down, floppy ears etc.) then it went..."Well we have puppies from time to time and if you are interested, I will put you on my waiting list." I heard this with my own ears! I could have sold up those rescues much better and have placed them. The dog is still of value!

Not only that, dogs at the pound were being passed over unless that person thought that they could be placed. They just plain wern't interested. And that information came to me directly from the animal reg officer.

So I decided that since the dollars I was donating to COPE were being sent to the Chapter Clubs, and this was happening, that I did not want to be involved anymore. It was just placing planned puppies that was going on at the time.

I guess I am really getting bold today and really bringing up stuff that has bothered me for years. I have been sitting by the wayside just taking it in. I have finally had my say.

But of course I would never mention any names or pedigrees etc. This is the thing one learns from experience. I think people who have been in this world before me and longer know even more about these things than I.:)

[Kissntell]

How well I know about foods. You are what you eat.

I took off about 100 lbs and have kept it off for 6 years now. I love it because I go ringside and nobody knows who I am. That is until I go in the ring with this puppy of mine. Then my cover will be blown. (The more I see, the more I am turned off by handlers.)

But I use to come home from work and eat the quick convience foods. That ruiened my health. Those foods are too high in fat.

Now I cook just about everything I eat.

And...I agree on the dogs too. My puppy loves to eat what I grow. I have learned that grapes are bad for dogs. But she loves my fruits and veges out of my yard.:)

[andyhilt27]

As far as staph infections go I can only go by the research I did. It lead me to believe that dilutes were more prone to getting skin infections. Of course that is not to say blacks or reds won't get them as well.

In Lexi's case, it could have been totally unrelated to being a dilute. I was advised by both vets and the breeder that food I was feeding her was a great choice. Pro Plan senistive skin and stomach. I should have disregarded this and tried a different diet. Hell I tried everything else! Other theories were autoimmune, hormonal issues, etc.....Thyroid was the first test done at my orders. We got her at 5 months of age. We brought her home and she had a very bad doggy smell to her. I thought she picked up the odor from being at the shows. Well it came back 2 days after her first bathing. Then came the pustules. Blah Blah Blah....very very frustrating and heart breaking.

[Elaine]

I guess I am really getting bold today and really bringing up stuff that has bothered me for years. I have been sitting by the wayside just taking it in. I have finally had my say.

This is a dsicussion forum... be as bold as you like... :)

[andyhilt27]

This is a dsicussion forum... be as bold as you like... :)

kissntell,
Say what is on your mind.....what is the worst that can happen? You may anger someone, but I have been doing that for some time now!!!:D:D:D

[doberdogsfd]

First let me say that this is Bob Cheryl's husband. This is the first post I have ever made to any forum, I usually sit in the background and read the posts and give my thoughts to Cheryl. That being said I figure today is as good a day as any to get in on the fun.

To blame the Original seven for cardio seems a bit silly to me, had we not imported them the breed we love would not exist in this country. Had the Nazi's who fled Germany after WWII not taken the best of what they had to Central and South America there would probably not be Dobermans there either. As with many things in America the negative gets the "press" and can be over blown at times. All you have to do is watch the Election coverage for proof of that. Let me be the first to say I am fairly new to Dog Showing, when Cheryl talked me into it because it is "fun" I thought we will see. The first year of showing was, well NOT! I thought she had lost her mind. The past year was a blast. However standing ring side and listening to the conversations about cardio made me want to get my heart checked. I heard people talking about getting 10 month old puppies holter tested. I thought why, with everything I have read cardio usually develops later in life. Sure there is cardio in our breed and we must strive to minimize it or rid ourselves of it, but we need to be careful of hysteria. We must stop all the whispering about dogs dying of cardio that are alive and well. And we must stop talking about the dog that died of cardio at 12. Maybe his/her heart gave out because they were old, or maybe it was the dreaded genetic defect. There are environmental factors to consider as well.
I do not think there is a line that is free of cardio. It is in the family tree somewhere. The issue as I see it is when "breeders" are not careful when selecting breeding pairs. I do not see a way to avoid cardio, I do think that an intelligent breeder understands the pedigree several generations back and pays close attention to what is backing up these dogs. That goes for Cardio and all the other genetic issues.
I do understand that there are reputable and disreputable breeders; I have had the good fortune of dealing with the former not the latter. We should all look at the pedigree of the dog we are purchasing and do some background vetting on the breeder we are going to buy a dog from as well. And then we should love them and cherish the time we have with them as it is all too short. If it were 30 years it would be too short. My father and 2 uncles died of heart disease, should Cheryl get me tested twice a year and worry about when I am going die of a heart attack? Probably not, because I could not stand it and from what 2 cardiologist tell me heart disease is passed on from the maternal side. Should she tell me to put the ice cream down and hit the gym, yes! It really all comes down to how one looks at it. People do not health test before they marry or worry about some one in the family that died of cancer 4 generations back.
I think we should do health testing to keep the dishonest "breeder" from gaining the upper hand and to try and minimize health issues. But I also think as with anything we need moderation with the worry, anxiety and testing. The list of things we need to test for and how we need to test has grown quite a bit. Soon there will be so many tests we will need to mortgage our houses to breed or buy a dog. Due diligence and proper background work is the key to not getting burned in my opinion.

This is just my opinion not meant to insult anyone...thanks for listening.

Bob

[andyhilt27]

Hi Bob

[dobesign]

And blacks, with fantastic coats. No itching, no licking, just loveably soft, supple, shiny, healthy coat. I feed pro plan, and have for 20 years, and occasional snacks. We don't really supplement other than the occasional trip for calcium fortification (a sundae at Dairy Queen :p). I know a bazillion people LOVE the all meat and raw and imported from Tibetan yak herders diets. But sometimes a food is just right for your dog, fancy and designer or not. Okay, for snacks, they get Science Diet TD, and sometimes we do a round or two of canned meat (whichever I pick up) on a spoon.:eek: I know everyone is going to try to convince me of the superiority of their diet, but Heck, if it ain't broke don't fix it (an aphorism I dun learnt me in Texas)! I'll stick with my "an idiot can do this and have a great coat and fit dog with all the perks but I bought it at the PetCo" diet. Although Bah wants me to add lemon meringue to the repertoire!:D

[doberdogsfd]

Brenna,

I think each of us have to do whatever works for us. I personally would not feed Pro Plan, that is the great thing we can all have our opinion and do what we think works. The diet we feed has been around for 30 years and is based on an old school theory that has been around since the Dire wolf roamed the earth. Meat Good!!!

By the way Bob says Hi Andy!

Cheryl

[andyhilt27]

I like many others here on DSNN would do whatever it takes to keep a dog healthy. If that meant I had to buy live chickens and personally kill them bare handed to provide the best diet I would do it. Most would.

From a breeding standpoint......dilutes are not low maintenance. I personally chose to breed around it.

[andyhilt27]

and Bob, please post more often!

[doberdogsfd]

I definetly will post more. I might even join and get my own screen name. Thanks Andy for the warm welcome.

Bob

[Elaine]

Hey Bob, Welcome to DSNN... very refreshing to have your perspective... :) If you’d like a separate account, just let me know. And give the kid a kiss from me.

[Kissntell]

Yeah welcome Bob! It is good to share insight and experiences. This is really how one learns. It is not about fighting.

I was wondering...and this is meant in my own lack of knowledge, but did the Natzies really take the Dobermans to South America? That was very interesting to me.

But then we sent South America our dogs too.

Andy as to food...I had to cook chickens with rice for three months and then stuff them down my copper toxic dog. One of the symptoms of copper storage is anorexia. They will not eat. So until the medicine stabilizes the dog, it takes that time to get them to eat. My kitchen literally looked like an "Italian kitchen". There were pots and pans everywhere.

Now consider this: I had two bad wrists at the time. (torn TFC joint) One is still bad in fact. But I did this after the one was fixed with a cast on. Believe me I am an expert at stuffing a dog!

So we do what we need to do for the dogs we love. And...I agree we do not get enough time with them. I have often wondered why it is that the good lord only gives dogs so little time. A horse gets about double that time.:)

[andyhilt27]

I have often wondered why it is that the good lord only gives dogs so little time. A horse gets about double that time.:)


Dogs may only live 1/8th of the life of a human, but they have 4 times the amount of fun! At least Eva does. Joy is happy being on the couch and Tabitha is happy being on a lap away from Eva.:D

[doberdogsfd]

Yeah welcome Bob! It is good to share insight and experiences. This is really how one learns. It is not about fighting.

I was wondering...and this is meant in my own lack of knowledge, but did the Natzies really take the Dobermans to South America? That was very interesting to me.

But then we sent South America our dogs too.



From what I have read there were many dogs brought in during the relocation after WWII. Many of those that relocated after the war had quite a bit of money so they were able to bring their dogs. In addition the German immigrants influenced breeding decisions. In the early days most of the foundation stock was European, especially German imports. It wasn't until about 25 years ago that the American influence took hold, particularly in Argentina. From what I have read the Argentines wanted to stay true to the German Standard while refining the dogs a bit, without sacrificing their ability to work. There are 5-6 imports listed as the foundation for the Argentinean Dobermans. In the last 25 years the lines have been heavily Americanized.

Bob