Re: Idiot Cards ~ The Top Sire in Breed History was LONG [Archive]

Elaine

08-26-2008, 07:46 AM

You may notice this thread is a bit “lite” on substance... there is a reason for that... I am so pissed at the sheer stupidity of these idiot cards sent to judges I have trouble being civil!!!

These frickin cards CHANGE our AKC Doberman Breed Standard because they add an emphasis that our standard does not have. :mad::mad::mad: Our standards specifically says. “The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.” Our Doberman Breed Standard does not prioritize faults and it most especially does not include some bs contrived phase like “predominant faults.”

If the DPCA membership wishes to change our Doberman Breed Standard, there is a formal process for doing so. At no point did we ever agree that people like Burke and Vandiver should be allowed to circumvent this formal process and substantively change our breed standard.

Attached below is a letter sent out to AKC judges along with these Idiot Cards. Included is Burke’s phrase “predominant faults” which is NOT in our breed standard. He lists 5 faults that he has put in this newly created category of “Predominant Faults" they are: oversized; rectangular; sloping top line; overangulated rear; and, gay tail. With respect to gay tails, our Doberman Breed Standard does not even mention “gay tail” far as I can see. How can a gay tail possibly leap to the front of the line of "Predominant Faults" if it isn't even in our breed standard?

Sam Burke may simply not know any better... but Vandiver should. It is hard not to believe that a group of people in the DPCA have their noses out of joint because they are not winning as much as they'd like, so they attacked the dogs that are.

If, as a breed, we were to heavily penalize "rectangular" then we’d have skipped over Ch. Cambria’s Cactus Cash... andthe breed would have missed the huge positive contribution he’s made, because some moron decided we should fault judge, pick dogs apart in pieces and exclude Eddie as “rectangular.”

Though out the Doberman Breed’s history there has been an ebb and a flow, as we work to produce the perfect dog. We have made great strides over the years by incorporating dogs on the outer fringes of the standard, who, when bred correctly, add tremendously to our breed overall. We are going in a very good direction folks, because wise breeders value and use dogs that have some faults along with their outstanding virtues. Take an objective look at many of the dogs from even 20 and 30 years ago... they were not better than our dogs today, in fact many would be excused for lack of merit in today’s Doberman ring. The Doberman in the ring in 2008 is the result of carefully sifting through generations of faults to create a better Doberman with each successive generation. Along the way breeders have relied on the enormous contributions of dogs that had obvious faults to go along with their outstanding virtues. It is the overall dog that we should value... not some idiotic hierarchy of faults, arbitrary chosen to facilitate some petty grudge of the moment.

The breed has gone forward, because forward thinking breeders of vision were not fault judging (not looking at some Idiot Card as a guide). Rather, with an eye to the overall dog, and with the Breed Standard as a guide, they were able to see the outstanding quality of specimens that may also have had a few faults. In order to produce the perfect Doberman we have to recognize outstanding quality when we see it and incorporate that quality into the gene pool.

The Doberman breed is not threatened by “too big” ... we are threatened by “too frickin stupid.” We are threatened by those who ignorantly or willfully make substantive changes in our AKC Breed Standard without going through the exhaustive and comprehensive formal process such changes would require. We are threatened by those who can not see even a few generations down the road and can not see the direction our breed (or any breed) needs to go to keep reaching forward with improved quality in each generation. Most of all, we are threatened by petty stupid people with myopic self serving agendas.

Seems to me that there is a group with in the DPCA who make one lousy decision after another... like distributing these idiot cards... which inflame half the membership... and are ultimately destructive to the breed.

Boy, I’m sure glad I cooled down before I finished this post. :mad:

Rauschund

08-26-2008, 08:28 AM

I totally agree! First of all, you do not walk on your tail.........BUT....you do on your legs, and there is no mention on the card about things like bad fronts, which I am seeing alot of, and slab sided dogs.........sigh.........
No dog is perfect, but like you had mentioned, just being long is not the worse fault in my opinion. My favorite thing to do is put myself in the position to see the down and back at a show, and if the handler moves the dog correctly...SLOWLY....I can tell more about a dog then I can throughout the rest of his performance.

Elaine

08-26-2008, 09:12 AM

Aside from the process where by these idiot card were generated and distributed, these idiot cards are so childishly basic, they are an insult to AKC approved judges. I’d imagine many simply threw the idiot cards in the trash. Think about it, the idiot card does not say much for our judges today if they actually benefited from such triviality. The cards are an insult to old timer judges, new judges and/or provisional judges, who, in order to properly judge our breed, are required by the AKC to read and understand the breed standard... the whole frickin standard... not five arbitrarily chosen faults. If judges actually need to rely upon so simple a card to improve their judging they should not be judging. Even more on point, this idiot card encourages the very thing that the AKC teaches judges NOT TO DO... i.e. the Idiot card promotes and encourages FAULT JUDGING, which the AKC, at their judging seminars, specifically instructs judges not to do.

This reminds me of a time several years ago when, out of what appeared to be jealousy, a group of people made a very transparent attempt to harrangue a certain dog, who was BIS quality... and large. The attempt failed because the membership said "no." This Multiple BIS dog went on to be one of only two Dobermans in our Breed's history to be both Top 20 Conformation and Top 20 Obedience. By any standard, he is a credit to our breed. Was he the perfect Doberman, “no.” Is he an excellent Doberman, “Absolutely yes.” ... and the proof is in his contribution to the gene pool.

RonBabics

08-26-2008, 11:02 AM

I couldn't agree with you more. I have argued the same point. I think it is quite clear that a few people in the DPCA decided to send out these stupid cards as their attempt to re-write the standard to penalize their pet peeve faults. Some of them also breed and compete. Is it really any surprise that bad toplines, lack of front or rear angulation, restricted movement, lack of bone, soft temperments etc... didn't make the list?

There is no doubt that these cards highly encourage fault judging, which takes little or no talent. Again, consider some of the sources. When I first heard of these cards I tried to get a copy, I was pleasanly suprised to learn that a few judges I know tossed them in trash, especially when they saw some of the folks behind them.

Most of the breeders and handlers I respect in this sport think these cards are a stupid attempt to by less than talented judges to reshape the standard to say things it simply does not say.

I doubt in the long run these cards will have much impact because respected Doberman judges are not going to all of sudden change their way of thinking simply by some moronic "fault card" sent out with an obvious agenda.

The bottom line for me is I would allow my 4 year old daughter to choose a dog for me before I would allow some of the people involved with these stupid cards. And I would be willing to bet she would have a much better success rate.

Absolute

08-26-2008, 11:49 AM

As an accomplished breeder I am so curious to know what are we in the breed are supposed to do with all the puppies who have these so called “predominate faults?” Do we send them for medical research; sell them as pets; give them to rescue, all the while never taking into consideration their virtues?

And, after the Doberman breed becomes two small, too falling off at the croup, too straight in front, too lacking bone, too shy, too vicious, too lacking in balance and substance, where will the breed go then? After we ’ve put all these dogs in pet homes, where they are spayed or neutered, how the heck will we get back the virtues that the authors of this card failed to recognize? Where will the breed go then? Will we have to print a whole new set of cards for light-bone, steep-crouped, straight-fronted, unbalanced, under-angulated, ill tempered Dobermans?

A poster above mentioned my dog being the focus of intense jealousy. What I always found interesting was the hypocrisy of the people going after my dog. One of my sharpest, most sanctimonious critics came out with a big dog the following year. So, I guess it was okay for him to show a big dog, just not okay for me to do it. What a hypocrite! His integrity blows in the wind, depending on what he has to do to make a living. Another of my dog’s critics had a Top 20 dog out a few years earlier that she was showing, that was even bigger than my dog. Again, she must have felt is was okay for her to show a big dog because that’s how she makes her living.

When people tell me what a dog’s faults are, I’ve always said, “Now that you’ve TRIED to tell me how much you know by telling me what’s wrong with this dog, why don’t you tell me how much you really know by telling me what’s right with the dog.” Most anyone can see what is wrong with a dog, it takes real knowledge and expertise to see what is right. Even my three year-old niece can tell me a dog is big... but we’re not going to give her a judging license.

Opinions come and go; records last forever. For those who want to diminish the value of records, I ask, “If records mean nothing, why do we bother to show dogs?”

RonBabics

08-26-2008, 12:44 PM

Hey Philip, perhaps we are not giving the people behind the cards their due respect, outstanding dog men and women that they are.

I have had some time to reflect over my morning coffee and after carefully reviewing the cards and the people behind them I have decided to have Trotyl neutered tomorrow because he has way too many
deviations from the new "fault card standard." Who the hell am I to question such brilliance? In retrospect, he should have never have been shown and should not have been bred. I do not want to contribute to producing any more puppies that do not get the stamp of aproval from such noted breed authorities.

Also, since Stat was obviously the first big dog in the entire history of the breed to ever win that you should seriously consider neutering him also. He obviously did not meet the aproval of such noted experts, so what are you to do? Let alone the fact that he was sired by the damn devil himself, Lex. You really have no other choice. I know you are probably saying, "but Ron, I have a good eye and have been very successful." No, no, no Philip you simply can not think that way anymore. It is new day my friend, it is the dawning of the genious cards! We have to totally disregard what our eyes and breeding history tells us and totally submit to the true geniueses behind these cards.

I will be back in Georgia this weekend, maybe we can get a little "group" discount on the neutering if we use the same vet? We could apply the savings to a new puppy that the geniusses pick out for us. The straighter, finer boned, croupier the better!

Elaine

08-26-2008, 01:46 PM

Ron,

I can certainly see what you’re saying about neutering Trotyl.... I mean, what the heck has he produced over all this time as a stud dog. What has it been now, 20 months? Does he even have a champion or any pointed get? Has anyone really used him? Is he getting any quality bitchs, and by “quality” I don't mean Top Twenty BIS bitches, I mean bitches approved by the card people. Are reputable breeders using him? And by “reputable” I mean the card people. I say he's had enough time to produce, cut those nuts off now before he completely ruins the breed!!! The sooner the better... it will free up space for you to get one of those Idiot Card dogs.

Actually, I think we should all consider our dogs to be expendable, subject to the transient ever changing whims of those card people, who have contributed so much to the breed... like.... ahhh? ahh? Well... it will come to me what they contribute... in the mean time, Off With Their Nuts!!!
-E

pitbull

08-26-2008, 01:49 PM

Don't get crazy Philip and Ron. Don't neuter those boys yet. I know there was a reference in the Pipeline recently that some judges are "offenders" and will actually put up these faulty specimens. Maybe we can get a list of "the offenders" going here -- so at least we know who to show these dogs to -- while there still might be time.

Sophia

doberdogsfd

08-26-2008, 03:27 PM

Bob and I are of the opinion that the Standard represents the ideal / perfect Doberman. Now that being said, we all know there is no such thing as the Perfect Doberman, our thought is the dog is to be judged according to what best represents the Standard in an overall package. based on a premise that every dog has at least one fault, it would be logical to assume that the judges would not be judging the faults but rather those attributes which are best represented in the Standard.
It would seem that a better course of action rather then changing the Standard would be to create a breeding program that is in line with the Standard. Much like the Contstitution of the United States the Breed Standard has room for interpretation , as with many things judging is slightly subjective and left to the good sense of the judge. The use of Idiot Cards would imply a lack of ability by the judging panels to inturpret the Breed Standard correctly. Our belief is these judges have their positions for a reason. Although we do not always agree with their decsion, we must trust them and the Standard.
Would it be better to have a dog that 98% meets the Standard but is a bit tall and have him not be put up because he is being judged by the fault not the total package? I think not. We also do not believe the Standard should be modified without a majority of the Doberman community agreeing to the modifications. Much like The Constitution which needs an amendment in order to modify it and requires due process and a majority vote, so should the Breed Standard.
We are wholesale opposed to any change in the Breed Standard at this time.

We must look at the dogs like Trotyl, Stat, Monty and we are sure others who are throwing correct puppies to lead us back to the Standard.

It would be a tragedy to have the will of the few forced upon the will of the many.

Cheryl and Bob

RonBabics

08-26-2008, 04:05 PM

Cheryl wrote:
"we all know there is no such thing as the Perfect Doberman, our thought is the dog is to be judged according to what best represents the Standard in an overall package. based on a premise that every dog has at least one fault, it would be logical to assume that the judges would not be judging the faults but rather those attributes which are best represented in the Standard."

Cheryl,

While I agree with your logic about judging a couple of things need to be in place for a judge to do that. Besides the obvious ethical factors, a judge has to have an eye, talent to actually spot outstanding features. Fault judging is so much easier.

It has always amazed me how horse people who really don't know anything about Dobermans can walk up ringside and pick out good Dobermans and some of our longtime self proclaimed experts could not pick out a good dog to save their lives. Some of these people can quote every correct angle measurement and explain how every bone is connected, and even write numerous articles about it. But watch them judge. They simply can not see it. I remember watching one of the "founding fathers" of these cards judging at a National several years ago and people were openly mocking what a horrible job they were doing. Not the normal dog show griping, I mean actually saying the person didn't have a clue, and they were proving it for all to see. I thought Moe's comment of "Ray Charles could have done a better job" to be pretty accurate.

And these are some of the same folks putting out cards telling others how to judge. Kind of scary. I have no problem whatsoever sending out a reminder of the ideal. That is the way our standard is written. But to inject personal preference into how individual faults should be weighed and put that out as an official publication from the DPCA....yeah I have a problem with that.

RonBabics

08-26-2008, 04:08 PM

Sophia, did the Pipeline actually refer to these judges as "offenders" or anything close to that? If so, do you know who wrote the article?

Elaine

08-26-2008, 04:43 PM

Page 34 of the Summer 2008 Pipeline
Judges Education Report
Bob Vandiver

July 2008 Report
The Judge's Committee has struggled with the constant complaint of poor judging of our breed and how we may help resolve the problem:

The committee decided that part of the problem may be that the Illustrated Standard is too lengthy and detailed and may be too much information for the typical judge.

There was an article recently that described the learning process in which the author stated that people remember and learn best when just a few important items are presented (preferably no more than 5 to 7). We decided that might be the best approach to help educate the judges on the most important characteristics.

Some of our biggest offenders seem to be those who have been judging the breed for many years, but haven't attended a refresher seminar or studied the Illustrated Standard. We believe that they are seeing the breed develop certain fads that are winning, but aren't correct. The Committee believes that these judges need a short reference document that summarizes the most important characteristics of the Doberman.

To address this problem, we developed the laminated card that was included with your copy of the Pipeline. We entitled it "Doberman at a Glance." The front of the card shows the ideal dog with the bisected square box to reinforce that this is a square breed with leg length equal to body depth. We listed the most important breed characteristics and tried to keep it as short as possible so that we didn't dilute the message. Our intent was for the judges to help us bring our breed back to its proper make and shape, with correct angulation, head and movement. This was quite a challenge, because everyone that has seen it has "just one more" important breed characteristic to add, but we were determined to keep it short with the absolute essentials only.

On the reverse of the card are graphics of the correct movement and the correct head as well as a list of the five most predominant faults. The committee discussed the common faults that most detract from breed type and are consistently ignored by judges. We unanimously agreed on these five.

A preliminary layout was made and presented to the Board of Directors at the National in Fitchburg. The Board unanimously approved of the concept with a final layout to be presented to the Board later in the year. The layout was later presented to the Board and approved. "Dobermans at a Glance" will be mailed to all judges who are approved to judge Dobermans and Best In Show. There are nearly 900 judges who will be receiving this and the accompanying letter whose text appears on the facing page.

All DPCA members are receiving "Dobermans at a Glance" with this Pipeline. We ordered extra cards to be used as handouts at future seminars.

We hope that there will be some improvement in judging as a result of this effort. .•.
Respectfully submitted,
Bob Vandiver
Judges Education Chair

Elaine

08-26-2008, 04:45 PM

It appears that our DPCA Board gave this committee the authority to act on the simplistic and entirely subjective conclusions reached by this committee. I do not recall that the general membership was consulted. Hard to say who’s judgment is worse... Vandiver’s committee or the Boards.

Who are the members of this committee to decide all of these wonderful things without input, deliberation from and a vote of the general membership?

It appears that, based upon an uncited article, which references a fact about the capacity of human memory, this committee decided to change our Breed Standard. If this committee had bothered to investigate further... and consult experts on human memory, like Dr. Elizabeth Loftus of Stanford University, they would have understood a process called chunking... which allows for the memorization of much larger amounts of data, like, say, our entire standard... not some arbitrarily chosen list, favored by the few.

I see again and again that the committee believes this and that and unilaterally decided this and that... where is the input of the general membership? The committee decided there was a problem, and then decided that they would solve that problem as though they have the right to change our Breed Standard.

RonBabics

08-26-2008, 05:14 PM

Elaine wrote:

"The general membership was not consulted. Hard to say who’s judgment is worse... Vandiver’s committee or the Boards."

Can I choose equally worse? The card comming out of that committe is not overly surprising, but it is very disappointing to learn that the board actually knew of and approved such garbage.

I am still trying to come to grips with the use of the word "offender" in the article you pasted. Is it me or is that height of sanctimonious BS?

Geez, do we need to start a modern day underground railroad to shield these awful "offenders?" Food for thought...as it relates to Dobermans, perhaps some of these "offenders" just happen to be more knowledgeable, more successful and just flat out better dog people than the author or some of those that pushed these cards? Hush the thought, but maybe, just maybe these "offenders" can spot more than faults that a 4 year old could find. And just maybe they don't need a stupid "fault priority" card to think for themselves.

envy

08-26-2008, 05:26 PM

Sophia, Would these offenders be former breeders, owners and handlers????? :confused: I agree I need a list of those offenders, I need to finish 3 dogs.

Elaine

08-26-2008, 05:27 PM

pitbull

08-26-2008, 05:27 PM

The question that I have is what scientific process was used to determine that these are the most serious faults in our breed at this time??? Did they do a survey of the membership as to what we are seeing in our breeding stock? Did they survey all Doberman judges and see if this is what they were seeing in the ring when they were judging?? Did they check out what was in the ring at the national last year in the breed??? If you come to some broad conclusion that these are the most serious faults we have, you would think there would have to be some studies to back these things up -- not just the opinions of a couple people (some of which don't even breed dobermans.) Minimum I would expect is a survey of the membership -- or better yet survey the breeders in the breeders directory who are actually contributing to gene pool... that's where I'd start.

Sophia
EASTWICK

Elaine

08-26-2008, 05:28 PM

Sophia, Would these offenders be former breeders, owners and handlers????? :confused: I agree I need a list of those offenders, I need to finish 3 dogs.:D:D:D Sign me up for that list!

Absolute

08-26-2008, 06:09 PM

can we get together and build a major for some of the offenders???

dobesign

08-27-2008, 12:59 AM

I'm sure there's a person handy with metal around here somewhere.:rolleyes: We could make a 27.5" one and...or better yet...how about a giant 3D chocolate mould...oh, that won't work for black or blue dogs....Oh, and it's not just testicles. Some of these darn Trotyl puppies (like Moose and Bah) should be spayed immediately!!! You never know WHAT they could turn into, so we had better be pro-active:eek::p.
The cards should have been placed on a transparency so that the judge could superimpose the image on the dog, JUST IN CASE they are INCAPABLE of SEEING a fault (since virtues are invisible). I put MY card in the rose garden. I needed fertiliser!:D

andyhilt27

08-27-2008, 03:53 AM

Elaine2

08-27-2008, 09:48 AM

Aren’t many of these "offenders" top breeders, top former handlers, and top judges in our sport, who regularly judge our most prestigious competitions? Heck, what do they know? Our two brilliant fault card people need to pull these “offenders” aside and impart their valuable experience and wisdom. Oye vey!

By the way, who is on Vandiver’s committee? Who are these people who took it upon themselves to change the Breed Standard?

I really have to think long and hard about entering my guy in shows going forward.:(

Elaine

08-27-2008, 11:32 AM

Spoke with an AKC Board member this morning about this Vandiver Fault Card.... categorically, there is a formal process for changing the breed standard, which these committee members completely ignored. We know who is on the DPCA Board, but I am not sure who is on this Vandiver committee.. I hear Judy Doniere’s name thrown about... maybe someone here can find the committee members names on line.

pretty dobe

08-27-2008, 01:26 PM

OH NO Philip..... You can't get rid of Stat's family jewels now....I'm too close to getting one those "Predominately Flawed" bitches....:(:( Please reconsider.....;);):)

fabertdobes

08-27-2008, 01:43 PM

I have found over our 30 yrs in dobermans that a lot of things we call faults should be called preferences from one person to the other.
For myself i cant stand a round croup and much prefer seeing a gay tail than a tail almost in the bu....you know what I mean...
as for longer vs shorter there was years i saw longer dogs than i like with sway backs and other years some dogs to short backs who could get no where. It depend a lot on the top stud that seems to be in fashion.

The secret i guess is to be breed closest to standard ...

By the way guys do you think they could come up with cards telling the judges to judge the dogs and not the person at the end of the leash?

:rolleyes:

andyhilt27

08-27-2008, 01:59 PM

By the way guys do you think they could come up with cards telling the judges to judge the dogs and not the person at the end of the leash?

:rolleyes:

That would be fantastic!!!! I then would consider getting in the ring.

Athy

08-27-2008, 03:05 PM

How in the hell is a gay tail going to inhibit a Doberman from performing any task at hand? Unless of course the task at hand is winning a beauty pageant sanctioned by the AKC.

Louis Dobermann would not have faulted a gay tail. The tail would have been docked so short it would not have a chance of being gay.

Andy's post got me to thinking about gay tails... and I realized that I didn't entirely agree with Andy's comments here - sorry Andy :o

Depending on the task at hand, I think that a gay tail might have an impact on the dog's ability to perform well. And I'm not convinced that the length of the dock has any impact on if a tail is gay - a short dock might disguise a gay tail to an extent but the problem that makes the tail gay is still there. Right?

I'm no confo expert but as I understand it, gay tails are associated with a flat croup -- not the length of the dock. While a short dock may kind of hide a gay tail, the croup and tailset still won't be "right" conformationally, structurally. Per our standard, we want to see a slightly rounded croup rather than a flat croup in our Dobes.

As I understand it (and again I am the rankest of novices so please forgive my poor words if I do not convey properly!), a correct tail carriage/set is important in that the tail is supposed to provide balance and be a kind of rudder while the dog is moving out. So if the tail isn't "pasted on" correctly, it means the dog's structure isn't entirely correct and will likely affect the dog's movement.

Maybe some of you folks that are smarter about conformation and structure in an animal can speak to this more clearly than me - I'm not talking about the cards here, I realize I've gone down a side path here. But I would be interested to hear some discussions about what a gay tail really is, what causes it and why we don't want it on our dogs, regardless of how much significance the fault may have in the confo ring.

Athy

andyhilt27

08-27-2008, 07:08 PM

Athy I thank you for your response to my post. With these idiot cards I fear that the first thing the judge might look at is Eva's gay tail. Her croup can at times be rounded and other times be dead level. I know it is a "fault". I would hope that her bone, substance, neck, and lovely head shape would prevail over her gay tail. She has good movement and would no doubt perform any task required of the breed. She is a pleasure to have around. Every day I watch her running in the yard and she often stuns me. She will always be considered good breeding stock in my eyes. I think she has a lot to offer the breed. Earning an Akc championship may not happen.....In spite of that she will be the start of my limited breeding program.

I have rookie eyes and eyes that are biased when looking at her. She did get more than a second look against a specials bitch in the ring. So that made me feel better. I have a feeling had she been older and perhaps more "polite" in the ring she would have won.

Obiviously Athy I would rather her not have a gay tail. But it what it is. And no, by no means is that her only fault. But overall I think she is a very good package. Fearless, intelligent, excellent prey drive, and very intimidating in questionable circumstances(very very alert). I have no doubt she would do what it takes to defend me and do it well.

These are only my thoughts and rookie opinions. I only know at this point what appeals to me. These views are of course subject to change.:D

Elaine

08-27-2008, 07:37 PM

The AKC bible - The Complete Book of Dogs defines a gay tail as: “A tail carried above the horizontal.”

Our Doberman Breed Standard only says this about the tail: " Tail, docked a approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert."

The term gay tail is not in our Doberman Breed Standard. I suspect that these committee members considered a gay tail to be a tail the curls forward, which is about how every undocked Doberman I have ever seen carries their tail... and I suspect that what appears gay is simply too long.

Since our Doberman Breed Standard does not even mention a Gay Tail, how these committee members took it upon themselves to elevate a non-existent fault (under our Breed Standard) into some contrived “predominant fault” defies reason. Again, our Doberman Breed Standard does NOT belong to Vandiver or any member of any DPCA committee.

As for what anyone means by a “gay tail” ... definition varies so widely from individual to individual that what is “gay” for one person may not be “gay” for another.

The tail is the visible extension of the spine... and where the tail comes from the body is a reflection of the angle of croup... so, if you think of the croup, from Ilium to Ischium, as being at a 30 degree angle to the spine... with the hip joint at about 4/6th of the way from the Ilium, then if you change the angle of the croup, you in theory see a difference in how the tail is carried. And, as Athy mentions... in quadrupeds with more level croups and a smaller inside angle of croup to spine, the angle of the hip joint is shifted and the movement changes. In horses with more level croups than we would desire for a Doberman, like Saddlebreds, Tennessee Walkers and many Arabians, the rear movement is more behind the point of hip than animals with a 30 degree angled croup. For a Working Dog like a Doberman, we want the reach under the dog with the rear leg balanced with the follow-through behind. The angle of the croup is not an arbitrary or trivial matter. Too level of a croup and the attendant unbalanced exaggerated rear movement, where too much movement is behind, is conducive to weakness and is entirely at odds with the Doberman Breed Standard's mandate for endurance and speed.

Elaine

08-27-2008, 07:52 PM

Another thought... for those reading this with a critical eye... . just for the fun of it, try to put into writing any aspect of how a dog moves or how they are built and you will immediately see why each and every word you choose is important to the overall meaning... and why you do not condense the Breed Standard describing our Doberman into five points on an Idiot Card.

doberdogsfd

08-27-2008, 08:32 PM

My first champion, CH. Deer Hollow's L' Aventure` CGC, STT (Flex) pointed his 3rd time in the ring at all of 8 months old. Judge Wanner gave him his first 2 points.
The judge was kind enough to come over and tell me and the stud dog's owner(who is a friend of mine), that he was just lovely, except for his gay tail.
The point, he went on to win the Grand Futurity at Penn-Jersey that season, BOB from the 12-18, G4 that day at 12 months , back to back majors in Ohio, in the days when the majors and specialties were 75+ entires. Oh ya and finished at 15 months old in Pittsburg, beating Specials dogs to go G2 to the Schnauzer that won Westminster's Working Group that year.

Clearly we judge to the standard and this dog had a great overall package with killer movement and an intesity in the ring to match his grandfather, Basteque's!
The dog was as sound and a good a working dog as he was a show dog...gay tail and all!! Whatever!!!

I am helpless posting photos...so if E1 will take pity....I will have her post it for me.

Cheryl

Elaine

08-27-2008, 08:59 PM

Cheryl,

Here is your boy Flex... as for his hideously "gay tail" honestly, someone, somewhere needs a smack upside the head.

Btw, is that judge Lee Canalizo?

doberdogsfd

08-27-2008, 09:03 PM

No kidding, huh?

Now that dress on the other hand.......sorry couldn't help myself.

Cheryl

andyhilt27

08-27-2008, 10:05 PM

Here is a gay tail!!! The handler is not forcing it up at all. I hate the way she is presenting herself in this photo. Her topline does not look that bad. I will take more phots soon. I wasn't present when this photo was taken.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/andyhilt27/puppies021.jpg

doberdogsfd

08-27-2008, 10:12 PM

No, it is Judge Bosley and Gwen De Milta handling, that was Flex's first weekend out with her. He went WD for the major the next day under Mrs James Clark.
Flex started with a very good friend of mine, Carol Knock, Mrs Collins now. Carol put the Grand Futurity and the 1st breed on him.

Cheryl

Absolute

08-28-2008, 11:22 AM

Our Doberman Breed Standard does not belong to Burke and Vandiver, or to any individual, it belongs to the Doberman Breed. Our Breed Standard is the blueprint for the ideal Doberman and that blue print should not be changed capriciously or arbitrary to accommodate the petty fleeting whims of a few people who’s dogs are not particularly competitive at the moment. Heck, if it were that simple, I’d change the breed standard with every dog of mine that goes in the ring, so that I could have the edge over my fellow competitors.

Here's a simple truth, though we have one Breed Standard, knowledgeable people can interpret it differently (within a range). That diversity of opinion is GOOD for the breed... it is healthy for the breed. No one small group should ram their interpretation of the breed standard down our throats. Doing so is not good for the breed. And, arguendo, if there were a group whom we would entrust with such unilateral power... it would categorically NOT be these fault card people, if for no other reason than that they have demonstrated a utter lack of judgment by generating and distributing these idiot cards.

DO these people actually think that if you did have a perfect Doberman and bred it to a perfect Doberman (first of all, is everyone ever going to agree on that?), that they get all perfect Dobermans? And even if we did get one great one, would none of the others have any of the heavily weighed faults? Wouldn't what's behind these dogs pop up in the pedigree sometime? We’d still have the problem of what do we do with those puppies. If these card people have it so figured out, let’s go see their stock and breeding programs. Talk is cheap!! Let’s see something.

I love these people who are authorities, but they’ve never produced anything of record, some have never even bred. If it was as simple as just talk, we could all give up the hard work and sweat and just give instructions. For these card people I want to say, show me yours!!!

Obviously these card people have never been involved in breeding different types of livestock. They have no understanding of how to produce generations of quality. Experienced breeders understand that when you're breeding over generations, faults will pop up. You don't simply discard these animals, instead you consider the severity of the fault in the context of how important it is to the overall animal and you work with the next generation to eliminate that fault while preserving the animal's virtue.

envy

08-28-2008, 12:58 PM

Hey guys, Maybe we need to stop and think about these wonderful cards. We can work this to our advantage. Let those fools keep breeding what they breeding. Let our dogs keep kicking their a--. Us offenders of the breed will keep producing the beautiful dogs were are and they will continue to lose!!! I have finished 2 dogs and 2 that only need 1 point or 2 to finish. That will be a total of 4 dogs finished in 5 months. Wonder how many they have finished in the last year or so?

janetoppedal

08-28-2008, 03:14 PM

How can a specific person, take it upon them selves to give the judges an out line (idiot card) of how he or she interpets the breed standard?
Is it not the judges responsability to pick the best dog in his or her class that fits the standard? Maybe he picked a dog that was long because, he or she felt that the long dog could work better or move better than the other one in the class that has crooked legs or moved poorly.
I have been, ridiculed, for showing my blue boy, his conformation is correct, he fits the standard perfectly.. BUT!!! he has a fault, he is missing two teeth.
Unless you open his mouth, you can not see his fault, but dogs with crooked front ends, bad top lines, slab sided, gay tails, straight shoulders, no angles, I could go on and on and on have placed before him...just because he is missing two teeth and he is blue. He can still work and do what ever job with stanama needed to do the job of any working dog, and my all means I would never want him to bite any one, he could do some seriouse damage even missing two teeth.
when we enter a show what we all have to remember, is when entering a show, we are paying for a judges perception of the doberman standard, if we do not agree, we can go speak with the judge, ask what or why, I am learning how else do we learn we have to ask questions yes I ask the judge. he or she is the rep for AKC to give the best dog/bitch the points, we must be open minded, and remember every one is intitled to an opinion.

pitbull

08-28-2008, 03:15 PM

OK, so what is overangulated??? How much overangulation is too much, and therefore makes a dog really faulty according to the cards?? Lots of dogs are overangulated, in fact, most dogs I like are overangulated, and those that are not look posty or staight to me. Angulation is a measurement -- so how much overangulation is a judge supposed to tolerate, or is it none??? The Real Standard defines overshot and undershot with real numbers -- so don't you think, if a committee decides that "overangulation" is a serious fault, since lot's of dogs are overangulated -- we need a clear definition of how much is too much in order to proceed in this direction. The same goes true for "the RECTANGLE fault" -- exactly how much of a rectangle is a fault??? Because lots of dogs are not square -- which means they are "rectangles (OMG)." So since the terms "rectangle" and "overangulation" are measurements, isn't it almost required to define "how much" makes it a SERIOUS fault as opposed to something we simply overlook?? Just Some thoughts.

Sophia

Elaine

08-28-2008, 04:35 PM

The living dog is not abstract theory or some “thing” designed by a committee obsessing out of ignorance and private agenda. A dog is the sum of its parts and how they relate to each others.

So many of these arbitrary requests for this "line" or that "angle" are not functional in the living dog. For example, here is a bitch (whom E2 and I dearly love) who has this supposed “ideal” of being able to drop a vertical line from her ischium to the front of her toe. Achieving this supposedly ideal feature on a living dog puts the croup at too steep of an angle to be correct for the breed. But you’d actually have to breed and observe the phenotypes of different quadrupeds to know that.

Edited to add: Sophia just called and correctly pointed out that my plumb line is not at the rear projection of her upper thigh (ischium), it is at her vulva. So, if we move the plumb line forward a bit, even this steep a croup is over angulated by someome's arbitrary idiot card.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/LogresFarm/Untitled-Ex-with-a-line.jpg

Elaine

08-28-2008, 06:19 PM

Here’s another moment, with the ischium slightly more pronounced because the angle is slightly different.

This sweet bundle of love is on her way to a pet home... to be spayed and adored for life by E2. But I just realized that, as per the idiot cards, we should be showing her and judges should be putting her up because she is: not oversized; not rectangular; not over angulated; does not have a sloping top line; and, does not have a gay tail.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/LogresFarm/another.jpg

but before she goes in the ring, I think I'll photoshop out a few imperfections...
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/LogresFarm/Untitled-4x.jpg

Janice McGerr

08-29-2008, 10:15 AM

Please be genital, I love this dog and I already know were his weaknesses are. If I am reading the post correctly, my Uno in my option fits the cards,:eek: I could be wrong! :confused:(would not be the first time:)) So he should not have finished? But not the stuffed shoulders! I finished him from the bred by class and my face is not well known. In my option he has bone, right size, and not over angulated. Uno could have better shoulder placement, and a little longer in back (very short backed). His movement to me is very good, coming & going & on the go around & keeps his top line strong. I think I will keep him any way!:D And besides my grandson thinks Uno belongs to him and Uno will do anything for him.

I can not seam to up load his picture, so I have asked E. to do it for me. Thank you E!

Here is his page http://rojansdobermans.com/rojans_017.htm

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Uno.jpg

Elaine

08-29-2008, 11:28 AM

Very nice dog, but if you drop a plumb line from his ischium to where we imagine the front of his rear toes are (they are actually hidden in the grass), his toes are well behind the plumb line and he would have to be considered “overangulated” as per the Idiot Cards.

Now of course you are going to say, “well he has to have those rear angles to be in balance with his much desired front angles (which the Doberman Breed Standard asks for)!!! To which any credible breeder would respond, of course he does, which is why those Idiot Cards are in fact... Crappo Del Torro!!!

Actually, if you take a close look at the Idiot Cards, the artist, presumably directed by some committee, seems to feel that the plumb line reflects a correlation between the ischium on the dog’s left side and the front of the rear toe on the dog’s right side.

Janice McGerr

08-29-2008, 11:43 AM

[QUOTE=Elaine;3007]Very nice dog, but if you drop a plumb line from his ischium to where we imagine the front of his rear toes are (they are actually hidden in the grass), his toes are well behind the plumb line and he would have to be considered “overangulated” as per the Idiot Cards.

OMG!:o:o You are correct! Looking closer-better toss him out with the bath water! NOT!

janetoppedal

08-29-2008, 11:44 PM

The card are for those who do not like to get beat at what they feel is their ring..
I too caused a big stinkola.. No I did not send out cards I just showed up at the ring with a nice dog and juinor handler, who has been to Wesminster 5 times in showman ship and has not placed less than third each time...
Had I known then what I know know I would have kept my dog away from all those back stabbing people.
To look at my dog he is very correct, and his movement is well just say OMG!!
What you do not see is.. He is missing two teeth, (the only puppy in the whole litter to be missing teeth, there were nine)the same two teeth his Great Grandma Morgan Hills High Fashion is missing. and you look her up she is one of Fae Straus bitches that is mentioned for being a Champion producing bitch.
So show him an every time he wins, some one writes some real bad crap on Cyberdoebe about the blue dog and his missing teeth.. I am not going away!!
I just have to be careful when he is bred to make sure the bitch has no teeth issues. So far he has tested Clear for everything (he is only 4 and I have not had him Holtered yet) and his OFA is Excellent
Now we have these cards out there telling judgs to look for specific things..
Not Fair..OH well! Every dog has a fault, some you can see some yu can't!!
Have a great day!
J

doberdogsfd

08-30-2008, 11:54 AM

I am simply commenting on something that I find to be an issue in this country. Ok...so no one get their undies in a knot!

We are far too easy in this country on bites and missing teeth. The Grand Dame of Dobermans , Peggy Adamson was the biggest tooth fairy there was when judging. I am all good with that!
In Latin countries and some European countries they need to have full dentition to compete. Right on! The dog is a working dog first and foremost, to bite and hold, it should be a correct bite and proper dentition.

Just because the fault can't be seen, it that acceptable?
Now...this is my opinion regarding this issue and something like bad movement and an ugly head I can not ABIDE!!

Pretty stacked doesn't mean correct.
Cheryl

Elaine

08-30-2008, 12:03 PM

doberdogsfd

08-30-2008, 12:49 PM

I am 100% with you Elaine!!!!!!

CB

andyhilt27

08-30-2008, 03:53 PM

I agree, and to go a step farther, as much as I like full dentition, I also want to see large, fully erupted teeth (not tiny premolars that we see in some lines)... and I want proper occlusion... and I want a broad lower jaw, with good alignment, and no dropped teeth (especially the two front incisors :( ). :)

And, I want world peace and to win the lottery, :D

Joy has dropped incisors!!!! I must tell you that she bit me on the butt one day(long story, it was warranted). I can only imagine the pain had she not be undershot with dropped incisors! It hurt with her severly flawed choppers!!!

Ok, I will tell the short of the story. Erin, my fearless wife,
felt frisky one afternoon shortly after we met. We were play wrestling and Joy felt that I winning the match(I wasn't). Joy thought it was a tagteam match. She snuck up behind me and bit me on the rear. No growling...no barking...she was in stealth mode and got me.

janetoppedal

08-30-2008, 09:33 PM

I would also like to have a perfect bite, But in training, We have found when Levi grabbes on to something, anything, He not only holds it with his Canines, but the two molars behind them, the two missing teeth make a wonderful hole for what ever he grabbs onto, too fall into, which gives him a greater force to hold with. I have had him at a class and the guy in the suite was amazed at his hold, ( he could have been blowing smoke up my butt too, what do I know) and beleive me the last thing I want to so is have him get a hold of me. I am glad he loves me.. Please let me know how to attach pictures and I will send them
PS
The judge today was booed, by several people, (not me) for placing my blue dog 6 out of 6.. It was really ugly, I was showing my moms Min Pin, I wish I had my video camera for that one.
Thanks, One day with all the correct breeding, we will have no health issues, no coat issues, no temperment issues, ad we will have the perfect doberman..
and my you win the lotto and just share a little...

Absolute

09-01-2008, 11:37 AM

Hey, let’s not be too bitter about these cards, they seem to be working. Judges are judging to the standard. When you breed to the standard, you win. I should know, we’ve finished four dogs in five months.

SO, here’s our newest brag. Congratulations to Phillmar ~ Cheryl Green, Phil Martin, Lana Sniderman Berg & Spencer Berg. We finished two new Phillmar Champions yesterday and today, they are:

Today CH. PHILLMAR STATUERELLA finished with three majors, in one month of showing with Diego Garcia. Leesa (who is just less that a year of age) is sired by BIS BISS Ch Phillmar X-Static CD ROM out of BIS BISS Ch Phillmar Thunderella CD.

Yesterday, CH. PHILLMAR MONSTER MANIA V SIMCA finished, in one month of showing with Gwen DeMilta. Manny won 14 pts and 2 majors (including a specialty major). Manny is sired by BIS BISS Ch Eastwick's Meadow Monster – out of BIS, BISS Ch Phillmar Thunderella CD. Manny is owned and bred by Lana Sniderman Berg, Spencer Berg, Cheryl Green & Phillip Martin.

This makes 27 champions for Phillmar and 11 champions for BIS BISS CH. Phillmar Thunderella CD, with six more still out being shown. And it makes 29 champions for BIS, BISS Ch. Eastwick’s Meadow Monster and 16 champions for BIS BISS Ch Phillmar X-Static CD ROM (both with limited breedings).

I'd say these cards are working!