To Logan...and his human Carol

[dobesign]

Four year, lots of joy. Cardio takes them all too soon.:( Logan, you will never be replaced, but you run with your family in Heaven. Help me to find your human a new soulmate, buddy. Preferably a bitch that needs as much love as the Carol you left here on Earth.

[Elaine]

Carol,

So sorry for your loss… the sorrow you feel is a reflection of the love you had for Logan... and that is a gift. I saw this quote in recently…

“A good dog never dies… he always stays... he walks beside you on crisp autumn days when frost is on the fields and winter is drawing near... his head is within your hand in his old way.”
Mary Carolyn Davies

[Sheila]

Carol, look at the starry night and the brightest star shining is Logan who is shining for you. My sincere condolences.

Sheila

[Kissntell]

I don't think there is recovery from the loss of a dog to cardio.

I still have not recovered from mine and its been over a year.

I think that the best die to cardio. At least that has been my finding.

I am so sorry for your loss. I can sure relate to it.

I hope that you find yourself another Doberman to fill in the gap. You of course can never replace what you lost.

I have to say that finding a new dog for me was quite the experience. I hope that you find a new Doberman with ease as it should be.

I express my sorrow for you as one who's been there. I think there is nothing worse.

[doberdogsfd]

Carol,

Cheryl and I have you in our thoughts! It is never easy to lose them no matter what it is from or how old they are.


Bob and Cheryl

[Kissntell]

Until you have personally witnessed the actual event of having a dog playing alongside you healthy and robust at the same time seeing them just collapse fall over and die, you have not experienced the full effect of the shock and dismay of this disease.

You have no time to run to the vet. You have no advance warning.

It is what it is and that is it. It is no different than witnessing someone who may have shot the dog with a rifle. Instant death is never an easy event. It is a shock and an unplanned crisis. It will take your breath away.

All you have is a dead body to pick up. Add to that, that last after death suck in of air and let out. With the billows sound included! It is graffic, vivid and you will never recover from watching this event.

I disagree that it is no different than just loosing a dog in death. Those are hard. But until you witness this senseless event you have not witnessed anything like it.

I have owned many and had many death experiences but until you actually see this event you have no idea...

The dog I lost was the dog of my life. I have owned many Dobermans and never one like this. So no, to me this is a way different loss than any other I have experienced.

Oh yes, and let's not forget the vivid blue tongue of which I had to see go from bright pink to blue right in front of me.

Sorry but I had to put this out because a sudden death to cardio is like nothing else beyond. And, I can relate to anyone who ever has to go through this thing. It is the most cruel thing to watch for the one who loves the dog.

I will say that it seemed that to the dog, it was without any pain or their knowledge.

I will never forget moving my bitch who was limp to her side and having my hand on her chest feeling this MAJOR electrical storm. And the racing heart beat was beating like crazy and then the stop with a thump thump and than a last thump.

I'm sorry but I feel very strongly about this type of death and few people have actually been there to watch it.

The only thing I can say is that my bitch died doing her favorite thing...chasing water coming from the garden hose.

And for me, a major journey came ahead of me to find another dog to replace her. There are a lot of dogs out there, but not ones of pedigrees I wanted or with way too much contract. This led me to look and be dogless for nearly a year.

That was another grief in itself. In fact in just a mater of a few short years, I went from a home with 5 Dobes to no Dobes. I learned in this, just who my friends were as well.

Am I angry...yes I am. I am angry with the so called "reputable" breeders who force people who are good homes to go to the newspaper to find a puppy for the restricitions of their contracts.

I did not get a puppy from the newspaper, but I can certainly understand why these B.Y. Breeders do what they do, and get all kinds of placements. I think "reputable" breeders are forcing pet buyers to look elsewhere. That is another story in itself.

Well...I have had my say. I really don't care, that is how I see it. :(

[doberdogsfd]

I find it hard and inappropriate to place a pain level on loss...a pain meter so to speak.
It is a very personal thing. Regardless of what took them be it DCM, Osteosarcoma, whatever.....the loss is painful and NO one has a right to say to another that their pain is less then their own. That their expierence with loss is less then their own because it was a different health issue your friend and family member was lost to.

I have been in dogs since I was 14 yrs old, GSD to start with. I lost one to brain cancer and the other to a heart based tumor. I had both of them since I was 14 yrs old and they left me at 28.
A rescued girl at 6 to DCM, my 17 MONTH OLD DROPPED DEAD IN FRONT OF ME ON A SHORT WALK TO PEE FROM DCM and the love of my life to Osteo, his daughter to the same and 2 rescued girls to various cancers. The last 4 with in the last 2 yrs every 6 months.
So, please refrain from trying to tell me the pain is different if it is from DCM. I should not assume either, that no one here has lost a dog to DCM.

I would NOT trade one minute of the time I had with any of them! That is the promise we make with them when they come into our lives.....we will be there to help them cross over and to pick them up when they suddenly do cross over with no warning.

Cheryl

[dobesign]

Death is death, and it leaves a horrible void in our lives. We need to learn how to love, minute by minute, the lives we share with others. We, and our beloved dogs are all dying, minute by minute, when you come to think of it. None of us will get out of this alive, either. The point is not how we, or our dogs die, it's rather how we live. I personally don't think this is the venue for a discussion of pain meters. There is no pain that compares. But sometimes, those who have experienced such losses, and those that know they will be facing such losses, need a place, or a voice to comfort them and to say a kind and genuine word. And if no words can be genuine, then to just sit in silence, and think about those who have forever changed our lives, and what WE can to to pass that favour along. What a great way to remember and honour those who have gone before us...:cool:

[Kissntell]

To Carol and Logan, I am sorry to send your sorrowful string into something controversial. I morned with you in your loss and could highly relate.

To Cheryl:

First and foremost you do not know me. So, you cannot state that you have experienced death anymore than I or others. Nor can you state that you have been in dogs longer or lost x number of dogs to x things. You know not what my own experience in dogs is. I am not going to try to get into a pissing war regarding that issue with you.

Secondly, you and your husband or partner have been following me around this forum for some time aways disagreeing with me. That's fine; but, its become somewhat of an irritation at this point, in that it is always a come back from yours that awaits any post of which I put. So, in fact, I expected it.

In death and dieing, how one handles it is always based upon one's own concepts, learnings and culture from which they come. That is how one learns how to grieve.

What you don't know about me is that I have worked in this field as a licensed clinician and what I have learned in experience is so different from what one might expect. Remember, we all learn about death and coping with such from our experiences and cultural base.

So hence, I know that with you, you are basing your opinon on what you know and what your experience has been. That is your right.

I have spent years and years working the trauma team in hospital E.R.'s. In fact it is such an area of highly charged system that it is one of which I really do not enjoy the atmosphere. I will not go into any of the case examples because it is not worth the time or energy. I have seen more than my share of traumas and accidents.

What we do know is that any sudden death of an unexpected experience is always more difficult to work with in families of humans. I am talking about when an accident occurs, or some health circumstance comes up that it is much harder for one to deal with because they had no knowledge that it was there. There is no time for any anticipatory grief.

We are humans and we deal with the loss of our loved pets in a similar or same way.

This can be backed up by the professional journal articles. There is plenty of literature stating this. There are two types of death grief: Anticipatory or planned, and sudden. The literature in professional journal articles states that shocking sudden death in grief and loss is far more difficult for one to adjust to. This does not belittle a planned death. It is just much more difficult to adjust to sudden shock.

There is no time to plan.

Think of the family who had a child hit by a car in the street and killed.

Or the mother who had a perfectly full term baby and something happened during birth and now she has a deceased baby; and, it was her first child.

Think of the wife who comes in and her husband just died of a heart attack of which no one knew there was a problem.

Or even sending a loved one off on a trip and the airliner goes down.

These families have no time to prepare. It makes it very hard for these families. That is why hospitals pay folks with special training and licensure to take care of these families.

I did that work.

Now, I will finalize this and where I am going with this:

I am not here to see who is who, or who knows the most. I am not here to start a flaming war on internet either.

So in the future, I will refrain from posting any more messages on this board.

I have far more things on my plate at this point. This forum has served its purpose for me. I have united with those who have littermates to my new puppy bitch. So my needs are done here.

You have a right to your own opinion and I have a right to mine. But, the professional literature and my experiences do not back up that anticipatory grief and sudden grief and loss are the same.

I know that you will of course have plenty to say after this. But I will remain off this posting now and in the future.

I have far more to do than to play around on forums making fights. That is one of the reasons I began posting here is that I did not see that going on. But it seems that that has in fact changed. :(

[Elaine]

Wanted to chime in here with a few thoughts… I agree there is no objective pain meter. I think we can all agree that as a culture we do not really handle the pain of the death of a loved one in a very healthy manner. And we all have different support systems, some of which are much more healing than others. In this culture we are often encouraged to not talk about death and the pain of loosing a loved one, so emotions build up. I don’t think we can measure grief or judge each other on how we express our grief. Sometimes we express ourselves in ways that may seem unproductive or unhealthy to those on the side lines. We should each use the approach that works for us; we all process grief in different ways. Some of us don’t talk about it, some try to channel grief into something positive, some just want to scream from the roof tops. Sometimes we want to share intimate details that are seared in our psyche, sometimes we don’t. Personally I’ve felt a range of emotions over the years in dealing with the loss of a loved one.

Part of the pain of loosing a loved one is the anger you feel … and YOUR FEELINGS MATTER.

So, if you want to vent and scream and be angry… and if pounding away on the key board helps you… then go right ahead. Scream at the injustice and brutality of death… scream at anyone and everyone… if you are angry, let it out. Not saying that everyone will necessarily understand or respond to you the way you would like … and you may look back in a month or so and say, “Wow, I really had a lot of frustration about the situation”… but many of us have been where you are, we may not have had your exact experiences, but we understand... it’s okay to vent. Let it out. Who knows, it may help ease your pain… it may even help someone else reading this who is not posting... and that is a good thing.

[Sarah Murphy Case]

Carol,

I am so sorry for your loss. There can be no greater pain than losing one of our kids....regardless of the number of legs!

My family and I recently lost our little boy to a Fed Ex driver. Yes, he hit and killed my beloved 15 month old doberman because he was driving too fast up our driveway. The pain is almost unbearable sometimes but because of my family, I must continue to live and be productive. Does it help ease the pain of losing Rylan? No, it does not.

Allow yourself to grieve, to cry, to wail, to be angry, to be sad and then.....laugh when you can......and remember your Logan and cherish the moments you had with him.....

I was finally able to go to our training center in Colorado Springs. There were lots of hugs, more tears, and overwhelming love from folks who exactly what I was going through. One dear friend and I were talking about losing these four legged children and getting another dog. She said, "when you lose a child, you do not create another one to take the place of the lost child; you create another child to have another child who is an individual that you will love, respect, and raise." That same theory applies to dogs. When we lose one, and when we are ready, we get another one so that we may have that bond, love, repsect, connection that we all share with our four legged kids. So, having said all of that, I am happy to say that we will have a new little one in the house in about 8 weeks....will I forget the love of my life that I lost to a careless driver. Not at all.....he will always be with me and the new one will be right there beside him.

Carol, time will make this better and again, give yourself permission to grieve.

sarah

[doberdogsfd]

I was not trying to compare pain folks, read the post.......I was telling you I take acception to the fact that it seems that unless you have lost a dog to DCM, you haven't experienced the pain of loss. Which in my opinion boards on the sumblimely rediculous.
I spend my time in the present with my dogs.....not planning for the inevitable or dwelling on the past. I cherish the time I have and have had with them.
I do have the right to take acception and have my opinions...as do you and I support you being able to express them, as I can.
As for Bob and I " following " you around on every post, do not flatter yourself, it is equal oppurtunity for us.
It appears you have an axe to grind and use this forum as a place to do it...rock on....but understand, you may well get a response positive or negative, that is what happens when we speak our minds.
I am good with a lively disagreement and enjoy a good dust up......so, please keep posting!!

Cheryl

PS...Bob had nothing to do with either post...he has his own thoughts regarding,but he just figured I handled it.

[dobesign]

Let's keep in mind why we are really upset. We're not mad at other PEOPLE on the dsnn site, we're mad/frustrated/crazed/depressed because we have been left behind by one we so loved. A memorial forum is NOT the place to yell at eachother. Maybe choose another thread to do that in? I prefer a bit of respect for those who grieve, and those that know them and the one they have lost.:(

[doberdogsfd]

Good to Go...you are all missing the point.

CB

[dobesign]

Maybe I am missing the point. I thought that a Memoriam section was to memorialise the one who has left us. My bad.:(

[Niko]

Carol,

I am so sorry for your loss. There can be no greater pain than losing one of our kids....regardless of the number of legs!

My family and I recently lost our little boy to a Fed Ex driver. Yes, he hit and killed my beloved 15 month old doberman because he was driving too fast up our driveway. The pain is almost unbearable sometimes but because of my family, I must continue to live and be productive. Does it help ease the pain of losing Rylan? No, it does not.

Allow yourself to grieve, to cry, to wail, to be angry, to be sad and then.....laugh when you can......and remember your Logan and cherish the moments you had with him.....

I was finally able to go to our training center in Colorado Springs. There were lots of hugs, more tears, and overwhelming love from folks who exactly what I was going through. One dear friend and I were talking about losing these four legged children and getting another dog. She said, "when you lose a child, you do not create another one to take the place of the lost child; you create another child to have another child who is an individual that you will love, respect, and raise." That same theory applies to dogs. When we lose one, and when we are ready, we get another one so that we may have that bond, love, repsect, connection that we all share with our four legged kids. So, having said all of that, I am happy to say that we will have a new little one in the house in about 8 weeks....will I forget the love of my life that I lost to a careless driver. Not at all.....he will always be with me and the new one will be right there beside him.

Carol, time will make this better and again, give yourself permission to grieve.

sarah

Sarah,
What wonderful news! I read with tears the story of your Rylan.

I could not comprehend how someone could do such a thing and make a joke of it.

Anyway,,,, I am VERY happy for you!! 8 weeks will be here before you know it!! Please tell us more about you doberchild!!!!! I look forward to seeing pictures too!


Carol-- I am sorry you are going through a tough time now. Memories never fade.

Cathy

[Lou's mom]

Brenna started this thread after I called her in tears cuz I missed Logan so much -- thanks for sending the great energy.

When I read Rylan's story I cried some more, which I didn't think was possible, and is damn hard to get away with at the firehouse!

After my 1st dober left too soon it was hard to go back to 'his' dog world -- when I did people who knew him better than I would come up & say "Lou's mom, I was so sad when I heard." Thus the screen-name here.

My dobergirl [queen of my heart] Nyx passed away last May. It was fairly sudden -- she'd been slowing down over the past month, which I attributed to her age & old injuries catching up w/her, but when she began struggling to breathe I knew it was bad. I left the e-clinic empty handed, and wondered how Logan & I would fare on our own. Just as my heart began to heal enough to consider beginning the search for another dober, WillIAM moved in full-time, having remained in touch as litter-mates & 'Mom's on vacation so I'm staying w/you' buddies since forever.

I've now lost 3, MY three, each in different manners & circumstances, each one hard and painful. Nyx was such a stoic girl: she waited until her lungs were full of fluid to ask me for help. By then there wasn't anything I could do but let her go. Kissntell nailed Logans departure -- the fibrillation, the shutting down, the 71lbs of limp uninhabited flesh to manage, the knowing there is not one damn thing I could've done to make a difference.

With Logan I did get to 'anticipate' his passing: he became symptomatic 3 weeks prior and was responding well to meds. That was 3 weeks more than I got w/Nyx -- 3 weeks of loving him every minute, of being present and aware and conscious of his love for me. We should all pass while doing what we love with those whom we love.


And so now I'm crying, again, at the firehouse. It's okay, the boys are all in bed, so I think I'll get away with it.


What I'm not understanding is how this thread went from 'sorry for your loss' to.... whatever happened in the last couple of days between a few of the posters. One of the things that appealed to me about your forum is the 'rule' at the top: Be Nice, Be Kind. When I visited today I had to check and make sure I wasn't on a different forum.... wow.

So, I'm sad to see that Kissntell won't be sharing on here -- seems like we had some things in common. Thanks to all who were genuine and empathetic, and thoughtful about what they shared. As I told Brenna, the universe will bring the "right" next dober to me; I just hope I can wait that long. Until then, I've got a lot of things to learn about and teach Will.

Pix: Logan & Nyx, Logan

[andyhilt27]

I know that you will of course have plenty to say after this. But I will remain off this posting now and in the future.

I have far more to do than to play around on forums making fights. That is one of the reasons I began posting here is that I did not see that going on. But it seems that that has in fact changed. :(

Kissntell,

Much like any discussions in person, inernet discussions can certainly get heated. Your last post reminds me of one I posted months ago. I was extremely pissed. I vowed to never post again! Now I just pester people on here for the fun of it!:cool:

I can't promise you there won't be other disagreements on here. I can promise you that no one will call you names or insult you directly. Some posts can leave something for the imagination though!:D

You are free to post your opinions without them resulting in blatant attacks. You will get opinions in return though.

:D As for Bob and Cheryl......They follow me around too. :D I just point and giggle. It really messes with them!

[dobesign]

Carol, I think your observations are warranted. I guess people just forget which thread they are on. And which soapbox. We all have them. Logan and Nyx in you pics were beautiful, but even more beautiful on the inside because you helped them to become beautiful 'people'. Be patient. And ask for what you want. It has a funny way of happening!:cool:

[Sheila]

I am so happy for you that you are getting another dobe. We can never replace the ones we have lost but have the wonderful opportunity of enjoying and seeing a whole different personality enter our lives.

Sheila