Control

[Elaine]

Was thinking about how to open a topic for discussion without being intrusive, insulting or threatening to anyone… it is a topic that has come up repeatedly over the past twentyfive plus years in dogs, and I thought I’d take a stab at generating a dialogue. We’ll see how it goes :p … the topic is control… and the shift of power in a relationship when a protégé comes of age and wishes to step out from the control of the mentor. That shift in power and positioning is stressful and I have seen it end relationships.

There is a weird sort of hierarchy in dogs… one that isn’t capable of being formalized or objectively evaluated. There are no degrees earned... no PhDs.. no Masters. “Everyone has an opinion”… so we see around us lots of people scrambling for recognition. Who is to say who’s on top? Does being around for decades mean that your knowledge and opinions are superior… or does it mean that you’ve gotten it completely wrong for a really long time?

Heck, even when the person doesn’t consider another to be a mentor, merely standing up with a differing opinion to someone who's been around a long time can be hugely stressful. Consider the reaction a while back on this forum when I pointed out that a certain bitch was overreaching in a photo… you’d have thought I criticized a revered religious theology rather than commenting on the obvious. The comment ended a relationship :rolleyes:

I think mentors have to be mindful that there will come a time when they need to step back a bit and let those they’ve mentored step up into the limelight and shine. It’s a process that healthy families go through… as children mature and go off in the world on their own. There is that adage, “a healthy family disintegrates in a orderly manner.” It’s true, true of biological families and true of the families we create in dogs. There comes a time when mentors have to take a step back and let their protégé stand or fall on their own. This shift should be the beginning of a new phase of the relationship... a phase of equals.

As an example…. let’s say that E2 was keeping Almé intact, which, by mutual consent, she is not, so this is strictly to illustrate a point. At this point in our relationship, E2 would agree to most any suggestion I would make about breeding Almé and given E2’s interest and knowledge of breeding to date, I think that would be appropriate. But E2 is a bright, capable, mature adult, more than able to observe and evaluate complex data. In a few short years, after attending shows, studying bloodlines and breeding combinations, etc., she will have developed an eye for a dog, and a knowledge of breeding combinations that appeal to her. So, while she may be willingly guided by me now, at some point in the future she might easily want to make her own breeding choices. And at that future point, I will need to step back and allow her the platform to stand on her own. At that point in time, ideally, I will be 100% supportive of her. Unfortunately, breeders /mentors sometimes have great difficulty seeing that the protégé has matured and is ready to stand as a equal. I think that fundamentally it is a problem of control grounded in a reluctance to cede control.

I can think of a breeder / co-owner and her protégé from years ago in Lhasa Apsos… after years of domination the protégé felt suffocated and became openly hostile to the breeder. What had once been a warm close personal friendship was destroyed because the breeder could not give up even a tiny modicum of control.

[doberdogsfd]

Control is an illusion.
We certainly have no control over another human nor, in my case do I ever endeavor to, how completely sad and boring.

I have been asked by a friend or two, " How do you control Bob? He can be so opinionated and difficult." My typical response is, " Why would I want to control the man???" I just do not get that type of thinking.

Point here is, I have a strong minded husband that allows me to be me, I give him the same ability to be who he is.

In every relationship, huband/wife, mentor/protege, there will be times when opinions won't be the same, choices will be made and directions taken that both will not agree on 100%.
What it comes down to is a matter of respect. To allowing them their space and to trust in them and their abilities.

As a mentor, you need to trust yourself, that the knowledge YOU have imparted to them, is the solid foundation needed to allow them to step forward on their own. Ever forward.......

Excellent topic Elaine, very thought provoking.
Cheryl

[Arthur]

In medicine we have internships and residency and become board certified or licensed. Then we are allowed to go out and make our own mistakes for which we will be held accountable.

To become an AKC judge there are minimum requirements. There are no minimum requirements to become a breeder. Every mentor is limited in their ability to pass on their knowledge. Some have limited knowledge to pass on, others have difficulty verbalizing what they know and others have forgotten more than their protige will ever know. One important aspect of learning is learning from your own mistakes. Making decisions on your own and evaluating the outcome is intrinsic to the process.

Mentors that do not allow their mentee to make mistakes are only handicaping the mentee's learning. I wonder if that may be the goal with some breeders.

[andyhilt27]

Interesting........Which brings me to the story of my beloved Eva. I purchased Eva against the advice of some. She wasn't the greatest breeding. The price was a bit high. Her topline has a bit of a roach to it at times. But she was probably the best bitch I could purchase free and clear with no binding contract. I have no obligation to show her. I can breed her to a Yorkie if I desire. Hmmm....a Yorkieman.

Most people in the dog show world have control issues. Is this a generalized prejudged comment? YES. Is it not true???? You know it is.
This applies to myself too. I can be a control freak. Yeah I am working on that.:D Is Elaine a control freak????? I would say so. Nothing wrong with that. It is important to be self aware.

My advice in dealing with a control freak:

Word selection.
Covert mind control.
Flattery always works too.

Here is an example.

Elaine you look lovely!!!! Arthur is a very lucky man. You are very intelligent. May I breed Eva to Warkant ? You are a very funny person. Is that a new perfume? You smell delicious! Sure you can have the second pick but it will cost you.

Stuff like that.

[Janice McGerr]

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[Elaine]

Interesting........Which brings me to the story of my beloved Eva. I purchased Eva against the advice of some. She wasn't the greatest breeding. The price was a bit high. Her topline has a bit of a roach to it at times. But she was probably the best bitch I could purchase free and clear with no binding contract. I have no obligation to show her. I can breed her to a Yorkie if I desire. Hmmm....a Yorkieman.

Most people in the dog show world have control issues. Is this a generalized prejudged comment? YES. Is it not true???? You know it is.
This applies to myself too. I can be a control freak. Yeah I am working on that.:D Is Elaine a control freak????? I would say so. Nothing wrong with that. It is important to be self aware.

My advice in dealing with a control freak:

Word selection.
Covert mind control.
Flattery always works too.

Here is an example.

Elaine you look lovely!!!! Arthur is a very lucky man. You are very intelligent. May I breed Eva to Warkant ? You are a very funny person. Is that a new perfume? You smell delicious! Sure you can have the second pick but it will cost you.

Stuff like that.

Bless you Andy, you always make me laugh :D ... can't imagine what we'd do without you around here. :) Sure, you can do whatever you like... I'm easy... except that we'll need health testing and a few other things first.

[andyhilt27]

Ok my serious take on control in terms of breeders is this:

Think about why the breeder is controlling. Often this is warranted. They are protecting their names. If the breeding is crap then it is their burden.

Do whatever they want for the first breeding. Don't burn a bridge. You will have a disagreement with everyone at some point. This situation will arise again and you could be on the other side of it. Does this make any sense?

Be flexible and be careful with your word selection. With the right wording you can get anyone to do what you want. Believe me on this one, I lead UAW members daily. They always want to play a game. I always win. ALWAYS!!! :D

Do not take their control as a personal attack.

[Janice McGerr]

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[Janice McGerr]

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[Spartan]

Yes they were being way to controlling. Here is what I know anyone can claim they are protecting their kennel, if the dogs are registered under a different kennel name it reflects on that kennel more than that of the stud dogs kennel. In the thread Where are we going? we dabated why it seems to be a sin to own a purebred dog. Well I will tell you this kind of thing is why folks stay away.

JMO

Bob

[Kissntell]

Unfortunately, I think egos get involved.

I also think that deals start to turn for one individual's favor and then relationships are ruiened.

[dobesign]

I personally feel that people are only offended by control when they feel they have none in any given situation. Remember, it takes TWO to empower a control freak. For those of us that have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL (such as myself speaking ONLY for myself) I welcome the steadying 10 foot pole that Elaine Greenwood smacks me with!!!! It's comforting to know that someone's got my back, even if it's only a big stick. NOOOOO!!! I'm kidding. It's truly hard to feel secure in the doberman world. There's sooo many people willing to play competitive psych games, or do quasi-social fence fighting that it's easy to feel demoted, EVEN when you have kickass dogs and bitches. It's difficult to know WHO to trust, and for how long. When you lose, lots of folks are your friends, but when you win, you get moved to the forefront of the Fecal List. Part of being ready to spread your proverbial wings from under the Mentor Shadow, is demonstrating that we have the mental Chutzpah to deal with everyone around us. I find that is the very REASON we seek a mentor to begin with....so that we feel we have a place to belong. Control? Not worried about anyone else's. Just mine...over me. Oh, and over Moose too, because she's a horrible, incorrigible teenage PUNK!!!! Tungsten is an angel (maybe methane is the source of angel flight), and Bah...well Bah doesn't EVEN play the control game, unless she WANTS ME TO DO SOMETHING FOR HER!!!!:eek:

[Jan]

I hear you Brenna! There isn't a day that goes by that I don't get the "talk to the paw"!
Well, control, basically it's the insecure breeder trying to contol their world as they have tried to create it. The breeder who pyrimids, instead of consentrating on a program.
A secure breeder has every intention of teaching the goals of a sound form and function dog, an insecure breeder has no other intention but to promote who they are and keep the individual from learning what form and function is, or even that form and function are the same thing!
A secure breeder has no need to control what one does with a dog in the breeding arena, they should be able to insert opinions on what works well with their pedigree and allow the owners to decide on their own, with the advantage of knowledge.
The problem is, how rare it is that a mentor actually imparts what is a sound and functional dog, more often it's what I have is it, not reality based at all.
Then you have the breeders who can't figure out who to keep, so they control everything so they can decide later what to do, and that usually ends up in a mess.
Then you have the many breeders who intentionally miss lead a bitch owner, only to cause havoc when the litter is born, very common.
It's not an easy place for a new person, so many dishonesties, and the handlers are in for the money, not the dog, so it's hard all around for any new person to get by the so many pitfalls. The attitude is, the less informed the better. Their are some bright lights out there, so it's not all dim!
Jan

[Betty]

Well said, Jan. How sad, but true. It seems controlling breeders are threatened by the thought of others suceeding. Instead of rejoicing in the idea of others making significant contributions to the breed, they reject it. What a shame. If knowledge is power, it is better to keep everyone in the dark!! There are some breeders out there that actually care about real issues. Count yourself lucky if you find one.

Betty

[Elaine]

My computer has been going whacky lately… up until yesterday we thought it was the Windows XP operating system.. the Dell guy in India told me the computer’s operating system would have to be re-installed… it got to be a bit of a mess, at one point I thought I’d lost all my photos and word documents from the past 5 years or so… :eek: :( but the Local Computer Geek was here yesterday, he says it’s probably spy ware and it can be fixed. :) He took the hard drive… he thinks it’s all salvageable … he will have it back today. Before leaving he reconnected an old hard drive… so I have internet access, at least for now. Gotta tell you, I had no idea how dependant I’d become on my connection to the internet… being without was a bit like being disconnected from oxygen. :(

About this issue… this is a tough topic. When people’s goals and agendas shift, and parties loose their original connection to a common goal and purpose, the shift can generate decades of rancor and bad feeling. When people in dogs split it’s like a divorce, with all the emotion and bad feelings. In my opinion it is never worth loosing a good friendship over a dog dispute (unless it involves abuse, which is rare). But sometimes these disputes highlight other flaws in relationships... and things are simply not salvageable. How to proceed is always an individual’s choice and it always gets back to respecting each other… without respect, no relationship will survive.

Given the clashing egos and agendas of the people involved in dogs, I am sure that many of you have wondered why the heck anyone would ever want to breed and show. Objectively, it is a huge fuss about nothing, and yet for some people it is their whole world. The legitimate goal of producing substance and quality is lost in the din of chaos created by the flavor of the month hyped dog, especially when the dogs are pimped by handlers making a profit from the sale of the offspring of the dog. True merit and quality become irrelevant. Heck, who even remembers the great breeders like Tom Horner and Raymond Oppenheimer (breeders who truly changed the face to their breed for the better). Horner and Oppenheimer understood structure and movement and were devoted to producing the best possible dog, not the best possible show record… and there is a huge difference. Horner’s and Oppenheimer’s accomplishments rested on merit over generations, not some phony-baloney hype, political connections, games and bullshit promotions of rather average dogs, who all fall by the way side in a generation or less.

Andy has a thread here on DSNN about why people breed. To be blunt, some people (especially in breeds that don’t require expensive docks and crops) are probably breeding to make money. For others, I think ego is a huge motivation. Some people define themselves but what they do in dogs. We can all think of people who’s focus in life is totally related to dogs... some of these people become rather bizarre over time, withdrawing from a well–rounded emotionally healthy life into some freakish little world of manipulation and control games. So often I’ve thought of posting back to Andy, “People breed because they want to rule the world and crush the will of those who dare oppose them. ” It’s a joke, but not much of one.

If you own a female dog with an intact reproductive system and allow her to produce a litter you are a breeder. There is nothing special about the process. The clouds to not part, the sky does not open up, God does not reach down from the heavens and bestow any special gifts (except possibly a pooper scooper). You do not morph into anything special as the bitch is whelping a litter. You are a breeder with the same identical insights, judgment, wisdom as you had the moment before the litter was whelped.

[andyhilt27]

Andy has a thread here on DSNN about why people breed. To be blunt, some people (especially in breeds that don’t require expensive docks and crops) are probably breeding to make money. For others, I think ego is a huge motivation. Some people define themselves but what they do in dogs. We can all think of people who’s focus in life is totally related to dogs... some of these people become rather bizarre over time, withdrawing from a well–rounded emotionally healthy life into some freakish little world of manipulation and control games. So often I’ve thought of posting back to Andy, “People breed because they want to rule the world and crush the will of those who dare oppose them. ” It’s a joke, but not much of one.

Interesting take on the motives behind breeding Elaine. The thread evolved from a conversation I had with you. Oddly enough controlling egos hadn't crossed my mind at that point. I was more focused on the many heartbreaks that comes with breeding. With those many possible heartbreacks I was searching for a common positive factor that keeps people going. It seems that the "failure" success ratio is why out of balance.

I have often termed breeding as a genetic lottery. Here comes this ugly word again: Control....You have very limited control when it comes to this gamble. Your input in selecting a mating pair will certainly have a influence. But influence and control sure as hell are not synonymous. I believe that the human factor in the breeding equation has been given too much credit in terms of success.

[Kissntell]

I remember Vic Monteleon saying that in the dog world people were one day friends, the next enemies, and then friends again, that it went in that full circle.

Vic knew a lot and was quite respected.

However, I have seen enemies develop, and then watched the pedigrees of those opposing forces never cross onto one another again. If they did, it was because someone else did the breeding that was not involved in the original dispute.

The dog show world is one of the most challenging, competitive in many facets, I have yet seen. Its also an exclusive club which does not welcome too many in. But the animal rights people welcome in all.

[Betty]

The dog show world is one of the most challenging, competitive in many facets, I have yet seen. Its also an exclusive club which does not welcome too many in. But the animal rights people welcome in all.

Good point...

Betty

[Elaine]

I believe that the human factor in the breeding equation has been given too much credit in terms of success.
I agree with your thought here, many of today’s breeders are really "one hit wonders" capitalizing on the fluke success of a given animal. If you study breeders who actually made a positive impact on their breed over generations (like Horner and Oppenheimer) you will see that their success was the reflection of a thorough understanding of structure and movement combined with the knowledge that you go forward in each next generation with the outstanding virtues of the previous generation… and that breeding is a multi generational process. These men were not the "used car salesmen- sell you anything - promote anything- carnival hucksters" we see today... but rather, they had a deep commitment to producing outstanding quality that improved with each generation. What we have today are people essentially saying, " I can put it with a top handler so it will finish (under my buddies) in some sort of style" or “my bitch is a champion (or well bred) and I want the experience of a litter, so I will breed her to a top dog or the dog of a well connected individual.” They tend to get average to mediocre litters … and in a generation or so they disappear from the scene. This is especially true when people chose breeding combinations based upon a dog's show records or advertisements, which explains why breeders tend to go off course rather regularly.

[mosso]

I think speaking of the transition in the 'mentoring' relationship assumes it is a mentoring relationship :)

I see breeders who call themselves mentors, but really are just using the resources of the puppy/dog buyer. These relationships usually go south in short order. :(

But a good mentor is naturally able to 'let go' I think. I've seen several of these. (they're usually a pleasure to be around to boot!) Basically they are good teachers, and good teachers are not a dime a dozen. :)

Stir