AKC / Eukanuba National Championship Dec. 13th and 14th

[Elaine]

The AKC ? Eukanuba National Championship is this weekend, December 13th and 14th.


Here is a link to the judging panels and other info on the shows.
http://www.akc.org/invitational/2008/index.cfm?text_event_number=2008277101


Not sure how many dogs from the East Coast are going all the way to San Diego, but it sounds like a lot of fun. The judging line up for Dobes is Clay Coady (Breed) to Sheila Dinardo (Group) to Lou Auslander (BIS).

Thought it might be fun to make some predictions.

With respect to how far a Dobe will go, I haven’t a clue what Lou will do in BIS (he may like one of the Sporting dogs, maybe even the Lab). In the Working Group, Sheila will do exactly as she pleases. Obviously Reigny will not be in the entry because Tony and Sheila own Reigny. I suspect Sheila is gonna love a really well-conditioned, well-developed male with great hams, overall heavy bone and good substance. IF a Dobe fitting that description makes it to the Group, it will get a good look from Sheila (but then, so will a Boxer along those lines). The word on the street is that Michelle Santana will win under Clay.

:)

[Elaine]

We hear that a class bitch, De Lex Luthor Flashdance, N Diaz/M Diaz won the breed yesterday and today. This bitch was on the Florida circuit last year... I think even Carissa showed her in the classes. Here is a link to info and a photo of her on the Lex Luthor Kennel Website. http://www.lexluthorkennel.com/en/pag/hembras.html and her photo http://www.lexluthorkennel.com.ar/images/1.JPG

A dog from Hawaii went BOS to her on Thursday and Andy's special The Captain went BOS to her today. As you can imagine, there is quite a buzz ringside.

[Lindsay]

Thanks for posting. Where about do I go to find the entries and results??

Lindsay

[Kissntell]

The show is in Long Beach which is about 130 miles North of San Diego.

I had entered on Thursday today but I got too sick to go. So my entry is absent. I heard that the vendors and such were really quite the thing. I also wanted to have others really see Macy and get some opinions.

The classes started at 8:00 A.M. That would have made a drive starting from my house at 4:00 A.M. Too sick too sorry!

Keep us posted on who wins and such.

[Elaine]

I don't know if the results are online yet. We have friends at the show and on the judging panel... which makes it tricky to say much of anything... you have to do a lot of "reading between the lines." It’s fair to observe that there is a difference between the FCI Dobe standard and the AKC Dobe standard… and possibly judges should be required to demonstrate that they know the differences. But then, that's the risk of showing dogs... it's a gamble... seems even more so with each passing day.

[doberdogsfd]

The bitch is lovely.....I am sure someone will have something to say about her being from Argentina. Whatever, I have always liked her.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

Would be interesting to see the entry... to see who was there and how they showed on the day. I don't recall ever seeing her in person. Judging from the photo, can't say she is my ideal Doberman by an stretch.



Briefly… and with just this rough comparison of two partial silhouettes for illustration, that I put together in about 2 seconds. http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/comparison.jpg

I like a clean underline of the neck and fullness from the throat latch down to in front of the elbow. I like a neck that flows smoothly into the back, one that connects smoothly at the withers, well back, indicating a good layback of shoulder. If you were to drop a plumb line from the upper tip of the scapula to the ground on an animal with good shoulder layback, you should be hitting the back of the elbow.

The dog to the left is almost ewe necked. A plumb line from the upper tip of the scapula looks like it would fall almost in front of the leg, indicating a very upright scapula… also, the upper arm lacks good return. The connection at the withers is high, abrupt and not at all desirable. The underline of the neck, from throat latch to in front of the elbow is very displeasing. The forechest is not full, rather the sternabrae protrudes prominently… which might be someone’s idea of "good" forechest… to me it is a variation of pigeon breast, it is not functional and should not be considered even remotely desirable. In my opinion, this is an animal that would not do well standing or moving on it's own. It would have to be pulled together by a skilled handler to make an acceptable picture for an AKC judge (one who was competently judging to our AKC standard). I think many of us have better examples of good fronts, that are probably laying right in front of us, especially if we have dogs going back to Eddie or Thunder.

[doberdogsfd]

Ya got me on the ewe neck part, I agree.
I still like the bitch......you know me pretty well Elaine and know what I like, so go figure.
I can tolerate a curvy, angled bitch better then a dog.....she kind of falls into that for me. I like a very standard, square dog like Vaako and Flex.

So..I guess that is why there is chocolate and vanilla! LOL! :D

Doesn't the photo of the red girlie remind everyone of a bad New Year's Eve Party??? Ok...I am a little wound up tonight! :eek:

Later....Cheryl

[Elaine]

Doesn't the photo of the red girlie remind everyone of a bad New Year's Eve Party??? Ok...I am a little wound up tonight! :eek:

Later....Cheryl

:D:D:D:D:D Boy do I agree with you here. I used a version of Adobe Photoshop… which I have used for a few years now (without ever reading a manual :o). I know there is the “wand” for removing parts of a photo. I have used the feature on photos of the dogs or horses over the years, but I don't think you'll ever see an example of my handy work. For me, the problem with the wand feature is that it breaks background colors up into units that sometimes include the subject I want to retain, so if I try to pull something from a background (which is just about never, ask Janice how I feel about this :eek: ) I use a more rudimentary way of doing so. My method leaves stray bits of color (and background) … producing that New Years Eve Party look. It’s safe to say that “graphic artist” will not be a future career path for me.

[Elaine]

So..I guess that is why there is chocolate and vanilla! LOL! :D

Later....Cheryl

I agree about different opinions... all of which are of value. :) About the bitch, this is only my opinion. If we all had the same opinion we could close the store now and go home. There’d be no need to bother to go to a show. We could post photos on the internet and all agree on which dog/horse / chicken/ goldfish was best. Hey, I may be on to something here :D

The judge on the day chose the bitch, we were not there and did not see the competition. Maybe all the other dogs in the ring that day were having a bad day. Maybe the footing was off. Maybe the noise or lighting in the building was bad. Maybe the judge forgot he was judging to the AKC standard. I was not there and do not know. The bitch is pretty, but so was Classic Touch (much prettier actually)... she had a very similar shoulder assembly, similar length of body, similar loin connection, similar rear assembly, and she is spayed. In fact, rather than discuss this bitch, we could use Classic Touch and some of my dogs as examples (because it won’t piss me off to talk about them). So, in addition to the front assembly, the rear angulation is out of balance with the front. There is too much second thigh, too much bend of stifle and the hock is too long. A handler may be able to make that a pretty picture in the ring, but it is not correct, most especially it is not correct to our AKC Breed Standard.

I believe that form follows function. We need to care about structure because it directly relates to the function of the animal. A correctly built animal can do what it was bred to do more efficiently and for a longer period of time.

We have enough land here to observe on a daily basis how form impacts function. An over angulated animal tires easily. From my observations over the past years, I would say that the correctly balanced, correctly angulated Doberman (e.g. Titan) is markedly superior in terms of a working dogs ability to work all day. More on point, even a moderately angulated dog (e.g., Brentano) can come a close second to a correctly angulated dog, but an over-angulated out-of-balance dog (e.g. Classic Touch) tires very soon and is simply not efficient in work. That is not to say that Classic Touch could not have finished, that is not to say that she is not beautiful (she is beautiful)… but she was not correct for our breed and she would have needed a skilled handler to pull all of her together. Though it was tempting to put her out with a handler to finish her, maybe to chase a record for Brentina’s puppies, we ultimately had to decide what we’d be contributing to the gene pool. As a breeder, it is not in my interest to perpetuate CT’s type of balance and overall structure, regardless of how pretty she is or how much I loved the bitch. As breeders we need to look both at the generation in front of us… and the generations in front of them.:)

[Lili]

I have to say, I am thoroughly enjoying reading this thread. To get a technical illustrated idea of our standard is great. I very much appreciate what you are saying Elaine and even a novice could see exactly what you are pointing out. I don't think anyone could argue or would want to argue any of the points you have made. It is definitely true that a well put together and not over angulated animal can easily move all day long. I love to watch Brentano gait around the yard. He looks as though he can go for hours, no problem. All of us have watched those over angulated rears moving and it is painful to me. Keep going with these lessons, they are very much appreciated. And anyone else who can show pictures and describe what they see honestly please post.

Thank you so much

Lili

[Elaine]

Thanks. :)

I think that for breeders, a dialogue about structure and function is important. Discussing an animal in the context of form and function helps us clarify what we like and why. The dialogue itself gives us tools to analyze what we think we like and why. It’s not that there are “rights” and “wrongs”… it’s more about why … sort of like, “How is this exquisite machine put together, and given that, could it be better? That’s basically what a breeder should be asking, “could it be better?” For me, the answer is always "yes." The challenge is to figure out how.

[Lou's mom]

As an end user, I enjoy reading Elaines comments and insight into what it takes to make a functional Doberman.

I've lived with some very nice dogs, including a Thunder son, so having a 6yo shelter rescue and a 1yo foster living w/my almost 5yo T-grandbaby is a real eye-opener. The 6yo is built like a Rottie in dober clothing, and her movement is nothing like my boys. [not that there's anything wrong w/a Rottie build, if one is indeed a Rottie ;)] Besides being overweight (and stubbornly keeping her weight on), Bella tires when Will is just getting warmed up, but she holds her side of the bed down just as well.

The foster is built like a Kelpie, again in Dober clothing. Her rear is straight as a stick, no forechest whatsoever, and her shoulders are 2" below her hips. She is a sweet little cuddlebug (whom I hope will get well berry berry soon so she can find a forever home) whom I could not in good conscience call a 'purebred' Doberman. Good thing I'm just the foster, eh?

Will is a pet quality Thunder gbaby, quite bitchy looking, rehomed service dog. Despite a 4.5/6 heart murmur and losing his littermate to cardio in Sept he still very much enjoys looooong walks in the woods. [To the point of extending his morning walk yesterday by 15min of side expeditions while I was trying to get to work]. Last week as a special treat for him I took him to a dog-friendly cafe so he could meet some new humans. After letting out his harness (mountains put muscle on a boy!) he had quite a good time, eliciting comments like "I have a GSD with coloring just like that" and "is he really a Doberman, with those ears?" {No, he's a Weimie that got cooked too long :rolleyes:}.

The point of above ramble: a well-built, well-bred Doberman is obvious in movement and presence, whether pick of the litter aiming at BIS/BOB or pet-quality couch potato. The opposite is also quite true. Reading the posts about where the non-breeder DPCA poohbahs are trying to take the breed is disheartening. This 'end user' heartily supports owner-breeder-handlers, and these discussions about where the breed is going are critical.

[doberdogsfd]

Elaine has a great eye, has taught me a ton of stuff and I agree with what she is saying.....no arguements from this end.
It is great to be able to discuss and learn from all points of veiws and this is exactyl why I like DSNN.....instead of being attacked for a differing opinion, we are able to review and discuss it and gain insight into what others think and learn from them.

Good stuff!
Cheryl

[Elaine]

De Lex Luthor Flashdance won the Breed. Haven't gotten the Group results. Was on the phone with a Working Group judge friend from the West coast who was saying that BIS would either be Taffy's Giant or the Pointer... but a different Giant won the breed, and it doesn't look like Taffy was even there, she did not get Breed, BOS or an award of merit... and that is hard to believe for the #1 dog in the country. Hmmm. The plot thickens. :) I would think Bill has a good shot under Gladstone for the Herding Group. but maybe there's a nice GSD too.

So far the BIS line up is:

Sporting ~ CH Cookieland Seasyde Hollyberry - Pointer who is All Breed #2 dog in the country

Hounds ~ CH Jaraluv Ouija ~ Scottish Deerhound who is All Breed #8 in the country

Toy ~ CH CilleineMasquerade ~ Brussels Griffon who is All Breed #6 dog in the country

Non Sporting ~ CH Randenn Tristar Affirmation ~ Standard Poodle who is All Breed #3 dog in the country

[Elaine]

Well, the Pointer ~ CH Cookieland Seasyde Hollyberry~ went BIS. Congratulations!

... and Bill's Corgi won the Herding Group... Congrats!

Sheila put up an ALaskan Malamute for the Working Group CH SILVERICE'S DANCING IN THE DARK (the Dobe did not get a piece of it, it was all fuzzy dogs, the Al Mal, Akita, Newf and Tibetan Mastiff)

and Terriers was won by a Sealyham ~ CH EFBE'S MERCI POUR LE POIVRE


and maybe I should go buy a lotery ticket... except that the Pointer was not to hard to figure... nor was The Corgi, or the Poodle or the Deerhound, in fact the Malamute and the Sealy were the only surprises. :)