inducing a bitch

[andyhilt27]

I will of course have this discussion with our vet but I would like some thoughts on this.

If the breeding with Tabitha takes we are looking at a Mar. 9th due date. If the ultrasound reveals conditions that might produce a large puppy should Tabitha be induced early?

Ultimately we want what is best for both Tabitha and her pups. I'd rather not risk her with a C-section. I also don't want premature pups.

[Elaine]

Welcome to the hideous world of Dog Breeders. :( Canine Reproduction is not offered as a Veterinary specialty, in contrast to humans, equines, bovines, etc. There is no such thing as a residency trained Canine Reproduction expert.

More on point, the American Veterinary Medical Association seems to be actively antagonistic towards canine breeders. If your vet is your only source of guidance, with respect to choices you will have to make, you’re pretty much screwed. Your very best bet is to find a breeder who is also a vet… but they are rare. A good breeder in your area will likely have more valuable experience for you than any vet.

Theoretically, giving birth a bit early is not as risky as whelping late… but there are exceptions. Don’t know about your breed specifically, but in many breeds (and even with some specific bitches on our Doberman breed) a planned C-Section is simply part of what the breeder must prepare for.

As for inducing labor early before the fetal head to so large it will not pass thought the birth canal, in order to avoid a c-section… I think that would be extraordinarily ill-advised. For example, you would not know if the puppies respiratory system was fully up and functioning. Not sure that could be properly assessed by ultra sound. Again, there is no such thing as a canine reproduction specialty in veterinary medicine. As most of us know, many vets are really very poor at reading ultra sounds.. I can not think of even one I could recommend to guide you about inducing labor.

Arthur would know this better (and he is asleep, I will ask later), but I would guess that in humans, equines etc, they can induce early with relatively good results because:

1. The human or equine medical profession actually offers multiple medical specialties that relate to human reproduction, so by virtue of their education, training and licensing, medical professionals basically know what the heck they’re doing. It is shocking how medically wrong vets can be about canine breeding, not the insemination so much as everything from that point on;

2. Human gestation is 9 months, equines is 11 months… there is a bit of room to play with… in contrast canine gestation is 58-63 days… each day is more critical to the development of the puppy, so a day or two early may have more of an impact on the undeveloped puppy than, say in humans or equines.

Others here are breeders and may have a few thoughts.

[Elaine]

You should know that inducing her may increase the risk of c-section

Caveat… I can’t say that this 100% applies to dogs and labor is multifactorial, we know a lot but there are still things we don’t know. It’s a bit more complex than just a shot of prostaglandin to soften the cervix and some oxytocin to cause contractions. Arthur’s program does not even use prostaglandins to induce. Also, we have to remember that human medicine offers sophisticated neonatal care, it offers ways to assess fetal lung maturity, it offers educated trained support staff, the ability to install umbilical artery catheter, etc., … all sorts of medical options for premature infants. Canine medicine for the most part does not offer this, and what it does offer would cost many times more than a c-section.

Induction increases risk for needing a C-Section by 30-40 percent. The induction you do will very likely cause her to need a c-section.

About reading ultrasounds to determine fetal size, it is not 100% by any means. Arthur was saying that it is not unheard of that a medical doctor will determine on ultra sound that the baby is ... say 4000 grams... at, say, 48 weeks .. which = impending macrosomia. Intuition tells you to induce or c-section, but they find that when they do, they often discover that the ultra sound is wrong, the baby is normal size. In Arthur's program they much prefer to let the woman go into labor, when they induce they increase the risk of c-section

[Kissntell]

My grandmother said that when "an apple's ripe it will fall."

I agree with you Elaine on vets and reproductive medicine. I have seen horse vets know so much more re birthing than dog vets. I think this is because of the financial impact of a baby horse vs a puppy.

It is very difficult even in my town large as it is to find a good vet. I have a good internal medicine guy but that's it.

I would say 12 hours of non productive labor would be an indicator of possible problems. I would also say that pushing with no results would need to be evaluated. That is in dogs, and has been my experience.

[Elaine]

one more point... we are family here on DSNN... Andy, if Arthur and I can help you in any way... call... ANYTIME :)

[andyhilt27]

.I would say 12 hours of non productive labor would be an indicator of possible problems. I would also say that pushing with no results would need to be evaluated. That is in dogs, and has been my experience.

That was the whole problem with Tabitha's first litter. She was not in labor for an extended amount of time. There were no signs to indicate that she was in distress Then part of the sack came out. She opened the sack and there was a blue paw. My first reaction was to pull. I didn't want to damage her so we went to the vet a short distance away. It was too late. We tried eveything to save that little guy.

We will closely monitor her. Not that we didn't last time.

Thanks for your insight.

Elaine, thank you for your technical response. It was what I was wanting to hear and not what I was wanting to hear all at the same time.:D

Next question: Does a previous c-section increase the chances of a c-section for her next litter?

[andyhilt27]

one more point... we are family here on DSNN... Andy, if Arthur and I can help you in any way... call... ANYTIME :)


I could use an interest free loan of about $475,000.00. I fear if I call you for that you may laugh and hang up.:D

Seriously.....Thank you.

[Elaine]

I could use an interest free loan of about $475,000.00. I fear if I call you for that you may laugh and hang up.:D

Seriously.....Thank you.


Your fears are well grounded.. but you can always try... our number is 1-555-We-R- Broke.

[Elaine]

Next question: Does a previous c-section increase the chances of a c-section for her next litter?

I think it depends on the previous c-section and the reason for it. The answer is probably yes, but it is not set in stone.

Used to be that in human medicine “once a c-section; always a c-section.” But it really depends on the incision, on where the incision is on the uterus. You should ask the vet who did your c-section what they think the chances are of a vaginal delivery. They may not have a clue (becasue they have no Residency training in reproduction), but they may have an opinion. One concern is that the old incision site might rupture. If it does and the bitch does not have immediate access to medical intervention, she may die.

About gently massaging a puppy out of the bitch canal, Arthur and I were talking about a colleague of his, someone he greatly admires, who has never - in something like 30 years of practice- had to do a c-section to deliver the second twin (which, btw is common, in fact some hospitals will not allow a woman to deliver twins vaginally, they insist on a c-section). Anyway, Arthur’s mentor is aggressive about getting the other twin out… basically grabbing hold and massaging it out right away. I have experienced that with gentle, slow and steady pressure you can get the puppy out. Btw, I am very careful to avoid sticking my hands up inside the bitch… and I always wear sterile gloves... and change them frequently

[Elaine]

About reading ultrasounds to determine fetal size, it is not 100% by any means. Arthur was saying that it is not unheard of that a medical doctor will determine on ultra sound that the baby is ... say 4000 grams... at, say, 48 weeks .. which = impending macrosomia. Intuition tells you to induce or c-section, but they find that when they do, they often discover that the ultra sound is wrong, the baby is normal size. In Arthur's program they much prefer to let the woman go into labor, when they induce they increase the risk of c-section

Better way to explain, let’s say that the vet thinks the ultra sound shows that the puppy is very large… that doesn’t mean it is large. Even in human medicine, with skilled residency trained OBGYNs - who read thousands and thousands of ultra sounds - you can get it wrong. No vet has the training or experience of an OBGYN, in part because of the body of knowledge available and in even larger part because of the sheer numbers of procedures an OBGYN does. There is no veterinary medical practice that does even remotely the numbers of deliveries of an OBGYN. Across the board, experienced medical professionals can get it wrong about fetal size on ultra sound. An ultrasound that says the puppy is large may or may not be accurate.

[mosso]

Andy -

why not find English Bulldog breeders in your area? How do they know when it is time to schedule the c-section? (I realize you asked about inducing, but presumably if you induce, you're hoping puppy is ready to come out period :) ) What vets do they use successfully?

Another option is to consult via phone with a reproductive vet. (one that comes to mind is Dr. Hutchinson in Ohio at Northview Animal Clinic, but others may offer phone consults)

I didn't see mentioned whether or not progesterone testing was done, but if it was, especially the LH surge, that should give you a more "sure" due date.

eh?
Stir

[andyhilt27]

Thanks for the great info stir.

Tabitha is plump right now but I don't know if she is pregnant. I will contact our vet early this week. Our concern is the health of Tabitha and her puppies. So I guess we have to find a balance.