Ringside Politics

[Elaine]

Was talking last night to someone about the Florida circuit, about some bizarre recent wins and what all else is going on down there. Rumors are flying that the politics ringside are far more entertaining than anything going on in the ring. If Florida is an indication of things to come, we’re in for an interesting year. I’d love to be able to grab a chair, something nice to drink and just sit like a fly on the wall … taking it all in.

When we envisioned DSNN I had hopes we could find a way to discuss dog shows from an accurate mature perspective. I had visions of dialogues that went beyond, “So-and-so won the Breed today.” After all, it doesn’t take long to grasp what goes on in the ring at dog shows. Handlers push and promote dogs and breeding lines they control (and benefit from) much like car salesmen push Honda over Ford. It’s not a "bad thing” ... it’s more like "an obvious thing" ... simply what we’ve observed over the past twenty years or so. The specifics vary from breed to breed. In Dobes, Gwen has her line, the Whites push theirs, Diego has his, Esteban pushes what he has to offer… and so on. Some do it with restraint and a bit of class, others march right in to the ring and hit the judge over the head with their version of what the judge should have done.

We have judges trading assignments for wins, judges who are former handlers putting up handlers or the breeding of handlers… the games in the ring are endless. The system is so flawed on so many levels it’s amazing any of us “little folks” spend a nickel to participate. We little folk are, for the most part, completely shut out of the process, i.e. we are never even in consideration in the first place, the wins are for the professional handlers to divvy up and we get the scraps left over.

At the very least, I feel that I have paid for the right to openly discuss what I’ve seen over the years, so has anyone who’s ever shown a dog. After all, we little people create the points for the these "professionals” to capitalize on.

I have always thought that the dynamics of dogs shows are worth discussing… with the idea that openly talking about what actually goes on might be a step towards making things better. Silly concept isn't it? Didn’t take long to connect to this fundamental truth, you simply can not discuss what is really going on at dog shows… doing so would start World War IV. Warts and all, I actually like showing dogs and have no intention of offending anyone. Rather, I’d like to not have to pretend that dogs shows are about “the best dog winning.” They are really about the “best package” winning and that package includes someone with a check book and someone with the iron will to nag, cajole or flat out harass judges into using their dogs.

In some circumstances judges are required to produce a record (a written critique) of why they did what they did. I have read these for Bull Terrier Specialties and other shows over the years. These critiques do make it clear whether or not the judge has a clue about dogs. It’s kind of hard for the judge to write, “I put her up because I want to judge in Argentina or Japan; I put her up because the handler’s spouse called me the week before; or, I put her up because so and so was ring side glaring at me.” If the goal is to judge dogs, maybe requiring written critiques from judges would be a step in a positive direction.

[Sonquest]

Elaine, I agree with what you are saying and would like to add that in a "perfect world" there should be 3 judges in each ring, each scoring the dog in several areas, such as, likeness to the standard, condition, movement, attitude. :eek::eek: The dog with the highest total wins!!! Oh and one more thing, judges not allowed to converse among themselves while judging.
Would be a bit harder for anyone to get all 3 judges in their corner. :p:p Would take a little extra time to tally the scores but I, for one, would be willing to wait!! ;)
And while were dreaming, maybe we could get comfortable ringside seating and a cold/hot beverage and refreshment stand at each ring. :D:D

Tina

[Lou's mom]

As an end-user of the conformation product (ie: not an owner/breeder/handler, but someone who supports same by taking 3rd pick for personal use in agility, SAR, etc.), the written critique would be immensely valuable in guiding me towards the phenotype appropriate for the work/play.

I'm always happy to share what bits I've picked up over the years w/newbie dober owners, and having documented objective evaluations would go a long way towards guiding those into the right temperment & lines for folks looking for the appropriate doberman for their life.

Have an aquaintance who thought she wanted a 'driven' doberman for the agility ring, so she bought an american bred out of schutzhund lines. She's been in dogs since she was a child, is an agility judge, and finally admits that what she got was what she articulated, but not what she wanted. The dober is so sharp that she now has only 1 other k9 friend, after having put holes in the 10 or so she once had (including my girl Nyx, RIP). If there had been written evaluations of the bitch & her line, those of us who wondered how that would work out would've had something solid to show her.

My 2c = worth exactly what ya paid for it. :p

[Kissntell]

I'm sort of hoping that the result of this recession will be a change in dog shows as we knew them.

It is foolish to spend money in a shaky economy even for those that have it.

Which makes me wonder if or not I wish to spend money when I don't have a chance. I'm not into wasting money. Who is?

But will that change shows? Will more owner handlers compete? I think so; but, who wants to go to the expense and not even have a chance?

Show entries are not $28.00 to $30.00. Then you add that to 4 days. Add on to that expenses of being there. Anymore, all shows charge another $10.00 per day just to park a car. In the old old days exhibitors did not have to pay to park but that too has changed.

By the way....Does anyone know what happend to Darlene Young and Texas Galvaston? They were showing years ago and just disappeared. I've asked around and no one knows. Are these a result of people just getting tired of the scene? I don't know; but I notice they arn't around anymore. Just don't know why.

[Elaine]

Here’s another perspective on why some of us no longer wish to spend a nickel getting the opinions of morons, many of whom have never owned or bred a Doberman. “What the heck do I need with So-and-so’s opinion of my dogs? He/she never bred a good dog and wouldn't know one if it bit them in the @ss. ”

The great judges have either passed on or they are showing wear and tear of years. The newer judges are the people who started in dogs about the time I did. To be blunt, most of them don’t know which end of the dog to feed. They judge based upon what Dog News says or some handler tells them to do. They couldn’t accurately assess a dog to save their lives and they have no clue why certain structural failings should be heavily penalized and why some should be highly valued.

And, if things weren't bad enough, we also have self appointed "icons" in our own breed with the temerity to take it upon themselves to change our breed standard. People who’s breeding programs produce under-angulated, light-boned, leggy dogs have a real "bitch" with the SA dogs angles. Rather than recognizing the virtues that the SA dogs have to offer - when combined with our pedigrees - these people decided to eradicate the SA influence. Essentially, to protect their breeding programs (market share) these people decided to impose their breeding programs (faults and all) on our breed as a whole. They looked at the SA bred dogs in the ring that were beating them and made a list of their competitors faults, and then sent out idiot cards to judges that essentially changed the Breed Standard, giving their breeding programs an edge in the ring. Basically, they can't beat the SA phenotype so they attempt to legislate it out of competitiveness The idiot cards say that over sized dogs or a gay tail are to be considered serious faults. The list is as faulty for what it includes as for what it ignored. To be sure, we should be breeding a medium sized dog, but an oversized Doberman can to the job the breed was meant to do. An undersized Doberman can not. Oversized was made a serious fault, undersized was not even mentioned on the idiot cards. These oracles of ignorance also didn’t bother to include things like lack of under jaw, poor shoulders and lack of heavy bone in their list. The mere fact that these morons are essentially re-writing our breed standard in a clumsy transparent attempt to elevate their own breeding programs is destructive to our breed. So, we have internal and external pressures on showing... all of which weigh heavily against participating in the process.

[Kissntell]

So really then the question arises:

Why can't people who know the breed, and what they want of the breed, breed to their own standard as they see it? The standard is well written out. But everybody has a different interpertation. That's what makes me nervous.

Isn't this what Louis Doberman did? He had a vision of a dog in mind and went for that.

It seems that no one is stopping anyone from doing that. It is just that the term "backyard" breeder comes to play. But, I've seen some beautiful well planned dogs at horse barns in my younger days.

Why does Champion via AKC weigh with so much importance?

Obedience/working titles mean nothing?

I am sorry to say, I know of many who do this just for business. I say, that no one person breeds a litter without at least looking to recop their costs of showing etc. No one in their right mind throws money away.

What's happening is that some people are trying to "capture" the market with their style or bloodlines. That I have seen. What a way to be the only ones with the dogs. Its called monopoly.

So monopoly is thus played out in the show rings. Soon no one else will be showing but them, taking turns on who's to win this day.

[Elaine]

I am sorry to say, I know of many who do this just for business. I say, that no one person breeds a litter without at least looking to recop their costs of showing etc. No one in their right mind throws money away.
For the breeders we know, breeding is absolutely not about making a profit, or even breaking even. For us this is a passion… our goal is to breed perfection, whether it is in equines or canines. Specifically, in the horses our goal was to produce an Olympic Team horse, i.e., a horse that excels at Show Jumping or Dressage (we have no interest in trying to produce an FEI level Eventer). The odds of a small breeder like us doing so are astronomically high, yet we may have managed this with Commander, the second stallion we sold to England. Nice as Commander is, we did not remotely make a profit on his sale, nor do we make a profit on the dogs. When you factor in the cost of the breedings, the vet bills, the tail docks and ear crops, the show expenses etc, we don’t even remotely come close to breaking even. I don't know any breeder who does.

[Kissntell]

"When you factor in the cost of the breedings, the vet bills, the tail docks and ear crops, the show expenses etc, we don’t even remotely come close to breaking even. I don't know any breeder who does."

Exactually my point. No one in their right mind would throw away money unless there were some was to get it back. So this hobby of ours would be mush if it were a direct bleed without some recourse. No one would do it because the "high" of winning would just be a direct money bleed.

I've been too small of a breeder to even give sense to the money game. But how about those breeders who are doing 3 plus litters a year?

I've been into dogs for many years and I have bred a total of 3 litters in those years. Not so with many others.

I could name off many I know that are considered "reputable" which do otherwise. Their "small" years are 3 litters. Hey... I know one reputable breeder who had 3 litters at one time at her home. So you tell me....not in any offense, but what's up with that?

Look at the dog show entries and the DOB on these puppies out of the "good stock." Have you noticed that that wonderful bitch is being bred back to back? That's from reputable stock breeders. (Same bitch different top stud.)

I am a burned out crisppy critter in the dog world that's for sure because I have heard it all and seen it all. To me many of these people are B.S. in the hide.

And...so it goes with the distrubition of the "show puppies." There's underhanded stuff going on there big time too. Really...I could go on and on but I better stop. I could be stepping on toes here.

But at one time I was naieve. Now, I'm not.

[doberdogsfd]

Perhaps the person that made the purchase of a " driven" or what is actually a Low Drive, Moderate Drive, or High Drive dog, should have understood what she was actually asking for.
Not understanding what these terms actually mean could get one into trouble and it appears it did in that case. A dog that is too much for someone being the result.
The variable is how was this dog socialized, handled and trained. As well as what behavioral signs were starting that perhaps didn't need an Agility coach but a certified and knowledgeable Behaviorist to modify and correct what the owner/handler needed to before the dog became so dog aggressive.
The blanket statement that this bitch was dog aggressive because she was from a Shutzhund line and “driven" is absurd. I am sure this will twist some folks' knickers into a knot, but as others have said before...JMO.

My thoughts such as they are regarding the ring politics and this idea we make huge profit on breeding. Yep, I am sure someone is making some money off of breeding 3 litters at a shot. Would I do 3 litters at the same time? Clearly NOT, but that is me. The cost of doing a litter properly is high and making money from it is the farthest thing from my mind as it is from Elaine's. The ever present pursuit of the elusive "perfection" is the reason. In dogs and horses!

Here is the deal, the ring is a professional ring, it is what it is. I admire the folks that step in to owner handle their Dobies, I really do. What it comes down to for me is, if that makes you happy keep at it.
What makes me happy is seeing my dog out there with Diego. So there you have it, the reason there is chocolate and vanilla.

It isn't a breed for everyone and dog showing isn't for everyone. If you want to finish your dog and owner handle, perhaps a ring that isn't so aggressive, isn't a professionally focused ring is a better choice.
Again, if ya like to do it, do it! But if it gets you so spooled up when you loose to handler and makes you crazy, is it worth it?

Cheryl

[Jan]

Well, it's very difficult to say what one's knowledge is, when that knowledge has been a highly guarded secret for so many years with many of the so called high profile breeders. It's reality is guarded, lied about, and denied constantly to protect the ability to continue these practices. I can only speak from the breed I know the practices have been in place, but I would find it hard to believe that many other breeds, if not most all aren't to different. They all play in the same venue.

I will try to speak of the breeding aspect that effects showing. Both were brought up here, both are effecting each other.

Here we go.

Here's a surprising reality - a high profile stud dog, ( high profile doesn't mean just well known) would earn $300,000.00 in his career. ( got that from several ole boyars, one that did it) This would include stud fees, puppy sales and sales of stud fee puppies. Other breeds may not be as high, I don't know, and in today's economy that may fall short too. But a few years ago, that was the figure to expect. It's easy to understand the games and goings on in the ring when one understands this. No matter if the dog was actually good or poor doesn't matter, the high profile economy does. That includes arranging all the wins one can, arranging all the wins on pups you can, pulling out every stopper to create the "got to breed to him profile". Putting pups in guaranteed win homes (they control assignments, people that control show series, are judges, handlers etc.) That in turn starts the got to buy one of his pups, a large international sale expo happens, etc., etc.The ole boyars are constantly trying to grasp this event, sometimes successfully.

Next reality - Many of these high profile ole boy breeders do not pay for handling, and if they do it is at a surprisingly lighter fee. There's your price my price and their freebee. Some judges who breed, some vets, usually get their dogs shown for free. Not all, by any means, but a select ole boyar crowd never pays. We simply have our fees increased to take care of that. AND you have to be on dumn dumn pills if you think that the handler isn't making sure that, that free, or lightly paying dog is finished fast as a flash. There are also trades on stud fees for finishing, but that usually goes with a dog that will have overseas sale value, or the right machinery is in place for a higher selling litter.

Third reality- The ole boyars that I have known, do their own tails, no fee of course, and they pay far less than we do for crops. Again, your price, their price. I guess one could chalk that up to years of service discount. :)

Fourth reality - Many ole boyars have a practice in place to show bitches for free, finish them, and take their fees out of the first litter. ( Now you know the free thing makes them finish her fast, and the hoopla of her accomplishments brings a higher price to pups) Again it's us, the ones who won't play the games that pay the day to day freight. One high profile and respected breeder does this to an art form. He finishes a bitch, gets a breed or two and then comes in to take what he wants from every litter she has in her lifetime, leaving the bitch owner with what's left. The ultimate pyramid syndrome! He creates the hoopla and comes in to a cropped and docked litter, he didn't whelp or raise, feed or anything, and walks off with one, two, three, whatever he deems a profit maker. All the while justifying it all cause he created the value with what he did.
There are many similar things to this etc.

There are so many other things I could touch on, but I see no point. The brokering fees, and so on, and so much more. The breeder handlers keeping their sales up. Oh ya, the time I witnessed a high profile breeder, handler offering a commision on the sales of his litter by his stud dog, and that he guaranteed he'd get handling fees to her as well. Oh ya, and the 300 k dog I mentioned above was highly due to a 500 dollar kick back to handlers steering their bitch owners to breed to him. The list is large. It is a game of their economy, kid yourselves not. You will excell if you are part of what they are working at that time.

Yes, there are breeders out there not only making a living, but a rather high living. Simply speaking, higher volumns and cut costs make for their profit.

For those of us who won't play in their environment, every litter cost us, even if you take out showing expenses as part of it. And a very large part of the issues with honest showing of your dogs are because of the direct effect of the breeding and stud dog economics of this venue. Add this to the other things that go on, and geez.

Spelling this out is a big no no, people are suppose to run and pay, buy and continue the madness, they're suppose to never learn, and if they do, just to leave it and let them work the people that have no idea, and if you don't leave your suppose to follow suit and become part of the game.
This spelling it out will piss a lot off. Informing anyone that they want to get the dollars from is never taken well.

On a good note there are breeders out there sliding by the sidelines, working at a sound good dog and stepping out of the way of the madness. It's a difficult path to weave yourself and dog through all this, possible, yes, but difficult. It will be a huge event to amend the way our shows are conducted to start to correct the many issues that exist.

On just showing, going in that ring, in a better world, owner handling would be an ideal, but in some breeds, it's not really possible at this time. Unless your a pro that still calls themselves an owner handler.

Jan

[Kissntell]

Jan...I totally back you 100%!

I too have seen/heard these "deals."

The dog world has been exposed! Thank You for putting it in better words then my own.

Now what can be done about it?

If you're not in the chosen group, you might as well just forget it. That's what's wrong with this "reputable" breeder stuff that I constantly talk about. Did they coin this "reputable" phrase to cover themselves?

The sad thing is that I love this breed so much that I find it hard to quit and let go. Breedings are done all the time for the making of money and not for the better of the dog. Looks in the show ring are first and foremost. Why do you think we have so much more cardio right now then any other time before?

Long ago I just heard about cardio happening in scaracity. But now it is common place. Just on Jan 1, 09 a top twenty bitch collapsed 4 months before age 5. She only produced one puppy and the owners are so upset that they got no puppies from her. Are they breeding for the health of the dogs?

What really is "reputable?"

Once you have had the sadness of loss of your own heart to a cardio, you may feel different. I was absolutely taken, shocked, and I will never forget what I had to watch. And, to this day, of all the dogs I have ever owned in my life, that was the very best dog I have ever had.

When it happened, I cursed all those above in the pedigree who passed this on to this wonderful bitch. I say that those who have the big names know full well what they are doing. They know what each dog had or did in the pedigree. They stive to keep it secret. That is at least until some time has passed when that dog is now 3 or 4 generations back.

If they tell too soon, or get out of their denial, they will lose money. No one will want to be part of that gene pool.

Reputable Breeders?

Well...I'm stepping on toes again. But that is the advantage of being a "nobody."

[Elaine]

Great post Jan... I suspect that most of us can fill in the blanks with names and details. There is a dog show system that “Joe Average-Breeder” is simply not a part of, because our small agenda to breed good dogs is largely irrelevant to the marketing protocol of promoting a stud dog that a breeder / handler controls. It’s business for these folks… it’s their mortgage payment.




A small point about breeding back to back, breeding a healthy bitch back-to-back is medically preferable to skipping a cycle. That is not to suggest that all bitches should be bred back-to-back, and I am not advocating that high volume breeders breed back-to- back-to-back, but for a healthy young bitch, breeding back to back is the actually medically sounder than breeding, waiting a cycle and then breeding again.

That said, we are really big advocates of looking at the whole pedigree, most especially the bottom line. You may get a flyer from obscurity, but if you want a valuable breeding animal you will value a strong bottom line. Also, look to the breath of your pedigree (the littermates). Many breeders focus on the depth (the sire and dam)… look to the littermates, they are a better indication of what a given animal will produce.. That is why a breeding animal that comes from a great litter is of extremely high value, even if he/she may have a fault or two.

About DCM, it is in the breed not in a breeding line. There is no way to determine that a dog will not transmit DCM and there is no way for a breeder to accurately claim that they have “a DCM free pedigree.” Any suggestion otherwise is baloney and hype. I am so sick of the “Holter your dog" stuff inserted in the context of stud dog ads and puppy sales ads. The Holter test data is misleading in the context of what a dog will not transmit. Holtering you dog tells you if you need to medicate your dog and it may give you in indication that he could pass it on… it will not tell you that he will not pass it on. As of January 2009, we have no way to identify a dog that will not transmit DCM and we do not know why some offspring of and/or littermates of DCM dogs do NOT develop DCM. It is very likely that some epigenetic influence inhibits the expression and transmission of DCM. We need to understand that… we need the medical science to understand DCM and most especially the epigenetic influences. We do not need Holter results in the context of a stud dog ad or a puppy sales ad because they are misleading.

[doberdogsfd]

Let me start by saying Jan I think your examples of the dark side of pure bred dogs is right on the money. Let me also say that to many of us this is a hobby or sport that we enjoy. For others it is a business and in business there is a drive for profit which will lead some astray. Some of these folks with less than stellar integrity do take advantage of good people. Taking the pick from litter for life in trade for building hype and showing the dog for free is crazy in my opinion, but I have to ask why make the deal? These less than honest people could not do all of this if the owners did not agree to it in the first place. When you make a deal with the Devil you have to expect a certain amount of discomfort. I choose not to be involved with anyone who see dogs a commodity. I also refuse to give power to those want to "control" everything. When I first got involved in showing dogs I was told by many people "the rules" and "how things are". I scratched my head and went why? Who says it has to be this way? I was told that I had to do whatever the handler said and there was no chance of putting my wants and needs on the table. Interestingly enough I ran into some that thought I would play and tried to ignore what I needed. So I had one more conversation about my needs and when they were not met I moved on.

I see it this way; I am paying for a service which means I am entitled to a certain amount of input. If I am to have no input then I should not have to pay. I have had deals offered to me that I have refused because they made no sense. I think that someone made the "rules" up and buffaloed folks into thinking there is no other way. Then I finally found someone who puts my needs in the mix and we have dialog. My business arrangement with whomever I have one with is between me and them. As an example when Cheryl and I purchased Vaako from Elaine and Arthur they said we are asking $XX for Vaako, I did not say how much did you sell the other dogs for? Did you give a better price to a friend of yours? I made a deal with Elaine and Arthur for Vaako that is between us and them. If someone else paid less good for them. When I contract a handler I do not ask what he/she charges others or if they are showing "fritzy's" dog for free, that is not my business, the only thing that concerns me is what I am paying. That is not to say that if the person I am dealing with has integrity issues or treats others badly I will continue my relationship with them, there are certain things I do not want to be associated with.

I was once told the sport of pure bred dogs in a dirty business. I think it can be, I am not naive, but I think I can control how dirty I get and what I am willing to do to achieve my goals. I follow my moral compass and do not stray far from the path. I will not sell my soul so to speak to finish a dog. I do believe handlers perform a service they should be paid for, if they give it to you for free or barter for something else it is on the individual to agree to what they are comfortable with. I do not think there is some secret ruling class that meets in a smoke filled room to decide the fate of all who enter the sport. I do think if the so called "somebodies" are given the power they seek by all of us so called "nobodies" they win. However WE have to give them the power. Cheryl and I do not play that game or give them power.

To me it is like high school. There were the "cool" kids who were cool because they said they were and others agreed and gave them "power" by putting them on a pedestal. There were the "uncool" or "nerds" who were that because someone said they were and everyone agreed. Then there was everyone else that fit neither group. I think had all the "uncool" and In-betweens decided enough was enough the "cool" kids would have been hosed. I played sports in high school but did not like being labeled a jock or the antics of the cool crowd. Mostly I did not like being told who to talk to or who to invite to my house for a party. If I liked someone I liked them. So sometimes I was ridiculed for hanging out with the nerds or whatever. I had quite a bit of fun hanging with some of the "uncool". I had a group of friends that were great. Just like in this sport I have met the self anointed and walk away shaking my head. But I have also made wonderful friends and met some outstanding people. Cheryl and I have made great friends that are supportive and honest. We take the good with the bad.

What I find humorous is the amount of time that some of these so-called "somebodies" or powerful people in dogs spend trying to prove they are powerful or trying to damage others. Often to no effect. It reminds of a high school story involving my niece. She was a cheerleader but hated it because of the stereo-type and the clicki-ness. The in crowd was throwing a party that was the "party of the year", my niece wanted to bring her best friend who was a "nerd". She was told no. She said she would anyway. They told her not to come to the party and to decide if she wanted to be with them or her friend. My niece made the choice to be with her friend. There were many kids who did not get invited to the bash. It so happened a friend with some connections to the music business had called and asked if I wanted 5 tickets to a sold out concert with back stage passes. I took the tickets and took my niece and 2 of her friends to a "Boy Band" concert. They had a great time. I was in agony!!!:D On Monday at school the cool kids were telling my niece how great the party was and what she missed. They just smiled. Then someone asked what did you guys do this weekend go to the movies? My niece and her friends said no we went to the concert and pulled out the back stage passes and pictures with the band. All of the sudden no one cared about the party anymore but rather the concert.

My point is that these "POWERFUL SOMEBODIES" thought they were ruining these girls weekend. All the planning and time spent acting silly came back to bite them because it had the opposite effect. Had I not known about the issue my niece was having I would have passed on the tickets. The power they thought they had was gone; they took nothing away from my niece. It is the same in our sport, I have heard people say I will do this and do that and they are nobody. At the end of the day there is someone out there that gets the fact that this is a business and will gladly accept our money to provide a service to us. It may not be the most popular one, but they will do a good job. Dogs will finish even if it takes longer. Unless the only goal we have is to become part of the ruling elite and win Westminster most of us can stay out of the dirt.

I think the folks that think in terms of who is "somebody" and who is "nobody" have issues they need to deal with. I think stories get passed about people that are not true because someone stereo-types them and tells a convincing story. We all needed to see for ourselves and judge each person based on the merits of our interactions with them.

Sorry for the long post,

Bob

[Lou's mom]

Perhaps the person that made the purchase of a " driven" or what is actually a Low Drive, Moderate Drive, or High Drive dog, should have understood what she was actually asking for.
Not understanding what these terms actually mean could get one into trouble and it appears it did in that case.

A dog that is too much for someone being the result.

The variable is how was this dog socialized, handled and trained. As well as what behavioral signs were starting that perhaps didn't need an Agility coach but a certified and knowledgeable Behaviorist to modify and correct what the owner/handler needed to before the dog became so dog aggressive.

The blanket statement that this bitch was dog aggressive because she was from a Shutzhund line and “driven" is absurd.

That's not what I was trying to say, my apologies for mis-stating the case.

This dog was part of my extended canine family for quite a while, and I think it was purely the incredibly high drive that got her & her 2legged mom to where they are now. A police k9 trainer offered to work w/the dober, which the owner ultimately decided not to follow up on.

[Jan]

Oh, Bob, you are so refreshing! I remember when I felt the same way, and in essence I still do. But I am fully aware of the realities in the showing venue. It is a mechanism set up for those aware to use it. It is the majority. The ethical issue is to use it or not.

It’s not an honesty, good, or bad thing. Sadly, akin to an insider/outsider thing. There is little honesty in the ring. It is set up to use if you know how too. This is a non- breed specific, and not individual based. But many individuals figure out how to make it even worse though.

The practice, I refer to as the indentured bitch, isn’t knowingly agreed upon by the owners. They get taken. They believe they are trading real showing to finishing expenses against a first litter. Unfortunately, what the contract holder does is take the value from the litter, continuing the payback from each litter. The contract holder has no use for less marketable pups. But that’s just one facet, one dark issue, that creates havoc in the ring. There are so many others.

If you are fortunate enough to have a handler that shields you from this, all the better for enjoyment sake, and I know you do.

But to really understand what actually happens, one has to be involved on an almost full time basis, be involved on a multiple breed venue and level, aware of reps and what they do, or what some do, be aware of, or there when the evening hours are setting up specific wins. It's like becoming aware of the ins and outs of the game, how it's played. And caliber of a dog no matter what breed isn't really an issue, it's more on how one seals a deal. The classes are no better, same stuff, same arrangements.

And no, there isn’t a handler alive that will tell you the truth, even if they are working to do the best for you. If they did that, it’s akin to killing their business. They just fight to get it done as best they can in your interest.

There is hope, you never know what will happen to force a mechanism to change.

Jan

[doberdogsfd]

Jan,

Thanks for the compliment. You are correct I do have a handler that does his best for Cheryl and me, and tries to shield us from much of the ugliness. I know that there is a dark under belly to showing and the sport of pure bred dogs. I know there are backroom deals. I also know there are a few honest folks and we all must rally to them so the tide will change. The sad truth is that this is not unique to dog showing, it seems to have become common place today. It is true in the corporate world as well. I just refuse delivery on it. I refuse to get too deep. There will always be deals and things done that are not ethical. There will be wins that are not deserved. The way to change it is for folks to wake up and say enough is enough. I am sure you have heard the following quote "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Burke also said "We must all obey the great law of change. It is the most powerful law of nature". I believe change comes when enough people get fed up and decide to do something.

As for my other post it was really more aimed at those who pretend to be powerful and for no reason try and hurt others. These folks talk a good game and have many fooled into thinking they must bow and scrape and "stay on their good side" or bad things will happen. I am not sure what they will actually do, may be take away someone's birthday, which would be awful, at least for me, I really like my Birthday!!!:D At the end of the day I enjoy showing, it is a hobby but it is not my life. My self esteem is not tied to how well my dog does. I have other hobbies too, and they are as rewarding and much less expensive. I love my dogs, they are my family first and much like me have a job, showing. I think some get fooled into these contracts because they are too deep and invest too much in trying to live some dream of being on the inside. Or being of the greats. I do not aspire to such things. I am happy that everyday when I walk in the house I get greeted like Caesar returning from Gaul by two of the sweetest creatures God ever created. I get jumped on and licked. They love me even when I had a bad day or failed at something. That is good enough. The rest is all icing on the cake.

I think the power would go away if folks took dog showing less seriously. After all we are not curing some horrible plague; there are no lives on the line. And most importantly the dogs don't really care. Vaako never came home from a weekend where he lost and pouted, he met his girls licked them and acted like a boy, jumped on them and took off hoping they would chase him.

I heard what you were saying, don't get the wrong idea. I think the issue is there are folks trying to make a living and some do it with ethics while still others do not. Some have to bend their value system to survive and then take a shower because they need to wash the dirt off. The unethical will always to dupe someone. They are like predators that can smell the weaker members of the herd and prey on them. However even a lion knows not to attack an elephant.

Bob

ps. I am really enjoying our dialog Jan, I hope to meet you one day.

[Elaine]

Love this discussion and the points being raised.

About Jan’s post #10 above… and comments about the marketing of any given stud dog / breeding line (and how that marketing is pushed by handlers breeders and effectively dominates the market place to the exclusion of other bloodlines etc) … that is even more true in Warmblood breeding and the Verbands in Germany. Each Verband "pimps "(for want of a better word) a stallion or stallion line. Classic examples are Weltmeyer, Donnerhall and Rubenstein… and now the great sire Sandro Hit. First we have Verband Breeding Directors rave about the stallion, making him the high light of his stallion approvals, licensing and/or testing, then they push breeders to use the stallion, then they award Premiums to the stallion's foals, then his offspring are chosen for the Elite Auctions… then the stallion is awarded some accolade like Stallion of the Year. Is he the best stallion? Often the answer is no, he is simply a "nice enough" stallion who is connected to some powerful marketing machinery.

After a decade or so the breeders are scrambling to correct his influences, because the hype was just that "hype" ... and he was used too much. And the owners or the Verbands have made a tidy profit. No private breeder can even remotely compete with the marketing model.

To bring this back to dogs, and some really obvious examples, you have Gwen pimping Dagger (and the Dagger offspring she can control) to all her clients, yet the fancy largely ignores Janice McGerr’s lovely dog Uno. You have Jim White largely ignoring Rayden, and now pimping the repeat breeding in Secret Desire. This dynamic also explains why the fancy rushed to Eddie, but largely ignored Jan’s outstanding Eddie son Rowdy. We hear that handlers got a $500 kick back for sending breeders to Eddie. If we could all do that, we could all build records... it's just that the breed ultimately suffers, if only from the lack of diversity.

[abowman]

I have been new to the dog show scene and only really been in it about a year. My husband and I purchased our doberman girl, Lexi, for what she was breed for, protection. We wanted a dog to protect me, our home and family, which she does nicely. We were not looking for a show dog and we did not know anything about showing dogs. Lexi just happended to be show quality and we had to agree to not spay her and train her for showing, which we did.

When we started to show her, we really did not know what we were getting into. We looked into what it was about and what the purpose of showing was for. It did not even cross into our minds that this was a political "cool-kids" game until the second show we entered her in. That was when we did research into the handlers that were there.

I love to show my girl and I know that she is a very good representation of the breed standard. However, if I really want her finished I know that I will have to spend money on a professional handler because that is the reality of it.

It is frustrating to see some of these dogs be put-up or even finished because the judge knows the handler, knows the pedigree, or some other thing like that. How can a "newbe" compete with that?

We have started looking at other kennel clubs like the International All Breed Canine Association (IABCA) and UKC because the judges either have to provide a written critique or professional handlers are not allowed.

Sure I would love it if Lexi was AKC pointed and finished, but it does not make us love her any less than we do now. Will it help to sell puppies? Maybe, but who knows.

Until the sport of showing gets back to its roots, it will be very difficult for a "newbe" or "outsider" get into this. It is a tough thing to sit and watch a dog be placed ahead of yours knowing that your dog is better.

Opinions from a newbe!
Angela

[Elaine2]

From one newbie to another Angela, I couldn't have put it better.

E2

[Elaine]

There is a saying, if you can survive the first five years in the dogs show game, you’re hooked for life. Many people don’t make it past the first five shows. :(

Without question people have perception of what showing is about… and that perception is usually pretty naïve… sort of a Walt Disney version of life. I suspect that people new to dogs think that showing is as open and straight forward as the dogs themselves. Trust me, it ain’t.

On its face conformation shows are supposed to be about identifying the best breeding animals. In a perfect world the judge should be competent to accurately determine which virtues are most valuable to the given breed and which faults are the most difficult to eliminate… and place the entry accordingly. Doesn’t take long to see what is really going on in the ring… and it can be very discouraging. Even a novice can ask, “How can that be a Top Winning Dog if it can’t move correctly? For follows function.., that animals faults should not be passed to the next generation. The judging makes no sense.” :mad:

Most every criticism I’ve ever heard about dogs shows has at least a kernel of truth… it is an odd little game we play. It is not a perfect process of selection by any means… yet it is appealing none-the-less. There is a rhythm to shows, most especially to a given show circuit. There is a buzz on the show grounds that is almost addictive… almost intoxicating. Can’t explain it, but it’s palpable… and you either love it our you don’t.

Here are my tips for enjoying the sport of showing dogs:

RULE #1: Tattoo this to your forehead, read it to yourself in the mirror every morning… never, ever, ever spend a nickel more showing dogs than you can afford to flush down the toilet. If it costs too much, STOP!!! Wait until your finances are such that it is easy to show, win or loose. You will never enjoy showing if there is financial pressure to win. Never!!!.

Rule #2: Keep things in perspective. Even if you go BIS, very few will notice and fewer still will care. Most everyone has gone home by the time they do BIS, few even stay to watch. And, the next day it all starts again anyway. Keep things in perspective. You are never as “on top” as you think you are and never as low either. Keep a steady eye on the horizon and your long term goals.

Rule #3: Be flexible (not sure exactly how this relates to dogs ... it’s just generally a good idea.) :)

Rule #4 . Be gracious… win or loose, be gracious. Most of us have lots of experience “not winning.” We get pretty good at being a gracious loser. Remember to be a gracious winner as well.

Rule #5: People will remember a catty remark forever… and they will remember a compliment too. There is almost always something positive to say about a fellow exhibitors dog… be nice, be kind, be thoughtful… unless you have really had enough, and then all bets are off.

Rule #6: Do not focus solely on winning and loosing. You will never win as much as you’d like.

Rule #7: Approach dog shows as a social event. Seek out and network with like-minded individuals in your breed and in other breeds. Be social, stay and support friends in the Group… go to dinner… make it about the process and sharing the fellowship and camaraderie of dog people. Whatever the experience, it is much better shared with friends and loved ones.

[Athy]

In this thread, we had a discussion about what a breeder is. Some pals of mine reminded me of this white paper - do you all think it's still on target today?

http://www.dpca.org/BreederPA.html

Athy

[Rauschund]

I agree whole heartedly with the posts about the politics....but it is what we make it. There are things we can do. I am a nobody, and have pointed my dogs in the US, and finished my own dogs in Canada.
First off, have you bred some champions? If so, have you ever considered being a judge? There are a couple of good examples of this...1. Nancy Barrett...she has bred dobes for years, and now is a judge. I may not like what she does, but she picks what she believes is a correct dobe, no matter who likes it. Another is Cherie Holmes....she is now a judge, is not political, and really knows what a dobe should be. These are the kind of judges we should enter under, make them popular judges.
Are you a member of your local kennel club? They choose the judging panel at the shows, you can have a say in it.
You can show your own dogs, or if not capable, there are alot of junior handlers out there dying for the chance to show. The more we are in number, the more we have to be reckoned with.
Pick and choose your judges wisely....I am determined to finish Hoss myself in the States. It will take me 3 times as long, but I will do it! this weekend I am shoiwng in Erie, PA...why...it is twice as far for me as the shows in Queensbury, NY...but the judges are fair. We have Brad Dunn on Sunday, who has pointed me over Diego and Esteban in Bainbridge...why?,,,,because he couldn't deny the dog. Maybe I am being over-optomistic, but the only way we can change things is to be active in all the venues of showing...just my honest opinion.....of course Hoss may be 8 years old bythe time Ifinish him, LOL, but I am really going to try!

[Elaine2]

Well we are cheering you and Hoss on from here Carole Ann.
All the best in Erie this weekend. Keep us posted.
You made some very good points.
E2, Q&A

[Elaine]

I agree whole heartedly with the posts about the politics....but it is what we make it. There are things we can do. I am a nobody, and have pointed my dogs in the US, and finished my own dogs in Canada.
First off, have you bred some champions? If so, have you ever considered being a judge? There are a couple of good examples of this...1. Nancy Barrett...she has bred dobes for years, and now is a judge. I may not like what she does, but she picks what she believes is a correct dobe, no matter who likes it. Another is Cherie Holmes....she is now a judge, is not political, and really knows what a dobe should be. These are the kind of judges we should enter under, make them popular judges.
Are you a member of your local kennel club? They choose the judging panel at the shows, you can have a say in it.
You can show your own dogs, or if not capable, there are alot of junior handlers out there dying for the chance to show. The more we are in number, the more we have to be reckoned with.
Pick and choose your judges wisely....I am determined to finish Hoss myself in the States. It will take me 3 times as long, but I will do it! this weekend I am shoiwng in Erie, PA...why...it is twice as far for me as the shows in Queensbury, NY...but the judges are fair. We have Brad Dunn on Sunday, who has pointed me over Diego and Esteban in Bainbridge...why?,,,,because he couldn't deny the dog. Maybe I am being over-optomistic, but the only way we can change things is to be active in all the venues of showing...just my honest opinion.....of course Hoss may be 8 years old bythe time Ifinish him, LOL, but I am really going to try!

Enthusiastically applauding your goals… we're behind you 100%.:):):)

[Rauschund]

Our win pic from Hamburg just came. I have him stretched put too much in the rear making him look straight, but I have had worse pics! LOL! See, if I can do it...and yes...there were handlers there <G>, anybody can!
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/Rauschund/Hoss/hamburgWDBOS.jpg

[abowman]

Nice job Carole Ann! Keep them coming!

[Rauschund]

this is a pic of Hoss's sister Journi. She is being shown the same weekend as Hoss was, by Cheryl Cronan, a breeder owner handler. Cheryl shows for the owner, Lynn, because Lynn is deaf and has trouble in the ring.
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/Rauschund/Journi/journi_1-11-09_fitchberg1.jpg

[Athy]

Ohhhhh, I like her! Pretty, pretty girl!

Athy

[Elaine]

In this thread, we had a discussion about what a breeder is. Some pals of mine reminded me of this white paper - do you all think it's still on target today?

http://www.dpca.org/BreederPA.html

Athy

Seems to me that we should all take a look at this link... about once a week. :)

[dobesign]

Some people like to think they'll profit in the sport. It's much akin to the NBA. How many try to become superstars? How many really get the gazillion dollar paycheck? Then there are those of us that are into aesthetics: we like to appreciate something that is beautiful. Loving the dogs for WHO they are can fall into either category, but will most likely appear in the latre. I'm not a BREEDER. I breed when I anticipate not having a best friend much longer. Or when dear friends need that. I want the best dog...WHY? Because it isn't FAIR TO THE DOG to do anything else. Sure. 300,000 bucks. Great. Dies at 4 or 5, not fair. Lotsa hearts break over that. I'm not making a shot about any specific dog or line. I'm saying that there are much more stable ways to invest money, but investing like dogs is like investing in the current stock market. Showing dogs is not really about dogs anymore, but the faces on the other and of the lead. The judging isn't about standards, but rather about social elevation and money. I'll still show my dogs. I'll still win under some judges and not others. I do it because I love to spend time with my dogs. Personally, I feel that the best reward is seeing my dog make someone smile. Bah crawls into the lap of a blind kid in a wheelchair. Tungsten helps the young man with the walker carry his backpack. Muse...well Muse likes to pick up people's soda bottles for recycling. Whether they are finished with the soda or not is irrelevant. Which leads me to another quote I saw...

"Perhaps the person that made the purchase of a " driven" or what is actually a Low Drive, Moderate Drive, or High Drive dog, should have understood what she was actually asking for"

Lou's Mom had made a great statement. Someone had gotten the dog that they had ASKED FOR (articulated), but not the dog that they WANTED:eek:. Muse is a handful. I thank God that I had been into dobes for eons because any less and this bitch would have been too much for me. But I asked for a dog that I could show myself in the Northwest. I got a dog that not only shows HERSELF, but would probably place the entries, pack the van, then drive us there herself as well. She IS a bitch with a lot of drive, and NO I don't think that it's all Trotyl, as Bah is diametrically opposite attitudinally, but has the same sire. I have a handful, she makes me crazy, but I love her and she will probably be the best bitch I have ever owned. She is what I asked for, but not what I thought I would get.
Lastly, I would like to bring back the notion of balance. Breeders don't even ask whether you could handle/own a bitch like this. That could be a very dangerous thing in inexperienced hands. I know people who have littermates to my bitch, and they haven't the longevity or the metal to deal with the pup they have, and are utterly disappointed. This is a shame, because they are lovely, but a handful. People stand at ringside "Should we breed her to him or to him?", but they don't consider that the dogs will actually have to LIVE WITH someone. Yup, VERY PRETTY. So is a volcano at night. We need to be careful, is my point. There is a portion of soul in beauty, and we are so wrapped around the axle to produce the conformationally correct dog, that we throw a beautiful temperament out the window. Dobermans are multifunctional. There is NO REASON to say, "Oh he only shows" or "He does obedience" or "She's a therapy dog". We've almost forgotten what it is to say " I have a Doberman." and mean that ANYTHING is possible...:cool:

[Kissntell]

I can handle mine. The question that really lingers in my mind is will the new owners, should I someday breed her, be able to?

This bitch will never never make an obedience trial bitch. I know because I have titled, and done the high in trials, what it takes.

If I could ever end this sled dog stuff I'd be grateful. I have tried everything and have now resorted to: pulling results in going home and no walk.

When I first got this bitch I did all the socialization stuff. She is ok with people coming up, which is something you need to show. But one of the days, at the lake walk, where others go, when she was small, a Giant Schnauzer jumped up at her, scared her to death with a scream, and now its kill any dog near.

This idiot who owns that dog thinks he is the dog authority. I had to go to the park ranger about him and registar a complaint. But it doesn't matter. The initial reaction has now caused me to have a very dog aggressive bitch.

So now I have to arrive at shows way early and walk and walk till she settles in. The other show dogs just look at her without challenge. So I wish that we could do a show for the re-socialization every day. Also, people at dog shows are not scared of the breed and this helps.

But as to her puppies, should there be any, I have to be very careful because I could easily end up with a bunch of "bounce backs" who are now messed up. People say they want one thing, but their interpertation is so much different than what they are saying.

I guess I have a specimum of which is the very old type style of Doberman temperment.

P.S. Water Bottles are king as well as balls balls balls. I bet this entire litter is much the same.

[Lou's mom]

Seems to me that we should all take a look at this link... about once a week. :)

Excellent statement.

I've been very fortunate: my first dober came on a show contract from a local Dober club president, and while the extensive questioning felt almost like an interrogation, she took a chance on a loft-living retail wage slave and accepted me into her dober family 11 years ago. My next dobers came from someone on this forum, whom I met because of Lou's show contract, and we continue to be 'dog family'. I can't imagine it being any other way, yet myBella (and the shelters, AHA and rescue groups) prove otherwise. :(