Ear cropping...what should it cost?

[Arthur]

According to the DPCA Before You Breed web page, http://www.dpca.org/before.you.breed.html one should be prepared to pay $250 per puppy for ear cropping. I wonder where this number came from. Please tell me where in this country you are going to get a show crop for $250/dog.

Recently we’ve heard of vets charging $750+ per puppy for a crop (which is up from $450 about a year ago). I wonder how these vets justify the price increase. Now that the AVMA opposes ear cropping* I wonder if the vets who are performing ear cropping are gouging us.

Medicade controls the cost physicians can recoup for surgery, but there is no governing body that regulates what a vet can charge for a procedure.

Seems to me that veterinarians are shooting themselves in the foot (which I’d be more than happy to treat them for at a whole lot more than $750 per shot).

At a time when there is pressure from the AVMA and the general public to ban earcropping, vets are doubling their prices. I like the cropped look, but at some point we might want to say “enough” with these vets and save ourselves $4,000-$7,000 per litter.



*The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards. Ear Cropping and Tail Docking (Oversight: AWC; HOD 07/1999, EB revised 11/2008)

[Janice McGerr]

If it cost $750. a pup, I will have to find me another breed :mad:, that has natural up right ears and a tail that will not clear the coffee table. May be a Basenji. May be that number includes travel, hotel and time off work. Even if all that is part of the price I still would have to change breeds, or just not have anymore litters. :(

My first Dobermans was a natural ear, I can live with that, if I have to.

[dobesign]

Because it's soooo hard to find a vet that can show crop, we fly folks in to do it on the kitchen table with no equipment to monitor, or resuscitate, or deal with them if they crash. Further, if the crop sucks, who are you going to tell, since many of these vets aren't licensed to practice in the states or even countries they fly into....I had the ahhhh
Opportunity (because I can't say it was a pleasure to watch an underanesthetised puppy scream while the vet continued the crop explaining to the owner that the puppy was at the top end of the weight scale because the owner had waited too long...I was so mad I had to go home) to witness this shoddy work. If we are left with underground ear cropping or natural, I'll take natural. I won't risk the pup's lives...(in a real clinic with appropriate pain management and safety, it's hard enough)

[Elaine]

Obviously I agree with Arthur's post, he’s my husband and we share opinions and the experiences of our dogs. In addition to the price increase, there is an aspect of this that Arthur really didn't want to touch on, although we both agree it occurs. We have a concerns about the quality of the ear crop job itself. Some of the vets who do ear crops are, to say the very least “moody.” So, even when you use the “best ear croppers” it’s always been a bit of a gamble. They do a good job on one puppy and pretty much ruin the next three. At $450 per ear it was just too much of a gamble … but if they up that to $750 per puppy it really puts me over the edge. Honestly, I get a bit put off that these show croppers are all on the phone with each other and with third parties talking about the puppies they are cropping without the knowledge or consent of the client/ owner. It seems to me that doing so is a violation of the client’s privacy. There are stories that some of these vets intentionally ruin ears. If so, that is absolutely horrendous. If a veterinary medical professional is psychotic enough to call people saying that they will “destroy” so-and-so in dogs, are they emotionally stable enough to practice medicine? If a medical professional is willing to make such a threat, is it such a leap to believe that they will also intentionally ruin docks and crops? When a vet accidently or intentionally ruins an ear crop, there is really no recourse for the breeder except to go elsewhere. I have never had a vet say, “ I’m sorry I’ll fix that." I can understand a simple mistake (we're all human), but how many chances would you give someone who hurts your puppies either intentionally or accidently? There is nothing like the experience of standing ringside looking at a beautiful ear crop on another person's dog, a crop that is far superior to the crop on your dog… and asking “who did the crop?” and hearing back that it was the same vet that did your. One is a beautiful job; one looks like the vet used a can opener. When you add $750 per puppy and up into this crazy mix I think breeders are going to say “enough” with these vets.

Re Brenna's comments, we have vets in this area that actually want to learn to crop... they have clinics with state-of the art equipment (e.g. x-ray machines, ultra sound machines, monitors, etc.), they are licensed to dispense pain meds, they follow sterile procedure and have fully trained mature staff to assist them. It may take them a few times to perfect the job, and they might benefit from some experienced assistance, but far as I know, they are in the realm of about $250 per puppy. I know of a breeder that had tails done (beautiful job) at this vet's for about $20 per puppy... wonderful staff, very professional, no games or bs of any kind... great experience all around.

[Kissntell]

Gee this is scarey.

Long ago, I knew of a breeder who went to Mexico bought the drugs and did their own.

I haven't had a litter in a long time. But I do know that a certain breeder locally here use to go and help/stay at the vets and make sure the cut was to her liking. I think they drew with a pen on them how they both wanted them. I heard that she and the vet often "fought" it out. But she got the best crops from this vet compared to other's ones. I had that vet do mine and of course I couldn't stay, he wouldn't let me, and did not get as nice of a crop.

I don't know enough to draw on the ear how I want it. But I am smart enough to question why and such. I know what it should look like.

One time I took a single puppy I bought in for a crop and ended up with a "war" dog crop. That pretty much ended her show career. That's upsetting!

I know people with pit bulls around here crop themselves. So there must be something going on with access to drugs. But they sure don't have any special cut. They have a cut so the ears don't get ripped off in a fight.

[andyhilt27]

750 for a crop? That is insane. Could it be that this vet's crops are in vougue and they will charge higher for this reason? Insane I tell you!

wow....I am still amazed at this. I was just talking with my vet on friday about this very subject. He wanted to know who cropped Eva. I of course forgot the name. 750 for a crop....Crazy I tell you. I paid 150 for a c-section, I know there is no art to that but hey it is still a cut with meds.

[Arthur]

Andy,
That is exactly what I am talking about. Even the DPCA breeder's education committee thinks that ear cropping should be and can be obtained for $250/puppy. Surely the DPCA expects that you will be using a veterinarian who is licensed and uses adequate anesthesia.

It would be nice if the DPCA provided DPCA members with a list of vets by state who perform ear cropping and the price they charge. My list of things that the breeder's education committee needs to do is getting longer each day.

[andyhilt27]

This vet charging $750 per pup needs to realize this talent can be had elsewhere. I am all for paying a bit more for quality that is almost guranteed but this is ridiculous. Let's teach this vet what supply and demand is truly about by boycotting their services.

I am happy with Eva's crop. I would be happy to supply the name as soon as I remember it.:D

freaking $750 per pup.....blasphamy!!!!:mad:

[Elaine]

I saw this from you on another thread

... My place of employment has decided to lock the doors in July.:( My plans of purchasing land and building a home have been squashed for the time being.

such is life....
I don’t think any of us can predict what the future holds for this economy. It’s clear that we’ll all have to make adjustments… and prioritize. Arthur and I have cut back on showing... I think others have as well. I agree that it is odd for some vets to be increasing prices at a time when the client can least afford it. I can not see passing on a $750 to $1000 ear crop to the puppy buyer. The price is simply too far out of line, especially when the public pretty much wants to see an end to ear cropping all together. (It's as though some of these vets just can't help shooting themselves in the foot, one-way-or-the other. For vets who rely almost entirely on ear cropping, I suspect that in the near future the phrase "would you like fries with that?" will come in handy.) I think that across the board people are tightening their belts. We see this in both the small animal vets and the equines.

Our farm is in a rather active affluent equine community, we have many former Olympic riders here within a 10 mile radius… we have some of the top combined drivers in the world, we have some of the top eventers… we have some of the top Hunters… it is a seriously committed professional competitive equine community. Doesn’t take but a moment when speaking with people who make their living in the equine industry (i.e., the farriers, vets, feed dealers, suppliers, growers and trainers) to realize that the market - even in our community- is down dramatically. One of the very best farriers in the area is switching to another line of work because business is so off. Our best local hay grower is having trouble selling hay, and will grow less next year. Feed stores all have signs up that they have stopped giving credit. Vets see business way down, same with trainers. People are either doing things for themselves or doing without... and that is in the Southern Pines area, which is a huge affluent equine community.

And in all of this, ear cropping vets want to up their prices… are they nuts? Even more on point, how do these vets reimburse the breeder when they screw up the ears?

[andyhilt27]

I agree Elaine. Which brings me back to my plan to save the U.S. economy. The bailout lies in the consumers. We need immediate tax rebates on large purchases such as cars and homes. More homes and cars being sold boosts the economy all around.

Now if I were a mutimillionaire, I would still have a hard time paying $750 for a crop.

[Arthur]

Illinois Senator Terry Link has introduced a bill that will drastically cut the cost for ear cropping and docking to $0. You won't be allowed to do it.

Introduced 1/30/2009, by Sen. Terry Link

SYNOPSIS AS INTRODUCED:

510 ILCS 70/3.03

Amends the Humane Care for Animals Act. Limits the situations when a
person could dock an animal's tail or crop its ears without violating the
Act's prohibition against "animal torture". Establishes that the following
is not "animal torture": (i) tail docking performed by an Illinois licensed
veterinarian for a medical reason (now, just "tail docking") or (ii) ear
cropping performed by an Illinois licensed veterinarian for a medical reason
(now, just "ear cropping"). Effective immediately.

[Elaine]

Re: the cost of ear cropping I don't think that all who have cropped ears actually pay for their crops. I suspect that "things" are bartered back and forth for "payment." I believe that if we took a second look at show records we’d see a correlation between wins and services provided.

Just to clarify, the bill Arthur mentions above is an Illinois state bill. Wonder how long it will be before we see this nation wide? With the American Veterinary Medical Association and most of John Q. Public opposed to ear cropping, I think the writing is on the wall.

Arthur and I both used to say we’d not have Dobermans if we couldn’t crop or dock them… he still feels that way… I have softened quite a bit, in part because of Dobermans like Mary, who is not docked, and in part because I am so tired of fighting a nasty tidal wave with a tea cup. After what I’ve seen over the past 35-40 years of having cropped breeds, I simply can’t defend the ear croppers we know. Seems to me that we lost control of any solid ground to stand on in this issue years and years go.

Frankly, I think that the DPCA has no credibility on this issues anymore (if it ever did), by virtue of what our own leadership has done in the recent past. First, we elected DeHetre (who is purportedly an illegal ear cropper) as President of the DPCA, and then - after a successful fight to oppose SB1548 (a Californian state wide crop ban) - Helsdon - with the help of his friend McNealy (and Cyberdobes) outs DeHetre as an illegal cropper and then Helsdon dramatically resigns from the DPCA in a letter to all published on Cyberdobes. Looking back I think the entire fiasco eviscerated the DPCA’s credibility on ear cropping. Seems to me that alll one would have to do is reference Helsdon's resignation letter from Cyberdobes and we're screwed. In my opinion, the DPCA has squandered any opportunity to be an effective voice on this issue because of our own poor judgment and mismanagement of the issue.

Vets who’s sole practice is ear cropping need to see the writing on the wall. May not be a bad thing. I would guess that there will be a bit of a shift in ring politics if ear cropping is not allowed.

[andyhilt27]

So Illinois (and the rest of the tree huggers) thinks that cropping and docking is for cosmetic reasons?

Dogs in the wild never evolved floppy ears. Why is that? It affects the hearing, which is vital to a dog. Dobermans are a working breed and need to have their tails docked.

Why aren't these radicals going after hog farmers docking and notching ears. Nevermind cutting the hogs teeth at birth.....which is for nursing purposes.


Let's ban circumsizing newborn boys!!!! That is for cosmetic purposes. Oh one could claim personal hygene. BS!!!

Illinois is F***ed up. They have the stiffest gun control laws anywhere next to California. I am not a big gun fan but my Dobermans won't be able to protect my family as well with natural ears and tails so now I need an alarm system and a gun.

Obama for change!!! Be careful what change you wish for.

This is the worst Jan. in history for the DOW. There have been over 100,000 jobs lost this week alone. Let's bring all of the troops home! Yeah let's bring 'em home to no freaking jobs. Don't worry though we are on our way to full socialism (more like communism) so Uncle Sam will pay you to sit on your butt.

For all of the Obama supporters don't worry I would have plenty to gripe about if McCain were in office. Where is Ross Perot?

[doberdogsfd]

I can feel the winds beginning to blow and ruffle the feathers of quite a few......some more then others.
Sometimes a strong wind is what is needed to expose those who do not play with Honor and Integrity.


~Strength and Honor~

Cheryl

[Eve Auch]

I'm coming in a bit late because I haven't been checking things on my computer recently.

Regarding ear cropping, I pay $175 for my ear crops from Dr. Carl Pew in Orem UT. If I fly him into California, I pay for his air fare and he stays at the house with us. I know that he is licensed in UT and California and I believe other states as well, but can't vouch for that. If the weather is nice and litter not too large, I drive the puppies to his clinic in Utah. The price is the same either way. I believe that he crops at least 300 puppies a year and probably a good many more. He is a licensed judge for Dobermans and Bull Terriers. He also does all my reproductive work and is excellent. In fact he has his own storage facility for frozen semen.

I've been using Carl for about nine years and I have never gotten a bad crop from him. As he crops and stitches, I put the puppies ears up on the foam and check on the ones waking up. In his clinic in Utah I still put the puppies ears up though his staff checks on the puppies as they wake up. Of course, he never sees my puppies again because I do all the aftercare and I've never had a puppy whose ears I didn't get up.

Some of the recent ear crops are so long that (in my opinion) they are unsightly; they don't fit the head, the tips waver even when they are adults, and your eye is drawn away from the dog's expression. I'm sure if I asked Carl to do that kind of crop he would do it but he would think I had lost my mind.

I know that I would simply never pay $750 for an ear crop though I understand that some of the vets in Santa Rosa CA are near or at that number now. It's insane. Could it be that these vets realize that we breeders are desperate to find a good crop and price themselves accordingly? And what will happen to their businesses if and when ear cropping becomes extinct? I know I certainly wouldn't support them after they had screwed me over.

Eve

[Kissntell]

Thanks Eve!

I haven't needed to find a vet for ear crops in quite some time. That's because I haven't done any litters. But this is very good information to have. Because someday, I may need to find a good talented vet.

I agree some of the ears are way too long.

Right now Macy has decided to hold her right ear in the flop position so she's going back up in tape at 13 months. I remember having a male of which I taped for 18 months. I think they start habits, and they are hard to break, as to standing ears. The trick then becomes who's going to give up...not me!

[VeloAlison]

I was just reading some of the post of the prices of ear cropping. I work for a vet that does ear cropping and she charges $325-350 per puppy( the price goes up for older puppies because of the weight) . Some breeders complain and go somewhere else. Oh well. Vets are also in busniess. Ear cropping takes about 45min-1 hour per puppy, sometimes longer if you have a pet owner that just has 1 puppy and needs to show 10 ear pictures and have every detail explained to them.
We figured out how much money she could make in that hour just seeing clients for simple things like yearly shots. The truth is even at the $325-350 price she is losing money.

Alison

[Elaine]

I don’t think there is anyone who does not understand the cost of living… or that vets (like medical doctors) are businessmen first and health providers second. I can’t think of even one doctor we know, not one, who is in it because they “love helping patients.” Many seem to actively dislike parts of their patient population, especially those that are socially and economically disadvantaged and those who do not seek medical help on a regular basis, before small problems become huge. They resent the drain on the health care system, they resent being held accountable for their mistakes, and they resent having to spend time on what they see as a disposable segment of our population. To be very blunt, the doctors I have known are basically in it for the money and the ego.

We all understand the need to make a profit in business, vet’s aren’t unique in that respect; neither are most breeders.

If the public wants a genetically perfect, cropped, docked companion Doberman for $1,500 it is simply not possible to bring that “product to market” anymore. Breeders have to break even too, and with the cost of obtaining a show record on the breeding stack, the cost of health testing, the cost of doing the breeding and then cost of docking, cropping and raising a healthy litter, plus something for the breeder’s time and effort… the breeder pretty much has to sell the puppies for $4k -$5K.


Btw, we hear the Dr. Fitzgerald does a beautiful ear crop… each crop perfectly tailored to each individual puppy, that she is very professional and charges about $250 per puppy. I think it would be fantastic to have a vet cropper with no gossip or bs, and none of that “which are show quality, I’ll do them right and screw up the rest.” Or, even worse, “Which are your best puppies, I’ll screw them up completely.”