When a class animal takes the Breed, what is the protocol for the Group.

[Elaine]

Usually, if a class dog takes the Breed over the handler’s special, it does not get shown in the group. Some handlers will ask the owners of the class dog and allow the owner to use another handler for the Group… but most often the class dog is not shown in the Group.

For example, when Ch. Logres' Tungsten was still a class dog he won the Breed over two Best-In-Show specials, one of whom went on to win the Breed at the 2007 DPCA National Specialty: i.e., Hunter (Multi BISS Multi BIS Ch. Cha-Rish Star Quest Blu-J's) and Marley (BIS Ch Marquis Yes I Am Charmed). Tungsten was not shown in the Group the day he won the Breed. In that instance, we were not at the show and were not contacted. Had we been contacted, Arthur would probably have said, “Put someone else on Tungsten and have him shown in the Group.” I sort of lean the other way a bit, in part because the Special's owner is usually paying more of the freight and has something invested in advertising... but I would have sided with Arthur's wishes and said, "Find someone." It would have been a kick if he'd gotten a piece of the Group.

Tungsten not going in the Group ring was not that big deal for us one way or another, we understood the reasons he was not shown... it was not and is not an issue for us with the handler in question. But that is not always the case. I know it can be a big deal for handlers and owners... even leading to the ending of some handler /owner relationships. There was a rather famous break-up years ago when a top handler took a class dog in the Group ring over her Special. The owner pulled the Special from the handler and didn't have a dog with her again for years.

If a class dog wins the Breed, beating the handler's Special, should it go in the Group? And if so, who should show it in the Group? What are your thoughts?

[fabertdobes]

enough to beat the specials i dont see why he should not be shown in group. I understand the handler not wanting to be in conflict of interest but the class dog his of her client also and paid good money to show it sometimes for weeks if not for months it would be the duty of the said handler to find someone else at least with some clout to show the class dog...this is my take and in Canada thank God we dont play this kind of game...
My opinion :o

[andyhilt27]

ahhhh...yet another reason I refuse to hire a handler.

Are you serious? The class dog deserves to be shown in the group. How far will this nonsense go? The said class dog can't compete for breed against a special?

If I win the lottery or come up with a legal and ethical scam I may decide to be a pro handler:D. If I am only able to take a special into the group ring what good is that? I would think an ethical handler would show each dog with equality.

It never ends....:rolleyes:

[doberdogsfd]

I have had my class dog beat my handler's special in the past. He was taken into the group and shown with equal intesity. I am lucky to have a handler now and in the past that isn't up for the nonsense.

Flex went BOB from the 12-18 /G4. When he finished(at 15 mon), BOB over the handler's very nice special, then went G2 , behind the Standard Schnauzer that won the Group that year at Westminster.

It happens and if the class dog is the best dog standing that day, the judge should put the class dog up. I believe everyone just needs to deal with it and move along.

I hire handlers and expect my owners to. It is nice to take the puppy in and have some fun at first(6-9), in the end the dog needs to finish and in the Dobe Ring that requires a Pro.

Cheryl

[Lili]

If I am hiring a handler I expect the same treatment as any other client. I understand seniority but not games. Elaine makes jokes, but to tell the truth, I wish I could be a drop dead handler and take my own in. Having had just a small taste of showing again and the politics it is a sad thing that it is so obvious why more people drop out. I have a thick skin but even I can have enough. That said, there is nothing like the feeling when you have a beautiful dog and are lucky enough to win. That makes the showing fun. In the end though, you still have a loving companion. That certificate changes nothing.

Since I got sidetracked again, the answer to the question in my opinion is yes, my dog should go back for the Group. If he deserved to win the breed, than he should have a shot at the group. If the handler is afraid of losing their special client shame on them. How petty of that special to dump their handler when their dog just didn't win so they wouldn't get the points anyway. We all having losing days and we don't quit. Sorry about going overboard, but this is a subject I feel strongly about.

Lili

[doberdogsfd]

I agree with you Lili.
They are and should be our beloved friends and family members first. Like us, our jobs are not who we are but what we do. I feel the same way for our dogs. The dog showing is their job, not what defines them.

Right, wrong or indifferent,the Dobe Ring is a Pro ring. What I do is level the playing field. A good dog, in excellent condition , presented by an excellent handler that works to always present a dog on velvet, as my good friend E1 says.
Field leveled.

I admire and encourage the owner handler to go out there! Some folks present a dog wonderfully.....my talents are in a differnet area of Dog Sports.

[andyhilt27]

I hire handlers and expect my owners to. It is nice to take the puppy in and have some fun at first(6-9), in the end the dog needs to finish and in the Dobe Ring that requires a Pro.

Cheryl

This train of thought only feeds the politics we face. Pro Schmo....It should not be about the handler. I can understand hiring a pro for time contraints, stage fright, physical limitations, etc. But to hire a pro to beat the policital agenda is beyond my principles.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." If I can't beat them I try harder.

I am not trying to attack you Cheryl, you are still my buddy.:D:D

[doberdogsfd]

:D I am always up for a dust up my friend...I can give you a name and you can ask them for proof! :D

Anyhow....they aren't beating me brother, it is the reality of the ring and I Play to Win. My dogs shouldn't be beat by a lesser dog because I am on the endof the leash.
Again, some of us aren't able to present the dog we own well. Some can, Linda Krukar is one of them, Ex: Agador.

I do not waste money and I do not go to Dog Shows for a family outing, there is an end result I am looking for. There are things I do with my dogs after they are finished their Breed Championships.

Again, more power to you if you want to owner handle, I applaud you. Again, my owners need to understand I only want then owner handling to get the puppy started and only if they are good.
If folks do not like the fact it is a Pro ring...there are other breeds that do not require a handler to finish a dog.

Andy.....when you meet me you will understand, NO ONE EVER beats me at much, unless I allow it. So, "don't beat 'em join 'em" doesn't apply here.

Play to Win!
Cheryl

[Elaine]

Andy, you need to move closer to all of us... so we can take you under our wing[s] and "splain" what dog showing is really all about. Saying much more here will get us all benched :eek: ... or slapped :mad: ... or what ever... so you have to read between the lines. Showing dogs, especially breeds like Dobes, is about so much more than what meets the eye. Really! :)

This would be so much more clear if we had a better selection of smiley face icons to punctuate our posts with. Andy, do you want to contact vBulletin and ask them how to upload some new smiley face icons like the ones they have on the Chronicle Of The Horse forum? I emailed them, they explained it in detail, I tried and utterly failed. E2 and I were going to work on that when she was here last fall, but we never got around to it.

[andyhilt27]

The system is flawed and I refuse to conform.:cool: I am a nonconformist conservative.

This is a theory so bear with me. With my limited handling skills albeit improving I must say, I should be able to take...oh let's say Trotyl into the ring and beat any average class dog or bitch against a handler with similiar skills and win a great deal of the time. Now, put a pro on the lead of the said class dog and watch me lose miserably. How is this good for the breed or even dog showing itself? Does this not diminish the status of being a champion? Does the current system not exclaim you can finish a substandard canine so long as your pockets are deep enough?

I have been reading a biography of Benjamin Franklin latey. A great read I must say. This man who was a genius, would not play this game as the rules stand. Let it be known that the rules I speak of aren't really in existence. As evidenced by his writings under the pseudonym Silence Dogood, Mr. Franklin if were alive surely would find a way past the political buddy system and get it back to being about the dogs.


"The seed of revolution is repression." ~Woodrow Wilson

[Elaine]

Does this not diminish the status of being a champion? Does the current system not exclaim you can finish a substandard canine so long as your pockets are deep enough?



So, you have a basic grasp of showing 101, :): but it goes deeper. You really need to take a look at the connections between wins and services provided: judging assignments and other more tangible goods and services... all sorts of connections. Take a look.

One thing to look for is the odd spike, a dog that has one BIS (or big win) in its entire life, under a judge who is a client of the owner... stuff like that. If you think any of us are overly impressed with wins you would be very wrong. Some of the best dogs in the breed today never finished. Some of the top winning dogs in the ring are so faulty they should not be bred. I can’t think of any breeder I respect who gets too spooled up by what goes on in the ring. Some weekends you simply have to sit back and laugh.

Showing dogs can be fun, but you should approach showing with your eyes open and your brain engaged. What goes on is transparent as glass.

Show because you love your dog and the process. Develop your own eye for good structure and movement and breed to your breed standard. Take what goes on in the ring with a grain of salt. There can be no correlation at all between the best dog in the ring and who wins. Under some judges breed type, good structure and correct movement seem to be completely irrelevant. If you find yourself showing under them, let it go, tomorrow is another day.

As for you showing Trotyl… that is an example of a dog that actually showed better for a professional handler (Diego) than for his owner Ron (who is the first to say he is not a pro). Trotyl was on fire with Diego, but they held off getting the last pt (pts) on him in the hopes that they would finish Trotyl at the 2006 National. Didn’t happen… so Ron tried to finish Trotyl himself. I think even Ron will tell you that getting that last point on Trotyl took a while. Ron finally finished Trotyl under Phil down in Florida. Trotyl has kids that finished faster. Best case scenario the professional handler simply presents the dog better than the amature handler, so the judge actually sees the dog's virtues (and the faults are minimized). Can’t think of any judge who will says, “This dog is presented poorly but I see through the poor presentation and I will put it up anyway.” A judge who did that would probably get written up.

[andyhilt27]

Can’t think of any judge who will says, “This dog is presented poorly but I see through the poor presentation and I will put it up anyway.” A judge who did that would probably get written up.


Written up for what exactly? Why did the AKC introduce this new amatuer class? Could it just be a ploy to increase entries although you have absolutely no chance of winning?

Perhaps I may win 10 years from now. One thing is or sure....there will be a bird flying in the win photo.:D

[Kissntell]

There are few handlers in S. Cal that I would even consider hiring.

The one that I like goes all over the Nation showing their top 10 bitch and I don't want to share the cost of showing all over the Nation with their owner. I don't need Nationwide exposure.

The handlers here play evil games and often are not nice to the dogs. I will not put any dog I own through that.

So for now, I am stuck showing myself. I could, if I wanted, tell lots of things I know about these local handlers but I will not go there.

I saw that a major handler now gives out their price sheet. It is $150.00 for a Speciality and $100.00 for All Breed. To top it off, they even tell you what you will pay for the points in tip...$300.00 additional dollars.

It used to be tip of $50.00 per point then it went to $100.00 per point, then $1,000.00 for a major.

All this for 3 minutes work? I can go in and lose just as easily. I have shown both ways with a handler and without. I say that if you really have a nice dog, and present it nice, and it behaves, they cannot deny you. That is of course depending on if or not you have an honest judge.

There are so many new judges out there. So now it is hard to pick. I remember Peggy Adamson giving me my due one day. I was owner handling from the Novice Class! So it can be done. I also took a second at the National under Tess Hensler. She knew I was a owner handler and complimented my bitch on her shoulder. So it either is or it isn't.

I have put Macy with a handler. But I had this strange feeling that I did the training, they just went in and did the final presentation. I also know that Macy knows me so much better, and I know her quirks. She is very quirky and I know what works, and what sends her off in a spin. The handlers don't know this.

I think that some breeders who won't place a show puppy unless it goes to a "professional handler" miss some real good homes. But that is their choice and I have mine. I'm just glad to get my puppies in good homes and if the showing comes with it so much the better. But, I would not like my puppy with a handler who abuses the dogs. Believe me...I know of a lot of abuse going on. You'd have to be taking dummie pills to think differently.

Therefore, I don't even inquire on litters I like, because I already know the terms of which I am not interested in playing. I will always do right by the dog and that is all I can expect of anyone else.

This is not to dust anyone's feathers. It is just a matter of my own opinion.

[Kissntell]

BTW: I have heard of this stuff if the handler's special is beat, then the class dog's winning gets dumped. I never understood it, but I think it comes from who's buttering the bread of the handler. It has been around for eons and has discouraged many owners from showing too.

[Elaine]

Written up for what exactly?

A judge is supposed to judge the entry on the day… to chose the best dog on the day. That’s the theory anyway. So a dog that was not well presented would not likely appear to the judge, the ringside gallery or the AKC Field Rep as the best dog on the day. If a judge puts up a poorly presented dog, the Field Rep observing the judging could write the judge up for not properly judging the entry. This almost never happens unless the judge is provisional… but it does happen from time to time. I was at a show recently where the field rep reportedly had to pull the judge aside and speak with her because she was screwing up rather badly.. and given what I saw of the judging I’d have to say I agree with the Field Rep’s assessment.

We’ve all seen judges do rather odd things from time to time. Most of the time no one says a word. Doing so on the show grounds is “public criticism of a judge” which is “conduct prejudicial to the sport” and can get you benched or set down by AKC.

When you enter an AKC show you sign an entry form that specifically says you will abide by the Rules and Regulations of the American Kennel Club. It is the exhibitors responsibility to be aware of the AKC Rules and Regulations. They are available by mail and on the AKC’s website. Many people in dogs never bother to read these R & Rs. They then run amok and complain “I didn’t know.” For those who read the R &R’s, you will almost never see them make a specific comment about a specific instance of bad judging unless it is a very private conversation. You notice even on this forum we try to keep the comments a bit general. It is unusual for the AKC to go after a judge, though they did finally come down on Doug Shipley (suspended him for life along with Davin). As I recall, Doug took money to fix a show he was judging. Rather sad situation. The suspension was published in the AKC Gazette. One of the few times that I recall that the AKC went after a judge so vigorously... Arnold Wolf was another, not suspended for life, but for a few years, but that was years ago, not sure exactly what the charge was… I think it had to do with Bill McKay getting set down. Wolf went back to judging when his suspension was over.



Why did the AKC introduce this new amatuer class? Could it just be a ploy to increase entries although you have absolutely no chance of winning?
We will have to see what becomes of this class… it does seem like you are putting a huge bulls eye on your forehead that shouts, “I’m not too good at what I'm doing here,” but I suspect that people will know that from the way in which many amateurs handle and present the dog.

I saw that a major handler now gives out their price sheet. It is $150.00 for a Speciality and $100.00 for All Breed. To top it off, they even tell you what you will pay for the points in tip...$300.00 additional dollars.

It used to be tip of $50.00 per point then it went to $100.00 per point, then $1,000.00 for a major.

The National is more like $400 per class, plus expenses.

About tipping for points, Jeff Brucker is an example of a handler who wants all these bonuses if he actually wins. We said “no thanks Jeff.”

Sorry but I don’t get the bonus payment scheme. Handlers are either professionals who can win or they are just taking your dog for a walk in the ring. Tipping a handler for actually winning is like paying the dentist to fill a tooth and paying him extra if he actually does his job properly and fills the right tooth. Or like paying a lawyer to represent you, and paying him more if he is good enough to win. We are paying handlers to be professionals, we should not pay more because they can actually do their job and win. They are either professionals or they are not. We are not paying them to stand around in the ring, we are paying them to win. I am not paying more because they actually do what we paid them to do. My idea of a bonus is that I send them another dog. That is enough.

[andyhilt27]

A judge is supposed to judge the entry on the day… to chose the best dog on the day. That’s the theory anyway. So a dog that was not well presented would not likely appear to the judge, the ringside gallery or the AKC Field Rep as the best dog on the day.


Oh c'mon. A judge should be able to pick out the best dog out of a pack of 25 running through the woods.

The very basic handling skills should be quite enough to present a dog. To an outsider of any breed the differences, faults, and attributes may not be so obvious, but to a judge.....c'mon. I am not speaking of going into the ring and one's dog acting insane. If the dog can't stack or gait there in lies a valid reason for losing.

A crappy, noncormforming dog that is well shown should never beat a dog that is great and shown mediocre or amatuerish. Never.

The Constituion of the United States can often be descibed as theories. At least these theories are somewhat enforced.

[Kissntell]

Here in lies the "sport of the affluent." The AKC proports to be a "family centered sport." At least that's what it started out as until the "rich" got involved.

It takes major money to finish a dog and then its all a gamble. I have never made the money that a handler makes. 3 minutes for $150 or even $400.00 is more than a doctor who spends his life in school a lawyer etc. So I guess I picked the wrong career.

Unfortunately mediorcre dogs do win. Its who's on the other end of the line. But some judges will still have some intergerty. And, I think if you do a good job eventually you will win. Or eventually you will quit. So I'm still here, and I know of others too that are still here.

But I will tell you one thing...I'm not about to take this "not even looking at my dog" because I am an amature bit anymore. I'm going to the field rep on the spot. I've had enough of this.

I think this recession is a good thing for those who can remain in the show, and do it themselves, because people will have to back out of these exorbrant prices. When I first started in showing it was $35.00 a class handlers' fee.

And...why are there few majors???

I think less and less people can afford to show. That's a shame.

The obedience rings are still full. Now that gives you something to think about.

[Kissntell]

Way back when they started the Professional Handler's Association there was a letter that was sent out to owners.

Do any of you remember it?

I remember it and the wording in it about how they saw their positon and why they were worth so much. That's when things changed.

I don't mind paying for a service, but frankly, I think some have gotten real carried away. I think the tip part offends me the most, in that they name the price!

And...I agree with you Elaine; they were paid to go in and win. So why do they "have to" be paid again?

[doberdogsfd]

Ok Andy...here is the deal...every dog has faults.
The job of the handler is to minimize those faults and present the dog's best attributes. There are a few O/Hs thast can do that, very few.

The entire package from the handler to the dog should be flawless. There are few that have mastered their craft better then Diego Garcia. He easily makes showing even the most difficult dog look effortless...there is the difference...they can present ANY dog.
The judge wants also to see the entire package as well as how nice you dog is. Deal with it. It is the ring.
I for one will have none one other then Diego on the end of my dog's lead. The entire package is simply stunning.

I am an accomplished dog trainer. My talents are in behavior mod. and training dogs in several areas of the sport. that does not make me quailified to handle in the breed ring.....specifically the Dobe Ring.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

Oh c'mon. A judge should be able to pick out the best dog out of a pack of 25 running through the woods.


Love you Andy, love your passion.. but I'm not sure I agree with you that the judge could assess the best Doberman from a group of 25 Dobermans running through the woods. In my experience, any group that size would be a whirling cyclone of stray doggy parts and shredded tissue :eek:... and somehow I just don’t see judges like Bob or Jane Forsyth keeping up with a pack of running dogs. :( Still, I find your point of view refreshing. I think your expectation of the prowess of most judges is very optimistic… and not connected to my experience of what goes on in the AKC conformation ring.

I think all of this would be a bit more palatable to you if you had a clearer idea of what the judge is hoping to see in the ring… and embraced the concept that there is no perfect dog; they all have faults… all of them. In theory the good handler assists the judge by minimizing the faults of the dog he is handling and accentuating the dog’s virtues.

Let's assume that the judge is judging dogs. The judge is allotted about 3 minutes per dog. There really isn’t time for the judge to stand around waiting for the handler to get it right. The judge has to assess what is presented in a rather short period of time. First impressions are critical… and you should know that many judges actually focus on the faults (rather than the virtues of the dog). :mad: A bad handler can exaggerate a dog's faults. Worse still, a bad handler may not even realize what virtues his dog has, so they do not know what to “show” the judge. (As an exercise... stand around ringside watching as many breeds as possible and focus on what virtues the good handlers are showing judge. The really great handlers are very subtle about it, but the virtues are projected to the judge loud and clear. IF you have time, take a look at the video online of the 2008 Westminster Best In Show line up… look at what each handler is showing to the judge... it varies with each breed.) A good handler will enhance the dog’s best features and minimize the dog’s faults. For example, a good handler can level out a top line, level a croup, tense the dog's muscles as the judge is going over the dog, pull a dog over it’s front … add a little bend of stifle.. raise up a top line… get the ears up… get a free stack out of the dog at the right moment… show the judge the proper expression for the breed, a good handler has one eye on the dog and one eye on the judge at all times... so the dog is a perfect picture whenever the judge is looking. When the judge has narrowed the choice to two or three dogs, the good handler shifts into a whole "nother" gear and really fights for the win by getting that last ounce of EXCELLENCE out of the dog… it is very unusual to see an owner handler with that extra gear. Diego, Gwen, Esteban, Kelly and Andy are extraordinary examples of good handlers. But if you had to pick one to study, Diego would offer a Master’s Degree in handling… so would Kelly or Esteban. With respect to the "total package" ... which includes care and conditiong of the dogs they carry as well as presentation of the dog in the ring, Diego and Kelly set the Gold Standard as far as we have experienced.

[andyhilt27]

I am not talking about poor handling or faults of the dog. I am speaking in terms of the need for a pro handler. There is no need for it. Every breed is competitive. Everyone goes out to win. No person in their right mind likes losing. What other breeds are as polictical as Dobes? That is exactly what it is. Politics.

Do GSDs, boxers, labs, etc. require the services of a pro handler to finish a good example of the breed?

[Elaine]

I am not talking about poor handling or faults of the dog. I am speaking in terms of the need for a pro handler. There is no need for it. Every breed is competitive. Everyone goes out to win. No person in their right mind likes losing. What other breeds are as polictical as Dobes?

Off the top of my head, all three varieties of Poodles, most Terriers... most Sporting breeds are all very competitive, they all favor the professional handlers... they all have ring politics. Btw, if you are discussing professional handlers, the conversation would include the quality of handling and the faults of the dog. You do not hire a professional handler if they can not do a better job than you can do of showing your dog and if they are not capable of minimizing faults and accentuating virtues. And not all professional handlers are in any way, shape or form professional. Some are, some are not.

If you wanted to see competitive handlers you should have been around a decade or so ago and have tried getting in the ring with handlers like Peter Green, Dougie Hollaway, Maripi Wooldridge, Eddie Boyes, Gabriel Rangle, Bill McFadden, Clay Cody, Bergit Coady… they’d eat us regular folks for lunch.

Do GSDs, boxers, labs, etc. require the services of a pro handler to finish a good example of the breed?


Yes! In breeds like those you mention the point schedule is very high… the breed rings are very competitive, not that an owner handler can’t win.. but it is tougher. It can take years to finish a Golden or a GSD... it is not unusual to have class dogs that are 4 and 5 years old.

If you want a breed that you can owner handler successfully without the politics, get a Field Spaniel, Water Spaniel, a Sussex Spaniel , a German Pinscher ... some breed where there is almost no grooming, and the point schedule is low, something like 4 dogs equals a 3 pt major almost anywhere in the country. These breed don't have to have a free stack, you almost never see a professional handler in these rings... it is simply easier to finish one than it is to finish a Dobe, a Golden or a GSD. It's easier to be the best of 4 than it is to be the best of 12-15. And in most of the tougher breeds, the point schedule is even higher for bitches.

[Elaine]

SCHEDULE OF POINTS FOR DIVISION 5 - EFFECTIVE MAY 7, 2008

Division 5 is comprised of: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio.

1 POINT 2 POINTS 3 POINTS 4 POINTS 5 POINTS
Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches

Brittanys . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 8 10 12 16 20
Pointers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 7 8 10
Pointers (German Shorthaired) . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 7 9 11 11 15 16 21
Pointers (German Wirehaired) . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 10 7
Retrievers (Chesapeake Bay) . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 14
Retrievers (Flat-Coated) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 6 6 8 9 11 15
Retrievers (Golden) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4 12 15 20 25 26 32 38 46
Retrievers (Labrador) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 10 13 18 22 30 40 51 74
Retrievers (Nova Scotia Duck Tolling) . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 7 8
Setters (English) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 6 9 11 16 19 30
Setters (Gordon) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 6 6 8 9 13 14
Setters (Irish) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 7 9 11 15 18 27 31
Spaniels (Clumber) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 8 7 11
Spaniels (Cocker) Black . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 5 9 7 11 11 16
Spaniels (Cocker) ASCOB . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 7 9 9 12 12 17
Spaniels (Cocker) Parti . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 8 8 10 11 15
Spaniels (English Cocker) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 10 12 14 19 20
Spaniels (English Springer) . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 7 11 10 16 16 24
Spaniels (Field) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 8
Spaniels (Irish Water) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 8
Spaniels (Sussex) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 8
Spaniels (Welsh Springer) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 11 12 20 22
Spinoni Italiani . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 8
Vizslas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 8 11 11 15 17 22
Weimaraners . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 8 7 13 11 19 19 29
Afghan Hounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 9 11 13 17 21
Basenjis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 9 11 15 18
Basset Hounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 7 9 9 11 12 16
Beagles (13 in. and under) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 9
Beagles (over 13 in.) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 7 7 10 10
Bloodhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 7 7 12 10
Borzois . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 9 12 13 18
Dachshunds (Longhaired) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 6 9 10 12 12 17 16
Dachshunds (Smooth) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 8 7 10 10 15
Dachshunds (Wirehaired) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 6 9 9 12
Schedule of Points - Division 5
Division 5 Continued 1 POINT 2 POINTS 3 POINTS 4 POINTS 5 POINTS
Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches
Ibizan Hounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Irish Wolfhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 9
Norwegian Elkhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 7 10 10 16
Otterhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 7 7 10 8
Petits Bassets Griffons Vendeens . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 6 6 10
Rhodesian Ridgebacks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 8 10 11 15
Salukis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 8 11 13 18
Scottish Deerhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 10
Whippets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 7 8 11 14 16 19 26 28
Akitas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 7 9 8 12
Alaskan Malamutes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 9 10 12 15
Anatolian Shepherd Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 7
Bernese Mountain Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 7 11 10 14 15 20
Black Russian Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 7 6
Boxers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 13 16 24 29 29 36 38 48
Bullmastiffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 6 9 8 11 11 14
Doberman Pinschers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 8 13 14 22 16 27 21 35
German Pinschers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Giant Schnauzers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 5 4 7 5 8 7 10
Great Danes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 7 10 12 16 17 23 27 36
Great Pyrenees . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 7 7 10
Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 8 8 12
Komondorok . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 8 8
Mastiffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 9 9 10 11 13
Neapolitan Mastiffs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 7 6
Newfoundlands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 7 9 9 13 14 19
Portuguese Water Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 8 8 11 11 17
Rottweilers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 6 9 10 14 15 22 25
St. Bernards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 7 10 11 16 18
Samoyeds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 7 11 9 13 13 16
Siberian Huskies . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 6 9 10 17 18 31 34
Standard Schnauzers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 7 8 10 11
Airedale Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 7 8 10 12
American Staffordshire Terriers . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 7 8 11 13
Australian Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 10 8 14
Bedlington Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 7 7 11
Border Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 6 9 7 11 9 14
Bull Terriers (Colored) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 6 6 9 8 13 13
Bull Terriers (White) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 7 9 9 14
Cairn Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 5 4 8 9 14 14 22
Fox Terriers (Smooth) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 7 7 12 10
Fox Terriers (Wire) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 8 8 11
Irish Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 6 8 9 12
Kerry Blue Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 9 12 17 24
Miniature Bull Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Miniature Schnauzers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 7 11 8 13 11 18
Norfolk Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 8
Norwich Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 7 9 11 14
Parson Russell Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 6 6 8 8
Scottish Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 6 4 9 6 11 9 16
Sealyham Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Skye Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 7 9
Soft Coated Wheaten Terriers . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 5 10 6 12 8 16
Staffordshire Bull Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 8 9
Welsh Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 8 7 11
West Highland White Terriers . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 6 4 9 9 18 14 35
Affenpinschers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 5 4 6 5 8 8 10
Brussels Griffons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 6 8 8 11
Cavalier King Charles Spaniels . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 9 10 11 13 15
Chihuahuas (Long Coat) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 7 9 11 12 17
Chihuahuas (Smooth Coat) . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 6 6 7 7 10 10
Chinese Crested . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 7 9 9 11 12 15
Schedule of Points - Division 5
Division 5 Continued 1 POINT 2 POINTS 3 POINTS 4 POINTS 5 POINTS
Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches
English Toy Spaniels (Blenheim & Prince Charles) 2 2 4 4 5 6 9 8 16 12
English Toy Spaniels (King Charles & Ruby) . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 6 6 8 7
Havanese . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 6 7 11 9 15
Italian Greyhounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 8 6 9 9 12
Japanese Chin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 6 7 9 9
Maltese . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 9
Manchester Terriers (Toy) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 7 8
Miniature Pinschers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 8 10 11 15
Papillons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 7 7 11 11 13 13 17 18
Pekingese . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 7 8 10 14
Pomeranians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 7 7 12 12 14 14 19 18
Poodles (Toy) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 6 5 9 6 10 8 13
Pugs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 8 7 13 10 16 15 21
Shih Tzu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 6 8 7 10
Toy Fox Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Yorkshire Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 7 9 8 10 11 13
American Eskimo Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7
Bichons Frises . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 8 6 10 9 13
Boston Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 8 10 10 14
Bulldogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 9 10 16 17 21 25 31 40
Chinese Shar-Pei . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 8 9 10 12 15
Chow Chows . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 7 9 9 13
Dalmatians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 6 10 9 13 14 19 23
French Bulldogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 9 9 11 12 15
Keeshonden . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 9 12 14 20
Lhasa Apsos . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 6 7 7 10
Lowchen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 7
Poodles (Miniature) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 6 9 7 12
Poodles (Standard) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 7 8 12 9 15 12 20
Schipperkes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 6 7 9 11
Shiba Inu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 8
Tibetan Spaniels . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 6 7 8 10
Tibetan Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 6 5 7 6 10
Australian Cattle Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 9
Australian Shepherds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 7 6 11 10 14 15 20 24
Bearded Collies . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 12 12
Belgian Malinois . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 7
Belgian Sheepdogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 8 9
Belgian Tervuren . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 6 5 7 6 10 8
Border Collies . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 6 7 8 10
Bouviers des Flandres . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 5 7 7 9 12 12
Briards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 5 7 6 10 9
Canaan Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 6 7 8
Cardigan Welsh Corgis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 5 6 8 8 12 12 20
Collies (Rough) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 6 8 10 13 15 20 25 32
Collies (Smooth) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 5 7 7 8 9 11 12
German Shepherd Dogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 7 10 12 17 16 22 24 31
Old English Sheepdogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 4 4 5 6 6 8 7 11
Pembroke Welsh Corgis . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 5 6 8 9 10 15 13 25
Polish Lowland Sheepdogs . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 7 6 10
Pulik . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 3 4 4 7 7 10 10
Shetland Sheepdogs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 9 10 15 17 19 22 27 32
ALL OTHER BREEDS AND VARIETIES 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6
Schedule of Points - Division 5

[Kissntell]

So...some of the handlers mentioned or eluded to in this string work their dogs with weights. What do you think about that?

[Elaine]

So...some of the handlers mentioned or eluded to in this string work their dogs with weights. What do you think about that?

I just had a vision of a Toy Poodle in a gym using the Thigh Master…:D

Not funny eh?

I’m not exactly sure where you’re going with this… weights used properly help build certain muscle groups, I have worked out with weights, but neverhad a dog work with weights. I've watched people use tread mills and road work to help improve cardio vascular fitness and possibly rhythm. My feeling is that these tend to be hard on joints (especially high impact jogging on concrete). I am not a fan of weights or high impact exercise for dogs (most dogs will obey, doing what their owner asks, and not complain when they've gone too far. It is too easy to overdo with a dog, who can not give you good feedback until it's too late). I’m more of a fan of good nutrition and free galloping up and down hills.

If you are alluding to the extremes some handlers go to to win, I can't think of anyone who defends those sorts of things. Checking through AKC Trial Boards you can see all sorts of “techniques” that handlers have tried over the years. AKC has tried to police this kind of conduct… it's not easy to go after people who violate Chapter 11, Section 8. It's hard to get specifics, a specific instance, with specific facts and witnesses. People who are witnesses will back away from testifying for all sorts of reasons, including that sometimes they had some involvement in it.

Druing a casual tour of some of the grooming area of any big show (or the vendor’s booths) you will see all sorts of products applied to or ingested to give a dog a competitive edge, most of which "change the dog by artificial means." Some of the things that go on would curl your hair. I have never ever ever seen a Field Rep comment on chalks and colorants, even when the products are being applied ringside.

Since you’re from the West Coast you might know Pat Hastings… she and Bob used to give a Seminar called “Tricks of the Trade”… sort of a sanitized version of things some handlers do (or did ) to win. I don’t really want to go down this road… far as I could tell, a lot of the “tricks” fell into the category of “changed in appearance by artificial means.” Seems to me that after a Trial Board in Portland in about 1991 no one wanted to talk openly about the "tricks" anymore.

You hear that people use steroids to puff up their dogs… you hear that is true of the South American dogs... that some are ferocious in the ring because of steroids. I guess that one side effect of steroids is that they would make a dog hyper aggressive, so the dog would be up on his toes, like a stallion, which is very impressive. The dog blows up like a tick (more muscled, like a body builder)… but I think these drugs also cause sterility, so what’s the point if your trying to produce breeding animals?

In Germany they have Stallion Approvals.. huge gala events, where young stallions are presented at three years of age to their registries. It’s a very important event in a young stallion’s life.. everything is on the line, he either makes the grade and remains a stallion, or he’s gelded. Lots of money from future breedings is on the line, so is the value of thei individual horse. Some of these three year-olds used to look ripped and muscled like fully mature stallions of 6-10 years old. They were real impressive and sold for big money… and then deflated like pricked balloons and proved to be sterile. I think that now they do some drug testing to weed out those obviously abusing drugs. Maybe we should do something like that in dogs, but it would cost a fortune and who on earth would police it all? Can you imagine chasing after your dog trying to get him or her to pee in a cup for a urine sample. Ask E2 how much fun that is. :D


.
.

[Athy]

Since you’re from the West Coast you might know Pat Hastings… she and Bob used to give a Seminar called “Tricks of the Trade”… sort of a sanitized version of things some handlers do (or did ) to win. .

I took a handling class here in Maryland some years ago from a handler who specialized primarily in Danes. She also talked about "tricks of the trade" but most of her tricks were common sense. She talked about ways that you could emphasize virtues and minimize faults. One of her kinda harmless tricks for example was for the ladies to wear bright polish and a flashy ring on one hand and use that hand to emphasize a strong front, a nice topline, a lovely head. She talked about clothing color to contrast with your dog to emphasize a nice overall shape. She really focused more on how to emphasize good things rather than hide bad things but then it was just a 10 week course :p

She worked a lot with us about our own physical carriage in the ring, she'd actually holleratcha if you were fidgety or fussy. We had to run and run and run. She didn't want to see bouncy boobs, flailing arms or mouths hanging open. I discovered that it's hard to run fast and look smoooooth about it...

I know that I came away from that class thinking that handling is as much an art as a sport. I was also pretty sure that I lacked the brain-body coordination to do it well :D

I think there are things that an owner can do to improve their chances of winning and it can be done. Our own beloved Lyn Kargaard is a shining example. But it takes real work.

AJC

[Elaine]

Some of these handling classes, clinics and seminars are really really fun. Our club sponsors George Alston’s Seminar… it is so much fun, and social. The emphasis is on becoming a more proficient handler no matter what your talent level or starting point. You focus on the art of handling, though that does include some of the tricks to present your dog better. What you see though is that some people have a talent for handling and some do not. Like any talent, some are just naturally gifted, and some of us (me) suck no matter how many lessons we have.

We can all dance but there is only one Baryshnikov.


Btw, here is some info on our club's upcoming George Alston Clinic for those who are in the area and might be interested. We met Tracy at our Alston Clinic in 2007. I took Lil' Claire and Titan last year... I think Arthur had Warkant. Claire actually used her ears and her tail... and even "showed" for Mr. Alston when he used her as a demo dog (which gave me the mis-guided confidence to enter her on the Tarheel, where Claire put on the breaks about showing :(). The talent in George's classes ranges from Best In Show dogs to rank beginners... all are welcome... all learn... and from the feed back the club gets, all have a great time.

http://www.moorecokc.org/george_alston_handling_clinic.htm

Moore County Kennel Club of North Carolina, Inc.an American Kennel Club licensed all-breed club

George Alston Handling Clinic For Advanced, Beginners and Observers

February 28 & March 1, 2009
9 AM to 5 PM both days

National Guard Armory - Southern Pines (New Location for 2009!)
Morganton Road (between US Route 15/501 and US Route 1)
Southern Pines, NC 28387

Lunch Provided

Participant Space Limited
$135 Participants; $70 Observers

For more information / reservations:
Steve & Lori Watson, seminar co-chairs
642 Spring Lane
Sanford, NC 27330
(919) 776-4688
Email: wirescott@charter.net

[Kissntell]

Actually, I wasn't going good or bad about the statement of weights.

I have noticed dogs in the ring that I'm sure have been working with weights. I had never thought of the steriod issue. If I remember correctly, back in my horse days, steriod evidence was checked by the horse saliva.

One problem that I have also noticed is that the judges seem to be putting up those dogs that are heavily muscled out. I agree that working dogs on the road etc is not good for the joints/muscles. I prefer free yard work.

What I have seen in this neighborhood is that people really into the pit bulls blatenly work the dogs on the street pulling weights. I have watched and noticed over time that it in fact does muscle up the dog.

I would not think that it would be good for a Doberman in that the body of a Doberman is not like that of a pit bull. But the dog world is so competitive; I wouldn't put it past some. To me, it is about the love of dogs more than the love of winning.

I do know that here on the West Coast, people are dyeing dogs. They just don't get caught because they are good at it. I wonder really...it must be difficult to do unless you are really a pro. It seems the rust and the red would not be easily to define without a mark of where you left off. I haven't figured that out yet.

And...I wondered once, whare do some of those beautiful magahony coats came from? That's not to say that maghony coats arn't real. But I do remember going to someone's house and seeing a flater coat when the dog wasn't showing.

I went to some seminars too long ago. They just talked about nails and coat. But those things were really just no different really than putting fly repelent on a horse. It was just common sense.

I do know from past experience showing horses that the flying around of arms when running look in poor taste. I've always marveled at some who do this in the ring. I have noticed that when handlers pose for their picture they often put their left arm behind their back to not take away from the dog's picture.

So once again it is about the presentation of the dog; and, the whole idea that one does not want to take time away from the judges minute look. That's the part that is hardest for me. You have to go in, and get it quickly correct, because there is no second chance in the ring.

[andyhilt27]

SCHEDULE OF POINTS FOR DIVISION 5 - EFFECTIVE MAY 7, 2008

Division 5 is comprised of: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio.

1 POINT 2 POINTS 3 POINTS 4 POINTS 5 POINTS
Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches Dogs Bitches
Toy Fox Terriers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7


By the time you find a major for a toy fox terrier the competition is fierce!!!

Actually finding majors will be hard to come all around this year I am afraid.

I will be surprised if Indy is a major next weekend.....I just checked. It is.

Here are the break downs: sat. and sun. respectively.
55,DOBERMAN PINSCHERS,22-26(2-5)0
56,DOBERMAN PINSCHERS,23-26(3-4)0

Holy crap....what did I get myself in to?:eek:

Anyone know of a pro handler in Indiana not doing anything next weekend?:D

The toy fox terriers are a major too! Tabitha's daughter could finish this next weekend!!! I will have to take some photos of SuzyQ.:)

[andyhilt27]

So based on the entries for the Dobes at Indy it is a 5 point major for the dogs. If you have a bitch take best of winners then her 3 point major would become a 5 point major correct? Not that I stand a remote chance....:cool:
I am all for positive thinking and all but I am a realist too.

[Elaine]

I await your report from the weekend.

[andyhilt27]

Just so there is no confusion, it is next weekend.

My report of this weekend is:

Eva chewed my pillow. She is proud of it. My feelings are not of pride but more of aggrevation. The back yard is swamped from the 14+ inches of snow melting today. This too makes me upset. I will now be wiping paws for the next couple of days.

[Elaine]

Just so there is no confusion, it is next weekend.


Gotcha... I await your report from next weekend.

[Lou's mom]

from Websters, first used in 1606: "exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace"

and a profession is "an act of openly declaring or publicly claiming a belief, faith, or opinion" or " a principal calling, vocation, or employment"

linky= http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional

...price sheet. It is $150.00 for a Speciality and $100.00 for All Breed. To top it off, they even tell you what you will pay for the points in tip...$300.00 additional dollars.

It used to be tip of $50.00 per point then it went to $100.00 per point, then $1,000.00 for a major.

All this for 3 minutes work?

I'm a lot late to the party, but reading the above somehow brought to mind the professional 'escorts' in NV.

just sayn...:p


I am a professional firefighter/EMT: I now get paid to perform those skills, and some years back I did it for free, to serve my community and to develop those skills. Whether or not I get paid doesn't change my commitment, it just changes how frequently I can perform/play.




FWIW I met Brenna many dobermans ago when I moved back to NM w/Lou. His contract specified that he be shown, not by whom. She wouldn't just let me hand him off, but insisted on teaching us both. And now here we is. :)