2004 Kafka ~ Lizabeth litter

[Elaine]

This thread was edited and moved by the Administrator, in large part because of Andyhilt27’s simple question, posted on #8 below: "Who was the pick on day one? Did that pick turn out as expected?"

While reviewing the file from our old computer (to answer Andy's question), I came across all the emails and other data saved related to this litter, which included email exchanges from George Murray, Mary Hawkins, Cathy Ceely, Bill Shelton, Dr. Patty Edwards, Andy Linton, Jeff and Cheri Helsdon and others. There are several lessons for us all to learn here, and it’s time I’d shared all of this so that some of you can benefit from our experience. I should start by telling you that according to Murray, Hawkins and Ceely this Kafka - Liz litter was an exceptional litter ... far above average.


Was searching one of our old computers for some photos for a friend and came across photos of our Lizabeth ~ Kafka litter. Lizabeth (a.k.a. Cambria’s Irish Rose was sired by Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria out of Ch. Orion’s Rasberry Beret. Lizabeth was a littermate to Patrick (Ch. Cambria’s Irish Rebellion).

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00014.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00015.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00030.jpg




Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria was the littermate of several champions, including Ch Cambria's Mignon. Cavalleria is also the sire of numerous champions, most notably: Ch Cambria's Highly Motivated, Ch Cambria's Highly Regarded, and Reigny’s sire, Ch Cambria's Secret Desire There is more info about Cavalleria here http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416

In addition to Lizabeth, Ch. Orion’s Rasberry Beret is the dam of: Ch Cambria’s Commander in Chief (Rogan), Ch,. Cambria’s The Captain (Dino), Ch. Cambria’s Caped Crusader, Ch. Cambria’s Captain Firestorm and Ch. Captain’s Irish Mist II, Ch Cambria's Barretina, Ch Cambria's Captain Courageous and Ch Cambria's the Colonel. There is more info about Rasberry Beret here http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=436

In 2004 we bred Lizabeth to Kafka, the Top Winning Doberman of all time, a.k.a. BIS CH. Brunswig’s Cryptonite. Kafka is the sire of over 125 champions. He is the grandsire of Eddie. I had seen Kafka several times, including in 1994 when he won the breed DPCA Ntional under Nancy Heitzman. Lizabeth whelped 7 puppies, Brentano, Titan, Jamie, Tag, Brentina, Tungsten and the yellow girl who’s name I’ve forgotten. They will be 5 years old on March 31, 2009.

Since we have a progression of photos from day one through to today I thought it would be interesting to follow this litter in photos. Apologies that our early photos are really very poor quality.

[Elaine]

Here they are the day they were born.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00016xxx.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00018xxx.jpg

[Elaine]

And at four days old, just after they'd had their tails done

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/liz-and-Kafka-4-days2.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Lizabeths-litter.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Lizabeths-litter2.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/00_00012.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/liz-and-Kafka-4-days4XX.jpg

[Elaine]

at four weeks


Logres' Brentina and Ch. Logres' Titan
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/abrentina-titan.jpg




Ch. Logres' Tungsten

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/a-tungsten.jpg



Logres' You're It (Tag)

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/atag.jpg


Logres' Brentano
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/abrentano-and-titan.jpg



Ch. Logres Titanium and sister
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/a-titan.jpg

Brentina
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/abrentina-.jpg


Tag
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/atag2.jpg


Brentina, Jamie, Titan and yellow girl
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ajamie.jpg

[Elaine]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ATitan-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aBrentano-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aJamie-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ABrentina-4-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/A-Yellow-Girl-3-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aTungsten-2-1.jpg

[Elaine]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ATitan-12-1-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aBrentano-12-1-1.jpg


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aJamie12-1-1.jpg




http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ABrentina-12-1-1.jpg





http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/A-Yellow-Girl-12a-1-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aTungsten-12-1-1.jpg


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aTag12-1-1.jpg

[Lili]

First time I have gotten to see Brentano and his littermates so young. They were good lookin then and they are good lookin now. What a nice litter. Wish I had gotten a chance to get to know them sooner. I am lucky to have Brentano now. Everyone should be so lucky to have a nice litter.

Lili

PS I am not predjudiced!

[andyhilt27]

Who was the pick on day one? Did that pick turn out as expected?

[doberdogsfd]

How cute are those guys huh? Great photos Elaine.

Cheryl

[Elaine]

Looking back at the photos of them at a early age I wonder, “what the heck was I feeding them?” They seem a bit "well upholstered," especially compared to the Trotyl – Brentina litters. Not sure if weight early on (within a range) makes a whole lot of difference. At maturity, both the Kafka – Liz puppies and the Trotyl – Brentina puppies carry good weight and have good muscle.

Also, to my eye there is a marked difference between puppies with the South American lines up close in a pedigree and those without.

[doberdogsfd]

That is very interesting. The crew here eat like it is their jobs! Well... guess it is at this point!

[Elaine]

Who was the pick on day one? Did that pick turn out as expected?

Here are some of the comments we got from the photos of the puppies at 5 weeks. In addition to the emails below from George Murray, Mary Hawkins, Cathy Ceely, Bill Shelton, Andy Linton and Jeff and Cheri Helsdon, Dr. Sam Grant (who docked their tails) told us it was the best litter he'd ever seen and asked to do their ears. Dr. Patty Edwards asked to buy Brentina (the Green Collared Girl).

I should mention the puppies are:

Ch. Logres' Tungsten - black collar
Ch. Logres' Titanium - white collar
Logres' Brentano - red collar
Logres' You're It - fawn puppy
Logres' Brentina - green collar
Logres' Charisma of Juris - pink collar
Logres' Morgan Le Fay - yellow collar



From George Murray, Sent april 12, 2004

Elaine,

Guess the word is out. about the litter. Guess Sam Grant has told a few people. Have gotten two calls so far. Going to be a hot item. Just wait , and sit on them.. Lot of people out there wants a pup... But..... only the good people that will care for them right, is better then a so so show home... Plus who gets them to handle???? Let just see what we have on the ground... Don't commit to any one yet... Some people could be trying to come in the back door, such as your friends in Indiana One person that called was - edited- who was the first owner of Kafka.... But she is in edited / edited camp. Edited - showed her last dog after I finish him... Just a dog... I know she has talked to him cause she was asking certain questions, that Eddie is getting real close to Kafka champion stud record.. So that is -edited - back door. She hasn't call me since Kafka died in "95"

Lets be real close mouth on who is getting the pups.... Just wait till they open the catalog at the national...


________________________________________
From : steven leyerly <coventry.corgi@verizon.net>
Sent : Thursday, May 6, 2004 11:09 PM
To : "Arthur Greenwood" <arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com>
Subject : Re: Puppies at 5 weeks
________________________________________

Hi there! Hope all is going well for all of you. The puppies are looking very good from your photographs. I like the girls of course, the green girl looks like a keeper as does the yellow one as well. The yellow one looks more curvatious (angular), but in photo I like the balance of the green one. Boys all look good also-from the photos I believe the white collared one is striking with angle. Oh the pink girl I can't really see well, keep taking photos your doing well. Thanks for the opportunity to see them. We are doing very well at the shows. Until we speak, all the BEST! Bill




From : Mary Hawkins <PRIMARYHAWK@msn.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 1:54 AM
To : "Arthur & Elaine Greenwood" <arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com>, "George Murray" <gmurray@frontiernet.net>
Subject : I just saw the pictures ________________________________________

HOLY SHIT!!!!! You know, usually when someone tells me that they have an all-champion litter.....I just roll my eyes and figure that they're looking out of the eyes of love. I've only seen two all-champion litters before. One was the Beaulane litter where Kafka's father and my foundation bitch were. And the other was Charlie Pride's litter. I think that I've just seen my third. It's a little early to know for sure.......but my guess is that these pups will all finish. Hot Damn!!

I printed off all of the pictures and have them taped to the wall. I have to quit staring at them!

M




________________________________________
From : <JURISDOBES@aol.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 2:52 AM
To : arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com
Subject : Re: Our Kafka litter at 5 wks
________________________________________

Elaine and Arthur:

Great to hear from you!

Wow! The pictures are truly nice. Do you have a show bitch available?

Jeff and Cheri



From : <JURISDOBES@aol.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 5:19 AM
To : arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com
Subject : Re: Our Kafka litter at 5 wks
________________________________________

In a message dated 5/6/2004 8:30:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com writes:

For you Yes, for any one else NO!
George Murray is coming to see the litter again this Saturday... (he was here when they were just three days old). George has seen many many Kafka litters and thinks these puppies are exceptional... and does Mary Hawkins, Dr. Sam Grant and others who have seen them. We are goign to co-own a dog with George.
Do you remember Lizabeth? I could send pictures, including those from the the 2002 National, when she was only 6 months old.

That is a very nice thing to say, thank you! We certainly like what we saw in the photos, and the timing is certainly right for us.

Let us know what George has to say on Saturday. And yes - we remember Lizabeth from 2002. She was absolutely stunning, and we became her greatest fans there. As I recall, I called you from ringside to give you the play-by-play (I'm no Dave Frei in this regard. More like Joe Garagiola).

Please send photos of Lizabeth and more puppy photos, if and when you have them.

Hope things are well for you both otherwise.

Cordially,

Jeff and Cheri



From : Ceely, Catherine <catherin@amazon.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 3:12 PM
To : "Arthur Greenwood" <arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: jeff and cheri
________________________________________
MIME-Version: 1.0
]
-edited-

Elaine, your litter is OUTSTANDING. George called me again this morning - after talking to me for quite a while yesterday. He cannot believe how good this litter is - he is so excited - the few people he's sent the pictures to - FREAKING OUT! Your litter is so faaarrrr superior to the Ava/Oozi puppies at this age it is INCREDIBLE. I am so happy for you - and so jealous. I hope my Tyra puppies are nice, too - I know they will be - but Elaine, your puppies ARE TO DIE FOR. When (edited) see these puppies - THEY WILL DIE.



________________________________________
From : Ceely, Catherine <catherin@amazon.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 3:41 PM
To : "Arthur Greenwood" <arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: jeff and cheri
________________________________________

Elaine, at this point, your litter is beyond very good - I cannot emphasize that enough. You two had the smarts to take the risk and breed to Kafka. It could've been a bunch of fawn pets, too - so, without taking a risk - which was your decision to take - it would have never happened - witness, Lourdess, too. So, take some credit for your judgement and care of both Wizz and the puppies.

-edited-


From : <ALinton545@aol.com>
Sent : Friday, May 7, 2004 4:43 PM
To : arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com
Subject : Re: FW: 5 wk puppy pictures and our filly
________________________________________
]
I like your litter but I especially like green girl111.

Good luck,
Andy

[Elaine]

Here were my thoughts on the litter at about 8 weeks:

Everyone sees different things in puppies ... and a lot is made of the 8 week assessment. Around here I hear a lot about Brentina (the green girl), and she is nice, blah, blah, blah … but here's my -humble- prediction:

Jamie (the pink girl) is the one in this litter... she is extraordinary… structurally and temperamentally. She has a lovely overall frame, she is leggy and square, perfect top line, perfect tailset… much like Liz, only better in every respect. Jamie has a stunning presence, her head is beautiful... and she can think circles around Brentina (who is all GO - a little buzzsaw- 100% of the time). Jamie will go BIS, Brentina will be out in the parking lot trying to wrestle some Am Staff into submission...

[Elaine]

Who was the pick on day one? Did that pick turn out as expected?

We don’t use the term “pick of the litter.” At the very least it is arguably the worst marketing strategy imaginable to label your puppies in such a manner that one is superior to the rest. And, “the pick” of a mediocre litter is still a mediocre dog. Not all litters have quality, not all litters have any depth of quality. I would avoid an animal from a litter that did not have quality through out. Overwhelmingly, a flyer or single impressive animal from an otherwise mediocre litter is not going to be a good breeding animal.

While I am not fond of the term “pick of the litter” George Murray clearly had his pick.. and it was Tungsten. Below are photos of George and his sidekick Mary Hawkins on the day the puppies turned eight weeks. On that day we allowed ourselves to be talked in to letting George co-own Tungsten. I remember George yelling out the window back to Arthur and I as he drove away that could have Tungten’s first Best In Show ribbon.

When evaluating a litter, instead of getting all spooled up about the “pick” I think it is much more useful to evaluate a litter in terms of what you hoped to get from the breeding and which one[s] you might want to use in a future breeding program. Remember what your goals were for the breeding. The best breeding animal may not be the best show dog. And there may be several that are successful show dogs and several that are equally useful for future generations.

No matter how promising a puppy, it can be ruined if it is unfortunate enough to end up with owners who do not honor their word, do not follow your diet or exercise recommendations, raise the puppy in a crate or in a tiny back yard, ignore or bore the puppy to the point it develops neurotic behaviors, and/or subject the puppy to a mediocre diet, a barrage of combined vaccine and antibiotics up the wazoo.

[Elaine]

Ch. Logres Titanium.. the white collared boy

http://logresfarm.com/Ch.%20Logres'%20Titanium.htm

Because Arthur was deployed several times to Iraq, Titan was not shown until he was about two years old. We started him on the Tarheel Circuit in 2006. We used Lance Deloria. Lance and Tracy Deloria are superb, accomplished terrier handlers. They show dogs beautifully. They had Titan for 18 shows. They kept Titan in superb weight and condition, but Lance found it difficult to win in the Doberman ring. So, we sent Titan to Andy Linton in the fall of 2006.

Titan literally went from the Roanoke VA show weekend to a plane on Tuesday and off to Andy Linton. Titan won every weekend with Andy. What we did not know was that Titan was not eating well with Andy, he should not have been in the ring. By early October of 06 Andy had Titan down at some shows in California, Cheri McNealy emailed us, we spoke by phone, McNealy said that Titan was very very thin, with no muscle, that he was demoralized, that Andy was using him as a “gas dog” and telling people it was our fault the dog was thin. McNealy said that Titan needed to come home immediately. During this same time period, Andy was telling us that we should enter more shows.

We insisted that Andy send Titan home… he arrived home from Andy on November 1, 2006. There is a thread about it on our website. http://logresfarm.com/Andy%20Linton.htm

In December of 06, a month to the day after Titan came home from Andy (and after he had recovered much of his weight and some of his muscle), Titan went up to Kelly Marquis. Arthur drove Titan up to Kelly (so that he could bring home Tungsten, who had just finished).

Phil Martin was the first to judge Titan with Kelly. Titan went RWD. After the judging Phil and Arthur were talking, Phil said something like, “Will I see Titan in Florida this coming January?” Arthur responded, “No, he’ll be finished by the end of the month. ” Phil must have thought Arthur was an arrogant jerk. Two weeks later Arthur called Phil and said, “Hey, when I’m wrong I admit it. I said Titan would be finished by the end of the month and I was wrong. He finished in two weeks."

Kelly put 9 pts including a major on Titan in two weeks. He finished at the 2006 Cleveland Christmas shows. Carmen Pitts was at the shows and drove Titan home. With one exception, Titan has not been in the ring since.

Temperamentally Titan is an extraordinary dog. He is loving, devoted, obedient and yet protective. He absolutely epitomizes the very best of the Doberman temperament. Structurally, he could use a better underline… and his forechest is not the exaggerated Oozie type of forechest popular in the ring today. In the specials ring Titan stands out like a dinosaur… reminiscent of what the breed was like in his sire Kafka’s day (which was about 18 yeas ago). Titan is correct size, he is balanced, he is very smoothly put together, he carries himself beautifully with a firm level topline, and balanced reach and drive, coming under himself beautifully. He has good bone, and excellent head and expression and great deep brown color. Titan represents a breeding that could not have been done years ago, he is Kafka's grand daughter bred back to Kafka. Titan has a very strong pedigree - top and bottom - and is an improvement over Kafka in that he has a much better rear assembly. He is OFA good, vWD carrier, thyroid normal.

We have not allowed Titan to be bred yet, but I would like to see him contribute to the breed.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ATitan-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Logo-Titan-1.jpg

[Elaine]

Logres' Brentano - the red collared boy.

Brentano was never shown… he has a ear that does not stand. Brentano lives with his co-owner Lili Mickesh. Like his brothers Titan and Tungsten, Brentano has an extraordinary temperament. Like them, he typifies all that a Doberman should be. He is loving, confident, protective and yet has an inner core of calm reserve. There is an expression sometimes used to refer to great horses that reminds me of Brentano, he is “deep through the heart.” I would trust Brentano in any situation… like Tungsten, I think Brentano would excel as a therapy dog.

Structurally Brentano is square, correct size, with heavy bone, a nice front assembly, good topline… great substance. His movement is balanced, he comes and goes cleanly, but does not have Titan’s extraordinary reach and drive. I wish he has a broader upper thigh and a bit more bend of stifle... and I would like a more refined head. Brentano is OFA Excellent and is a vWD carrier. He has full dentition.


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aBrentano-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Brentano-X3Xflip.jpg

[Elaine]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aJamie-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Jamie.jpg

[Elaine]

Logres' Brentina

Brentina lived up to my early predictions… she does not give an inch, does not tolerate fools, and she openly considers her brothers to be total idiots! Titan, Brentano and Tungsten all have scars because they crossed Brentina. With other dogs she can be tough as nails and determined as any bull. She does not suffer fools, especially not four legged fools. With people, she is very discriminating about who she will warm up to. Some people she loves; some she does not; you will know the difference immediately. Brentina absolutely fell in love with E2 when E2 was here last fall. They would share the recliner each evening as we sat watching television. Brentina is a big powerful gal, it’s hard sharing a chair with her, E2 may still have the bruises to show for it. E2 taught Brentina lots of good things, like how to eat from a fork and how to beg at the table. Without question, Brentina was depressed when E2 left. I haven’t told her yet that E2 will be back on about a month.

Brentina was shown by Lance Deloria on the Tarheel circuit in 2006. She was in Open AOAC, won her class half the time, but could not get the points. She can not use her ears well enough because of how they were cropped. Brentina is a good size female, square, with good bone and substance. We have never gotten a good conformation shot of Brentina... below are the best we could do.

From her first litter (to Ch. Trotyl de Black Shadow), Brentina is the dam of three American champions, 2 Canadian champions, one bitch that needs two single pts to finish; one bitch that needs only a 3 pt. major to finish and a seventh puppy that needs both majors (but has gone RWD to majors).

CH. Logres' Warkant ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20%20Warkant.htm
CH. Logres' Feinbrand ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20Feinbrand.htm
CH. Logres' Contender ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20Contender.htm
Canadian CH. Logres' Voltiare ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres%20Voltaire.htm
Logres' Wahajama ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20Wahajama.htm
Canadian CH. Logres' Weihaiwej ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20Weihaiwej.htm
Logres' Contucci ~ http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20Contucci.htm




In her second litter (again to Ch. Trotyl de Black Shadow), Brentina produced lovely puppies, including one of the best dogs I have ever seen, Logres’ DeNiro. http://logresfarm.com/Logres'%20DeNiro.htm

There were problems in the second litter, that have been very frustrating at best to deal with. At about four months of age, three of the puppies exhibited various degrees of ataxia and poor propioception. DeNiro was by far the worst. The presentation was very unusual and the vets we initially consulted were a complete disaster. For over a month it went improperly diagnosed, first as Lyme Disease (prescribed clindamycin), then Neosprosis (prescribed doxycycline). Then a residency trained veterinary neurologist diagnosed it as “some very rare untreatable storage disease” that supposedly had no cure. This guy wanted to euthanize all three puppies ASAP even though he only ever laid eyes on DeNiro. Because the presentation was so unusual, and as per the totally wrong diagnose of the residency trained veterinary neurologist, NCSU offered to do an extensive battery of testing on DeNiro at their expense. They started with an MRI, which showed a compression that had obviously been there all along, getting worse because it was not being properly treated. So, instead of some bizarre surgery and god-knows-what-all-else, in very young and still growing puppies, very low doses of prednisone resolved the ataxia and poor propioception in all three puppies almost immediately. Last August DeNiro was kicked by one of our mares and did not survive. I will probably always grieve his loss... he was an extraordinary young dog with a heart of pure gold. At about that time another puppy in the litter Fein Cera, who is co-owned by Bill and Betty Price was diagnosed in renal failure. Both Betty and Brenna can explain this far better than I… but the bottom line is that if it were it not for Betty’s unfaltering love and devotion to Cera, she would not be here today. We will not know the exact origins of Cera’s kidney problems until we do an autopsy.. and God willing, that will be a long time from now.



http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/ABrentina-4-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Logres-Ahb-9-24-06-XX-1.gif

[Elaine]

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/A-Yellow-Girl-3-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Yellow-collored-girl-2.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Yellow-collored-girl-Fx.jpg

[Elaine]

There is a lot of information on CH. Logres's Tungsten here on his page of our website. http://logresfarm.com/Ch.%20Logres'%20Tungsten.htm

Tungsten was George Murray's pick from this litter. Murray co-owned Tungsten till Tungsten was about 7 months old.

Because of Arthur's deployments to Iraq, Tungsten did not step a paw in the ring until the summer of 2006. He won 6 pts including a 4pt major his first weekend out. He finished in four weekends of showing, with 19 pts. and 3 majors. We miscounted the points, he actually did not need the third major.

In January of 2008 Tungsten’s life changed forever… he is now co-owned by Brenna Spencer. Brenna is one of the most special people... I think Tungsten is in heaven.

Tungsten is very square, correct size, perfect wedge shaped head, very good topline and good bone. I would give him a longer, better laid-back scapula and more return of his upper arm. I'd like a longer neck, more upper thigh and more bend of stifle. He seems to have stamped his kids with excellent top lines, tails sets and overall proportions, but he needs a bitch with lots of angles. He is OFA Excellent, a vWD carrier, etc… Brenna is pretty vigorous about testing. You name it, he’s had it. We do not like to mislead people with publishing Holter results in the context of breeding data, but he has been tested.

Tungsten has sired one litter, bred to Cambria’s Sebring. Lil' Claire is his daughter. Photos of the Tungsten - Cambria' Sebring litter at 6 weeks are below. Missy had light bone, a very poor head and needed better angles front and rear. Tungsten's gift to his puppies was his excellent topline and tail set, his bone and overall square proportions, good size and good heads. Neither Tungsten or Cambria's Sebring had a huge forechest to offer and you can see that in the puppies, still many, including Lil' Claire are an improvement over her dam.


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/aTungsten-2-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Tungsten-bE-1.gif

[Elaine]

Tag fawn boy (will supplement)

[andyhilt27]

If you don't mind me asking...Where is Jamie now?

[Elaine]

If you don't mind me asking...Where is Jamie now?


Jamie was sold as a puppy to Jeff and Cheri Helsdon. They called her Grace and she was registered as Logres' Charsima of Juris.

Because of my regard for Jamie and the extraordinary breeding of this litter, we imposed very specific terms and conditions on the sale.

We are DPCA members. In general our terms are very common among all DPCA breeders and they include:
• The purchase of a bitch puppy from this litter included a dollar amount ($2,500.00); and,
• our pick of a puppy back, out of the bitch, from a litter sired by a stud dog of our choice.
• In addition to these two conditions, we required that if the purchaser 9the Helsdons) were ever unhappy with Jamie and/or ever wished to place the puppy in another home - for any reason- the puppy must come back to us.
• Also, we stayed on the puppy’s AKC registration papers - as co-owner- until we received our pick puppy back. This agreement is standard with dog breeders. I would guess that most DPCA member puppies are sold under similar terms.

Mr. Jeff Helsdon was my attorney at the time he and Cheri purchased Jamie. Jeff and Cheri had seen Lizabeth at the DPCA National in 2002, where Liz was RWB at the Host Club Specialty and won her class at the National. Jeff called me several times from ringside... and I spoke with him by phone the morning we picked Liz up from the Whites.

In 2004 Mr. Helsdon represented me in a medical malpractice case (that had been filed in 2001). The attorney-client relationship is based upon trust. It is similar to the priest - penitent relationship and is given very special consideration under the law. For reasons of his own, Mr. Helsdon did not want us to be listed as co-owners on the puppy’s AKC papers, but promised that he would honor the terms and conditions of our sales agreement with respect to the puppy back and with respect to returning the puppy if he was ever dissatisfied with the puppy. Because of our professional relationship (as attorney / client), we trusted Mr. Helsdon and sent him a puppy bitch that was my favorite puppy. We allowed the puppy to be registered as Logres' Charisma of Juris.

Things went well until September 5, 2005 when Mr. Helsdon became angry at me because of some questions I asked Mr. Jim Pitts concerning the PAWS legislation. By way of background, on or about September 4, 2005, Mr. Jim Pitts emailed Dr. Greenwood and I asking that we draft a letter to Senator Elizabeth Dole. We did so. The draft (and my attached questions) were sent only to Mr. Jim Pitts (and backcopied only to Jeff Helsdon ). Here is what I asked Mr. Pitts:

“Jim,
Are we current on this? Didn't Strand, Menaker, Gladstone et all (and phone conference with Helsdon) reach some consensus on language which we can now support? What is their new proposal… and do we support it? I would like a letter to Dole to be much more specific about PAWS (SB 1139).
That was all I wrote... just those few questions (that were based on a dinner conversation Arthur and I had on September 4th with my boss, Mr. Gladstone - who is on the BoD of AKC.

Here (in blue font) are quotes from what Mr. Helsdon wrote me in a series of email exchanges on September 5, 2005,
“… I never agreed to any language. Unless you retract your statement, which has been forwarded to me, in 5 minutes, I am going to go public and discredit Dr. Greenwood. I am also withdrawing as your lawyer.”
The information that Mr. Helsdon had to “go public and discredit Dr. Greenwood [my husband]” was privileged information gained through our attorney / client privilege.

Mr. Helsdon went on to write:
“… How dare you even ask that question, and how dare you profess to be angry. You have no right to have anger. I am the one who is angry right now, and I have the right to be angry - not you. My anger is directed at both you and the person who provided you with any information from which you could make such a statement.

Mr. Helsdon demanded that I send the following statement (which did not reflect my beliefs or truth as I knew it) in 5 minutes or Helsdon would “go public and discredit Dr. Greenwood. I am also withdrawing as your lawyer.”
Specifically Mr. Helsdon wrote:
“Here is the language that you[Elaine] will send:
"I was misinformed about an agreement concerning alternative language about PAWS. I understand that Mr. Helsdon has never received for review any alternative language for PAWS. I apologize most sincerely if my previous statement has led anyone to conclude otherwise."

I acquiesced to Mr. Helsdon’s demands, and on September 5, 2005 I sent Mr. Pitt a letter almost verbatim drafted by Mr. Helsdon.

On October 14, 2005 our beloved Lizabeth (dam of Logres Charisma of Juris) was killed by a car. We sent an email of the news of Liz’s tragic death on 10/14/05. This email went to hundreds of people (including Mr. Helsdon). The Helsdon’s responded with condolences. Three days after Lizabeth was killed, Dr. Greenwood deployed for his second tour of duty in Iraq. In every respect Liz's death was a horrible loss to us.

In spite of the fact that I had done what Mr. Helsdon demanded (because of the threat he made to me on September 4, 2005) , he did in fact withdraw from my lawsuit within a few weeks of September 5, 2005. After over fours years of waiting for the case to come to trial, and only months before our trial date, the case was dismissed because I could not find legal counsel to take the case on such short notice, so close to trial.

After the September 5, 2005 email exchange we became aware through a third party that Jeff and Cheri were unhappy with Logres’ Charisma of Juris. We asked that Mr. Helsdon either honor his agreement and fulfill the terms of the sale, by giving us a pick puppy from Logres Charisma of Juris (out of a stud dog we approved of) or that he give her back to us (and we would refund his $2,500.00). Mr. Helsdon refused to do either.

On or about March 24, 2006 we had a conversation with Mr. Helsdon's stepdaughter Darcy Beacroft on the Tarheel show grounds about Logres Charisma of Juris. Darcy indicated to us (and to a third party) that Logres Charisma of Juris was - in her opinion - a pet, but was otherwise their loved companion "at home” with the Helsdon family.
Immediately after this conversation with Darcy, Dr. Greenwood again contacted Mr. Helsdon and asked that Helsdon either honor the agreement and fulfill the terms of our sales agreement or simply send Logres’ Charisma of Juris home to us. We would have then returned their $2,500. Mr. Helsdon said, "no."
In spite of our agreement, in spite of the fact that we had lost the dam of Logres' Charisma of Juris and in spite of the fact that we had specifically asked that Mr. Helsdon honor the terms of the sale or send Logres Charisma of Juris home to us, he chose a different course of action, one that he - to this day - has not informed us about it.

Mr. Helsdon sold Jamie to Marilyn and Gary Schoos for $1,000.00. Jamie was sold without our knowledge or consent. Mr. Helsdon sold Jamie without informing Marilyn that he [Helsdon] had not fulfilled the terms of his agreement with us. Marilyn and Gary were not informed that we were owed a puppy back. They were also not informed that Logres' Charisma of Juris was to have been returned to us if Jeff and Cher Helsdon ever wished to part with her FOR ANY REASON. With the knowledge and consent of Jeff and Cheri Helsdon, Marilynn and Gary spayed Logres' Charsima of Juris.

[andyhilt27]

Wow....Sorry to bring that up. I thought she might not have turned out as expected and you changed your "pick".

Where is the integrity in this world?

Sorry Elaine

[Elaine]

Where is the integrity in this world?


I'd say it's here on DSNN... reflected in the conduct of many of the members who post here, in people like Athy, Ann, Brenna, Tina and Jan, who stand by their principles day in an day out, no matter how the winds shift. Sadly, the experiences we've had in dogs are not even remotely unique. Ask most anyone who's been in this for a while. There is a very sordid under-story to dog showing that most people never speak about.

[dobielvr]

Elaine,

Just for my uneducated eye - could you explain what Titan's underline is lacking or how it should be different? Do you like to see more of a tuck up?? To me, he looks like perfection :) I am trying to learn more about conformation.

Also, you speak a lot about SA lines being closer or farther away in a pedigree. Do you like these lines or not? From what I have gathered , they give you a curvier dog, more flashy - is this correct? Also, anyone can answer this question who has knowledge of it. I'm learning a lot.

Thanks.

[Elaine]

Elaine,

Just for my uneducated eye - could you explain what Titan's underline is lacking or how it should be different? Do you like to see more of a tuck up?? To me, he looks like perfection :) I am trying to learn more about conformation.

Also, you speak a lot about SA lines being closer or farther away in a pedigree. Do you like these lines or not? From what I have gathered , they give you a curvier dog, more flashy - is this correct? Also, anyone can answer this question who has knowledge of it. I'm learning a lot.

Thanks.

Yes, basically I would like Titan a smidge deeper through the chest and better ribbed up. He is smoothly put together, beautifully balanced and moves with a strong level topline, very clean coming and going, stunning carriage and he covers ground so efficiently it is a thrill to watch him out on the acreage. He is one of the best moving dogs I’ve seen.

About the SA lines, there are plusses and minuses. On the plus side, I think they offer excellent bone and substance, great dentition, beautiful heads… and a nice make and shape, a nice silhouette and strong Doberman character. They have a presence in the ring, they own the ground they stand on. On the minus side the shoulder assemblies are not well laid on, the upper arm attachment is weak, the loin connection can be very rough, the upper thigh is often too short and the second thigh weak and too long. You will see too much freedom of the upper arm and too much of a bicycle movement behind. Also, they can be long. If you want a smoothly put together clean moving dog with a strong topline, I would look to lines that descend from Kafka, often through Cavalleria or Eddie. Personally, I would not double up on any of the SA lines. I think the best dogs in the breed are those that blend some SA with the lines we have here in this country.

Given the huge numbers of SA dogs out and about now, I think that the most valuable breeding animals are those that consolidate the best of what Cambria used to have. In that regard, Jan Antonell’s dogs are superb… but you aren’t going to be able to pry one from her. :p

[andyhilt27]

Personally, I would not double up on any of the SA lines.

Are you serious? Please see this video of this lovely linebred Lex bitch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16iClE4nn38&NR=1

I agree with your philosophy of the hybrids between the two. In my case I don't think I have much of a choice on the first litter.

[Elaine]

Are you serious? Please see this video of this lovely linebred Lex bitch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16iClE4nn38&NR=1



Hell yes I am serious. I guess we have different definition of "lovely” relative to a correct moving Doberman. I see a bitch with an over angulated rear. All the movement is behind her. She has no ability to come under herself or push off and extend backwards, which is very incorrect. She is an example of too short a femur and too long of a second thigh. Also, she has a very poor flow of neck into shoulders and she seems to come at you wide. If you watch, she never really stands firm on her rear. I believe that this bitch has been around quite a while… seems to me that she was on the Florida circuit and couldn’t win even with Carissa DeMilta

Also, I wonder how it is that she has the look of being so firmly packed, when her parts don’t really seem to fit together very well. I have only really seen that look in young stallions in Germany. Would love to know what all they are doing to get her to look that way.

[Kissntell]

Difference in opinions. I cannot tell anything by that video and I would reserve comment unless I saw the bitch in person.

Having said that, I have heard from some top people that they liked her. But I will reserve my comment unless I see the bitch in person.

[Elaine]

... I have heard from some top people that they liked her.

Who are you referring to? Might be intersting to put comments in to a context.

Btw, here is a pedigree combination that I think we'll be seeing in pedigrees we like http://www.dobequest.org/pedigree.php?=1&DOGID=19701 There is an Oozie daughter out in Oregon that is supposed to be rather nice out of this bitch.

Btw, Oozie is a three quarter brother to Rowdy, the Eddie son that we are thinking of using with Brentina. It's only the bottom line of Rowdy's and Oozie's pedigree that is different.

[andyhilt27]

She is an example of too short a femur and too long of a second thigh.


Oozi is impressive. I saw him at Indy in 2004 I believe. He appears a little too long in the second thigh to me.

He seems a tad long to me. I like Miles just a bit more. Nice and square.

[andyhilt27]

You're not gonna be my friend anymore are you Elaine?:D

[andyhilt27]

I like this guy the best!!!
http://dobequest.org/moreInfo.php?PHOTORAW=1&DOGID=34108

[Elaine]

Now Andy, you put that photo right back where you got it this instant. :p


About Oozie… I always sort of thought of him as being out of balance… with too much front. Friends of mine who judged him felt the same… but I never saw him as long in the second thigh, certainly not like Inaqui. Hmmm? Bred to the right bitch, he produces very well…and that is the true measure of a sire. It is not so much that they are "the perfect dog" (there is no such thing), it is that they transmit what the specific bitch needs for the next generation. Consider that Eddie was long and not a special by any means, yet he produced quality that others have built on, including Carmen with Dagger, who was square. Dagger is the sire of Mulit BIS Rojan's Dream of Tibet (a.k.a Ada)... and her BIS littermate who's name Ive forgotten, and he is the grand sire of C.J.

Btw, square with the correct angulation is a very hard mark to hit. You can hit square with too little angulation rather easily, and too long with good angulation, but well angulated and square (that doesn't crab or side wind) is a real bitch to pull off in a breeding program. We can't toss out every dog that isn’t square, if we did, we’d have no dogs to breed. But square should be a goal… and something we treasure in a breeding line of Dobermans.

A good example of too long a second thigh is in the photos here http://www.akidosan.com/ On the photo of either dog or bitch, drop a plumb line from the ischium to the ground, It falls far in front of the dogs toes on either Athena or Alex, and they are both standing with their hocks perpendicular to the ground (unlike Warkant in the photo above - the one that you are going to put back :D).

The dog below (Warkant's brother Contender) always struck me as square with the correct angulation behind. And in the photo of Lil'Claire further below, so does she.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Contender-9955-1-1.jpg

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Claire-9857-1.jpg

[andyhilt27]

Elaine,

Who is the sire of Athena and Alex? Oozi is. He gave them those long second thighs. Well their dam is pretty long there too.:D
They definitely got their fronts from Oozi though.
Inaqui is much longer than Oozi in the loin I'll agree there but not so much in the second thigh.

Have you seen Sobe? From the photos it looks like he has great rear angulation. He looks a tiny tad long in the loin. Am I correct in this evaluation?

How does Sobe move?

[Kissntell]

Elaine, I should tell you that by the pictures I just love Lil'Claire!

As to who told me about Flash Dance: Someone here on the West Coast that attended the show. I respect their opinion but I have always found that everyone has their opinion. I have also learned the hard way that pictures don't always tell the truth.

But your Lil'Claire, I must say, I keep going back and looking at over and over. I hope she is doing well. She is my cup of tea.

[Elaine]

When you said some “top people” said such and such, I was just curious about who it is that you indentified that way. Not a big deal one way or the other, just wondering who you consider a top person in dogs. I’d have trouble coming up with a list, and there aren’t many handlers, especially ones that are actively showing, that I’d put on a list of “top” at evaluating a dog. If I had to think of top people, it’d be Maripi or Peter Green… but in Dobermans, not sure who’d I identify that way.

Having said that, I have heard from some top people that they liked her.

[Elaine]

Elaine,

Who is the sire of Athena and Alex? Oozi is. He gave them those long second thighs. Well their dam is pretty long there too.:D
They definitely got their fronts from Oozi though.
Inaqui is much longer than Oozi in the loin I'll agree there but not so much in the second thigh.

Have you seen Sobe? From the photos it looks like he has great rear angulation. He looks a tiny tad long in the loin. Am I correct in this evaluation?

How does Sobe move?

What I said is that when I think of Oozie I think of his front, not so much his rear. I am not commenting one way or the other about his rear. As for Athena and Alex. I have no idea what is behind them (pun ) on the bottom line of the pedigree, but it seems to me that the SA folks like that kind of rear assembly, they must, they breed a lot of it. They seem to select for that kind of rear, those who breed to the AKC standard should be selecting against it. which is why I would not double up on SA top and bottom.

I have a friend who saw Inaqui rather recently (within the past 12-18 months), said the dog sits down like a German Sheppard because the rear is just not strong anymore. I see Ziggy ~ CH. Cambria’s Highly Motivated (a Cavalleria daughter, littermate to Rayden) rather frequently. She is about to turn 11 years old and is still sound.

About Sobe Monster, I have never seen him in the ring as a mature dog that I haven't had dogs in the entry that I was more focused on, so I can't say I've ever spent a whole lot of time watching him move. He has always struck me as sound... and he is presented well, in excellent condition. He just got two back-to-back Group I's down in Florida last weekend. I assume he gets around the ring okay. Spoke Sunday night with one of the Breed judges who put him up, who didn't mention his movement one-way-or-the-other.

If you want to train your eye about movement, watch video… lots of video of quadropeds moving. Watch at regular speed, then slow it down and follow the sequence of foot fall in slow motion. Watch for how each joint flexes (and they should all coil and re-coil). In the side view, watch for balance, look for the animal to come well under itself, watch how the animal carries its top line, watch that the metatarsus extends backward in the rear stroke, and watch (from head on) the columns of support as the limb bears weight. There should be no lateral twisting or turning.

Move your dog (at various speeds), in a straight line (down and back) and in a circle, and have someone video you. It will help train your eye, help to assess the dog and help to decide what speed to move at, which varies for each dog.

[Elaine]

Re Alex and Athena...

I just got the link on their page to work, Alex’s bottom line is double Lex Luthor. His dam Luna de Akido San is a Lex daughter out of Fortress De Akido San, who is a Lex daughter. So there you go.. Alex is what he was bred to be and he has the rear assembly to show for it.

http://www.akidosan.com/pag/alexpedigree.htm

They must like his rear assembly.. they have numerous photos of him here http://www.akidosan.com/pag/alex.htm Drop a plum line from his ischium to the ground in any of the photos and see how far back his toes are. You could drive a truck through the space.

Compare Alex to the proportions of this dog here http://www.dpca.org/JEC/illustrated_standard/Hindquarters/hindquarters.htm

the male on the DPCA website looks a bit like this photo of Warkant... if the handler had gotten him to stand properly http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Awar2.jpg

[dobielvr]

Wow -

what a helpful thread. I can totally see what you are talking about now that you all are having this discussion. Seeing all the picture comparisons just ties everything together and I had a big "ahaaa" moment. Just a few months ago I was on all of these breeder sights which bred with mostly SA lines and was very attracted to the dogs but now I am seeing the differences between the EXTREME SA dogs and our US influence - and I agree I think a combo of the two is the best of both worlds. It makes for a very elegant but more correct dog. I can see what you mean by Alex being long in the body and about the plumb line from his ischium - very interesting. So thank you all!

[Elaine]

In a perfect world I'd like Warkant to be a bit more square... (we hope to breed him to Lil Claire at some point, to bring in the square make and shape of Claire's sire Tungsten) Here is a photo of Warkant - that I have altered - to show you roughly what I hope to get from the Warkant - Claire breeding.... but imagine the dog being black. Note, one of the many indications that a photo has been altered is that the shadows and background are either missing or all screwed up.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Awarkant-1.jpg

[Elaine]

Wow -

what a helpful thread. I can totally see what you are talking about now that you all are having this discussion. Seeing all the picture comparisons just ties everything together and I had a big "ahaaa" moment. Just a few months ago I was on all of these breeder sights which bred with mostly SA lines and was very attracted to the dogs but now I am seeing the differences between the EXTREME SA dogs and our US influence - and I agree I think a combo of the two is the best of both worlds. It makes for a very elegant but more correct dog. I can see what you mean by Alex being long in the body and about the plumb line from his ischium - very interesting. So thank you all!

Thanks. I’m visual… for me it helps to have visual images of the written word, which is why I like to use photos as examples.. and then let people decide for themselves.

We are all stewards of the breed… it is in the breed’s best interest that we learn to evaluate for ourselves and not rely upon others to tell us what is good. If you check, most all of us have two orbs, one on either side of our face, above our nose. These orbs are connected to receptor cells deep inside the bony structure that sits above our shoulders. We are all more than capable of learning to accurately evaluate the dog before us. We may each have individual preferences within a range of "correct" but we should all be able to understand the breed standard and use it as a blueprint for what we breed.

[Kissntell]

If you do that breeding with Lil Claire let me know.

[MissMerry]

Wow -

what a helpful thread. I can totally see what you are talking about now that you all are having this discussion. Seeing all the picture comparisons just ties everything together and I had a big "ahaaa" moment. Just a few months ago I was on all of these breeder sights which bred with mostly SA lines and was very attracted to the dogs but now I am seeing the differences between the EXTREME SA dogs and our US influence - and I agree I think a combo of the two is the best of both worlds. It makes for a very elegant but more correct dog. I can see what you mean by Alex being long in the body and about the plumb line from his ischium - very interesting. So thank you all!

I totally agree with you dobielvr!!! The pictures do indeed help...., I am learning so much from these forums!

[Elaine]

A bit off track here… but as a exercise to help train your eye, take a photo of your dog (or a dog you like), and put it through a program like Photoshop to see what you have to do to make the dog truly fit the ideal. I would not recommend using any of the published photos of top winning dogs because most of them have already been retouched so much the exercise will not be very useful. Try to find a candid photos of the dog, or take the photo yourself.

What becomes apparent is that some dogs are so far a off you can’t make them fit the standard, and some dogs are merely a hair off. It gives you an idea of how elusive perfection is, and how important harmony and balance are. It will help you as a breeder focus on what needs improvement in the coming generations. And, it will train your eye to the subtle structural components that are critical to the overall make and shape of a sound correct dog.