Puppy Guarantees

[Sonquest]

Hi All,
While doing some searching today, I found this on Vetgen website. What's your opinion as a breeder?....a buyer?
Tina

NEVER give a health guarantee. It simply is not possible to guarantee health. If a puppy purchaser wants a guarantee, tell them to buy an ice box! Tomorrow is promised to none of us, so why on earth would a breeder guarantee the health of a puppy? To do so is just plain foolish.

Even with the advent of DNA analysis, overall genetic health cannot be verified because so many conditions are now known to be hereditary, and more genetic tests are likely in the near future. If a breeder DNA tests all the puppies in a litter for vWD, then they can be sold with their vWD status "guaranteed", but that is only one genetic test confirming the presence or absence of one disease. The most any breeder can guarantee is that this dog is healthy the day it goes out the door and it will live until the day it dies. Period. Now, a breeder can have a replacement policy with whatever conditions and restrictions they deem appropriate, but that is not the same as guaranteeing the health of the first puppy.

Another caveat: Be careful how you represent the genetic background of the dogs you sell. The advances in genetic research are widely publicized and the puppy-buying public will take advantage of that information. Lawyers know this. The great benefits derived from the human-animal bond are well documented in human medical literature. Misrepresentation of genetic health will result in ever-increasing settlements for human pain and suffering, making that $1000 puppy worth millions when a genetically defective vWD Doberman succumbs to von Willebrand's Disease.

[Elaine]

Here is a link to VetGen's website http://www.vetgen.com/about.html

I think that the guarantee posted above in Tina's post covers what a breeder can reasonably guarantee.

Here’s a guarantee we could live with:

We guarantee that the sire is Ch. I’ve Got At Least One Viable Sperm, out of Ch. I’ve Got A Fertile Egg; we guarantee that we did the testing that OFA and/or other reporting agencies say we did; we guarantee that the dog is alive and healthy on the day we place him/her in your hands; we 100% guarantee that this puppy will die at some point; and we will replace him.her when/if god-forbid things go wrong, and they may.


One of the problems breeders face is vets who, out of complete ignorance, are often happy to say that a given health problem is the fault of the breeder. In my experience, when you ask vets to back up their fabulous opinions with credible peer-reviewed published research, they scramble like cockroaches in the light. (E.g. we are still waiting for the test results for that “rare Storage Disease” that DeNiro supposedly had. It's been over a year, the Neurologist has disappeared into thin air. His former clinic doesn’t have the results, and they don’t forward messages on to him… so we paid for an “expert” diagnosis that was totally wrong and a test that was a complete waste of time.)

Some of the health problems that pop up are truly heart breaking. I can’t think of any breeder I respect who would intentionally pass on a health problem that was preventable. As breeders we are blamed for just about everything. There is the grossly inaccurate presumption that it is possible to screen for and eliminate all health problems that occur. I wish that were even remotely true, but in 2009 we simply do not have any where near the funding to conduct the research we need to guide us to produce the genetically perfect animal. Even more on point, I wonder if producing the perfect animal is possible... in any context, be it in nature or manipulated by man.

This hits at the heart of why I object to the push by the DPCA (and presumably Judy Doniere) to mandate Holter testing for Futurity eligibility. I understand Doniere’s motivation, she sells the machine… not hard to connect the dots there... but the DPCA needs to take a clear step back and think through the implications of their decisions. We need to be clear that we understand the limitations of the health tests we do and we need to be clear that test results we put into our stud dog ads or puppy ads do not mislead the public into thinking that the test results say something positive about what the dog will not transmit /produce. This is why I strongly believe that Holter test results DO NOT belong in a stud dog ad or a puppy for sale ad. Why put the Holter test result in an ad if it is not relevant to what a dog will not transmit? Someone, somewhere, who’s dog dies of DCM (verified by autopsy) is going to sue one of these breeders who trumpets “I have such and such HOLTER result,” or “I have a DCM free pedigree.”

[doberdogsfd]

I agree with Elaine on this point (I am sure somehow. I am "kissing ass" by saying that ;)) and have always agreed with this stance on "Breeder Guarantees".
I believe it irresponsible for a breeder to guarantee anything past what she has stated and the VetGen site has outlined.

When I purchased Flex, (Ch.Deer Hollow's L'Aventure', STT, CGC), the Finn's had a pretty straight forward contract. It was pretty spot on as to what we just spoke about in this thread. I expected nothing more or less; I did also expect to sign a contract for the puppy.
They were and are responsible breeders that had a clear sight line as to what is correct.

I believe someone purchasing a puppy has ownership in understanding what is reasonable to expect from a breeder and what is reasonable for a breeder to expect of them.


We are after all purchasing a living breathing animal. Stuff happens and all too often in our heart break or need to find a reason why, we want to point a finger at someone. Vets (whom I have great respect for in general) are all too quick to point to the most popular disease of the "moment" as the possible COD or to what is presenting in front of them. All with minimal research and testing before it is truly diagnosed sometimes.

There really are no guarantees in life other then death and taxes.

Cheryl
~Blackwood~

PS. BTW.....NO, I never at any point in time, considered it to be acceptable to put V. Blackwood at the end of CH. Deer's Hollow's L'Aventure'. That was in 1996. I believed that the Finns deserved the credit for producing such a wonderful dog and still do today. I deserve the credit for the conditioning, all the care and love, putting Carol then Gwen on him, and footing the bill.
I also deserve the credit for being smart enough to buy a puppy from them and then breeding him to their Foxfire girl and having my darling Deca for 12 long years. CB

[mosso]

This applies to anyone in PA, not just commercial (USDA licensed) breeders:

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/consumers.aspx?id=163

(it used to be on the PA Ag site, but I'm not sure if the attorneygeneral site is exact wording or some summary).

I dislike the use of the word "likely" - I've heard some pet owners repeat some crazy things (that they claim the vet said). Of course, I've also heard some vets say some crazy (unlikely!) things (No vets I would see!).

stir

[andyhilt27]

PS. BTW.....NO, I never at any point in time, considered it to be acceptable to put V. Blackwood at the end of CH. Deer's Hollow's L'Aventure'. That was in 1996. I believed that the Finns deserved the credit for producing such a wonderful dog and still do today. I deserve the credit for the conditioning, all the care and love, putting Carol then Gwen on him, and footing the bill.
I also deserve the credit for being smart enough to buy a puppy from them and then breeding him to their Foxfire girl and having my darling Deca for 12 long years. CB

doesn't this need to be posted on the "kennel name" thread?

[doberdogsfd]

This is a small part of a post that belongs where Cheryl put it. I am wondering are you just sitting around looking for someone to argue with and a reason to take exception to every post so you can get out all that pent up frustration Andy? Your post lately has had a tone that is normally not like you. If it will help you sleep I will post it there also!!! Is there something weighing on your mind? There are more appropriate ways to get it out, but listen man we are here for you, that is what is great about DSNN.

Oh by the way and I know this belongs as a response to your post so I will put it there too, but the AKC does not recognize one dog being registered under any name as a kennel. Actually it says and I am paraphrasing here, a name used incidentally or occasional is not considered a kennel name and cannot be registered as a kennel name. In the other post I will quote them exactly and explain Kimbertal more.

I hope you have a better day!!!.


Bob
~Blackwood~