Ch. Cambria's Cavalleria did NOT die of DCM ~ Dobequest is WRONG ~ see post #17

[Elaine]

What did Ch. Cambria's Cavalleria die of???

http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416

If you go to the Dobe quest link posted above you will find information about CH. Cambria’s Cavalleria. He is prominent in the pedigrees of many of our active stud dogs… and as time goes by it is more and more obvious that he was pre-potent for qualities that are highly desired for our breed.

Dobequest lists that he died of dilated cardiomyopathy. I wonder if Dobequest has it completely wrong.


Was an autopsy done on Cavalleria, and if so, who did the autopsy, and what were the results? Who is responsible for the listing on Dobequest that Cavalleria died of DCM and how accurate is it?

We know that Cavalleria lived to be over 10 years-old, as did many of his litter mates.

Jan (who’s Ziggy is a Cavalleria daughter, healthy and robust at 11 years of age) tells me that she spoke directly with Cavalleria’s owner shortly after Cavalleria died. According to Jan, the owner said that there was no formal diagnosis of DCM as the cause of death, that Cavalleria actually died of a heart problem that was not DSM. Jan was rather close to the Whites at the time of Cavalleria’s death, she feels that the Whites may have had some part in reporting Cavalleria death to Dobequest as DCM.

Let’s consider the importance of this by looking at the influence of Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria. Look at his progeny and that of the dogs he’s sired. Look at the breeders who used him. Cavalleria is the sire or grand sire of:

Ch. Cambria's Cavalleria http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416
used by the Whites/ Cambria, Gwen DeMilta/ Alisatan and a few others.

Ch. Cambria’s Highly Regarded http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=581
Rayden was extensively used by Michelle Santana / Foxfire and other breeders. His influence is huge, especially in the PNW.


Ch. Cambria’s Irish Rebellion http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=434
Patrick has been heavily used, especially by Jeff Brucker/ Monarch and Suzanne Smith / Alpha .

Ch. Secret Desire http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=7205
the sire of Mulit BIS Ch. Cambria’s Victoria Secret and also the sire of Ch Ravenswoods Azure Sky (who has sired a fair amount of dogs http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=19630

Our Lizabeth was a Cavalleria daughter. We have an active stake in knowing what is true. This marvelous dog Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria has touched hundreds of lives (both human and canine) … it would be nice to have the facts about how he died known.. though at this point in time it is probably far too late to verify anything. And relying upon some people in dogs for "the truth" is like relyping upon ...

[Kissntell]

I have heard that he died of cardio. However, consider this:

Marienburg's Song of the South

Listed on Dobequest as dieing of cancer.

Her owner, who is a doctor, spoke with me on the phone and told me that she died of cardio diagnosed and all.

As to how acurate Dobequest is I take now as a grain of salt.

She did not know how or who listed the death of Song of the South as cancer.

From my experience, and I have had a dog that was diagnosed, it is still quite easily to look at the symptoms and know what you have.

That's just my opinion and experience.

[Elaine]

I have heard that he died of cardio. When standing around ringside people spread all sorts of gossip, some of which has absolutely no basis in fact. I am not interested in gossip from the likes of Moe, Pete, and the SC crowd of ex-gardeners and used car salesmen... I would like facts on what Cavalleria died of.



Her owner, who is a doctor, spoke with me on the phone and told me that she died of cardio diagnosed and all.
As for the fallacious assertion that if doctor expresses the opinion it must be more credible, I think we fall into this trap all too often. Arthur is a medical doctor. His education, license and training do not make him omniscient and he is in no way able to determine the cause of death as being DCM without an autopsy.



From my experience, and I have had a dog that was diagnosed, it is still quite easily to look at the symptoms and know what you have. There are many reasons for sudden death and many kinds of fatal heart conditions that are not DCM. Without an autopsy you are simply guessing. Truth is, when a dog dies most people do not go to the expense of having an autopsy done by a credible pathologist able to accurately determine if the death was in fact the result of DCM.


Again, I am not interested in gossip or anecdotal stories based on assumptions and/or cherished beliefs. I would like facts about the cause of death for Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria.

[Kissntell]

Actually, I came back just now to remove my post because I thought this might happen.

The only fact that I can say is that Dobequest is not always accurate.

There is no need now to remove what I posted.

I think that in the days of last, people did not do post mortums on their dogs if that is what you are looking for.

[Elaine]

thank you

[dobesign]

Necropsy is actually the term for a post-mortem examination of a non-human in a ckinical environment. Second, it was stated earlier in the posts that "people didn't do" necropsies in the past. This is not the case. Whether people choose to release the findings to the public is a strictly person choice. Lastly, forgive me if I am too blunt here, but anyone that thinks that they can diagnose with no education and no diagnostic tool is selling snake oil. I'm not saying trained people make no errors. I am saying that they stand infinitely better odds of coming to a good diagnosis than an unmerited form of diagnostic laying on of eyes (not hands). Its fine to rant and rave but if you make claims, they should be substantiable.

[andyhilt27]

Again, I am not interested in gossip or anecdotal stories based on assumptions and/or cherished beliefs. I would like facts about the cause of death for Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria.


Can you call his vet?

[Elaine]

We have emailed the owners, they have not responded. We would like to speak with them and their vet... and possibly see the vet records. If what Jan is saying is correct (and I believe it is) Cavalleria did NOT die of DCM.

[andyhilt27]

Best of luck and keep us posted on your quest.

[Elaine]

thanks... will do

[Lou's mom]

There are many reasons for sudden death and many kinds of fatal heart conditions that are not DCM.

Very true. My 1st dober was found to have suffered hemangiosarcoma, a cancer that grows in either the pericardium [sack around the heart] or on the spleen. Lou died while at an agility match, in the care of his veterinarian/handler whom he loved very much, while I was away at a month-long wildland fire training program.

Without an autopsy you are simply guessing. Truth is, when a dog dies most people do not go to the expense of having an autopsy done by a credible pathologist able to accurately determine if the death was in fact the result of DCM.

I paid for a necropy because I wanted to know what happened. Even then, the results took careful interpretation, and didn't entirely rule out some of the things I was hearing through the grapevine.

In hindsight, the socialology (sp) of the dog world made fine preparation for my career as a firefighter. :cool:

I did not necropsy my Nyxpyx, as the xray provided sufficent information for me to make my decision to let her pass. I did not necropsy my Logan, as he was a repeat breeding of Nyx, I understood the sonigram from 6 months prior, my paramedic friends could clearly see the PVC's he was throwing on a strip the vet let me have, and he died in my arms.

I will not necropsy Will or myBella, as I know Will did not breed, and myBella's litters are left in her previous life.

When I get a doberman puppy out of a nice line it will A) live forever, and B) be necropsied if anything goes wrong that I don't understand.

[dobesign]

It's soooo nice to see people who are not afraid to use the tools we have avilable! You go Lou'sMom! That's the right approach....now if we could only get everyone else simply opening that line of communication, then we might actually be able to PROPERLY diagnose these horrible fates our dogs endure!

[Elaine]

As if often the case… a bit of clarification is helpful. I am not presuming to tell people that in a moment of extraordinary grief they should do one thing or another. When Liz died, right before Arthur was being deployed again to Iraq, it never crossed our minds to do more then bury her. Grief was overwhelming… as I’m sure it is for most folks. We do our best to get through it, one day at a time.

That said, after the fact, absent credible data, none of us can say with certainty what was or was not true about the cause of death. It gets even more complicated with respect to things like DCM, because even when we know the cause of death was not DCM, we have no way to know whether the dog would have later developed DCM if he/she had lived longer.

[dobesign]

Until we know PRECISELY of what a dog died, we cannot even begin to search for a genetic marker for it. We need to get the accurate results AND we need to openly share them. The diagnostic cloak and dagger crap has to go if we really want to eliminate this stuff from our breed. The argument of great 'time of grief' is unfortunately not a novel one. People face this choice when confronted about organ donation and such. If people think ahead, discuss it with their vet, something like, "if my dog dies of something unexpected I will want a necropsy." Do this BEFORE you even suspect anything. What is the consolation? Some say it' helping all future dobes eradicate a silent killer. Perhaps, the way I see it, you may EVEN be saving your own.

[Elaine]

That is an excellent idea… i.e., to have a plan with a vet you trust… in advance.

My only problem is this: should I rely upon Lil' Claire's vet? Should some of our other posters rely upon vets in their immediate circle? Hmmm?

I’ve said this before Brenna, if you were present in the vet’s clinic, I’d do whatever… but you are not... and as it is, I have serious doubts about the “expertise and professionalism” of many of the vets I know.

[dobesign]

Department of agriculture or the State vet agency does it. Often for a nominal fee. Most routine vets haven't the experience to do a full post mortem with irrefutable results. You need a pathologist for that. Do the paperwork in advance, keep it at home, then if you need it, you have it. All your vet needs to do is either help deliver ir at least refridgerate but not freeze the dog.

[Elaine]

I had a phone conversation earlier this evening with Dr. Clyde Shaw and then had a follow up call from his wife Barbara. Dr. and Mrs. Shaw owned Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria, a.k.a. Cosmo. Cosmo died just a bit shy of his eleventh birthday. He was never diagnosed with DCM. He was not treated for DCM, and there was no autopsy done when Cosmo died. Categorically it is not true for Dobequest to list him as dying of Dilated cardiomyopathy. Mrs. Shaw said she would contact Dobequest and ask them to change the information on the website which currently says that Cosmo died of DCM because it is not true. Even more disturbing, neither Barbara nor Dr. Shaw were consulted when this wrong information was put on Dobequest. http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416

Needless to say, I am changing the title of this thread.

[OldDrumDobes]

This is great and very interesting news!
Thanks for taking the time to look into this, it's appreciated

Ali Doughty
Old Drum Dobermans

[andyhilt27]

What was his cause of death? I see there was no autopsy or necropsy....Is this another suspected cause of death?

[Elaine]

What was his cause of death? I see there was no autopsy or necropsy....Is this another suspected cause of death?

He was almost eleven years old… the Shaws suspect that he died of a heart attack, but it could have been a stroke or a number of other things. The important point is that he was never diagnosed with DCM, nor was he treated for DCM and they never said he died of DCM.

What is of concern is how wrong Dobequest is in entering dilated cardiomyopathy as the cause of Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria’s death.

Breeders and DPCA members rely upon Dobequest as being a accurate source of information. Dobequest has the “stamp of approval" of the DPCA. False information about DCM maligns the individual dog and the value of his progeny. It is a disservice to the breed. One has to legitimately wonder how many people have seen DCM as the cause of Cosmo's death and formed opinions about his progeny based on that false misleading information.

Dr. Shaw is a medical doctor and he owned the dog. At the very least Clyde and Barbara should have been consulted before this inaccurate information about their dog was put on the Dobequest information page. We wonder who was responsible for putting this false and damaging information on Dobequest to begin with. What was their motivation for putting false information out there? Were they simply ignorant of the facts, or was there malice and intent? We have heard a scenario, that is very plausible, and frankly fits right in with other sleazy things certain individuals do.

I think it is "odd" that Dr. and Mrs. Shaw are not listed as the owners of Cosmo on Dobequest, which made it a bit difficult to track them down and get the facts. Turns out that they are both AKC judges, approved to judge Dobermans and the Sporting Group. Once I had their names, they were easy to contact… but getting their names was a challenge because it they are not listed on Dobequest. I guess we should ask, who should have the right to put information on Dobequest, and should that information be verified?

And, should there be some sanction for putting false information on Dobequest, especially when the false information maligns the value of other people’s dogs?

[Elaine]

I emailed this to the DPCA members only list...

Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria did not die of DCM ~ Dobequest is wrong

I had a phone conversation last evening with Dr. Clyde Shaw and then had a follow up call from his wife Barbara. Dr. and Mrs. Shaw (who are both AKC judges, approved for Dobermans and the Sporting Group) owned Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria, a.k.a. Cosmo. The Shaw’s were surprised to learn that DOBEQUEST says CH. Cambria’s Cavalleria died of dilated cardiomyopathy. Even more disturbing, neither she nor Dr. Shaw were consulted when this wrong information was put on Dobequest. They did not know it was on Dobequest. http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416


According to Dr. and Mrs. Shaw, Cosmo died just a bit shy of his eleventh birthday. He was never diagnosed with DCM. He was not treated for DCM, and there was no autopsy done when Cosmo died. Categorically it is wrong for Dobequest to list him as having died of dilated cardiomyopathy.

Cosmo was almost eleven years old when he died, he was healthy through out his life, up until about two weeks before his death. The Shaw’s suspect that he died of a heart attack, but it could have been a stroke or a number of other things. He was an old dog at the time of his death. The important point is that he was never diagnosed with DCM, nor was he treated for DCM and the Shaw’s never said he died of DCM. Dr. Shaw is a medical doctor and he owned the dog. At the very least Dr. and Mrs. Shaw should have been consulted before this inaccurate information about their dog was put on the Dobequest information page.


What is of concern is how wrong Dobequest is in entering dilated cardiomyopathy as the cause of Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria’s death and the residual damage of listing this wrong information because of the stigma in our breed of dying from DCM.

Breeders rely upon Dobequest as being a accurate source of information. Dobequest has the “stamp of approval" of the DPCA. False information about death caused by DCM maligns the individual dog and the value of his progeny. We owned a Cavalleria daughter and have a vested interest in not allowing false information on an official DPCA site, especially when said false information maligns the value of our dogs. False information is a disservice to the breed as a whole, and to all who have descendants from Cavalleria, which includes breeders like: Foxfire, Monarch, Cambria, Alpha, Gemstone, Alisaton Ravenna, Fantaja and many others who’s dogs descend from Cavalleria sons and daughters. One has to legitimately wonder how many people have seen DCM as the cause of Cosmo's death and formed opinions about the value of his progeny based on the false misleading information on Dobequest. At the very least, it needs to be corrected ASAP


-Elaine Greenwood

[Athy]

At a minimum, the Dobequest application should provide an audit function that tracks the name and date of all entries to the database. An audit trail could at least provide a method of checking the data.

I haven't looked into it - I would think there is some kind of users or adminstrator's guide for it somewhere? Anyone know?

Athy

[Elaine]

The response I got was that they could not allow my post to go through because "There will or SHOULD be a response" and the list moderator was going to be out for the day. I was asked if it was okay with me to delay posting my email.

As is often the case, I am appalled with how the DPCA members list is moderated. My response to the list moderator is below:


RE: Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria did not die of DCM ~ Dobequest is wrong‏
From: Arthur Greenwood (arthurgreenwood@hotmail.com)
Sent: Thu 2/26/09 10:47 AM
To: danjodobies@snowcrest.net

No, it is not "okay with me." But I have no control over how you and Sam edit this list. Bluntly, there is no credible reason what-so-ever for holding the post… none at all. The truth about how Cavalleria died should be out there ASAP. The DPCA should be working diligently to undo the damage it has done by disseminating false information, which negatively impacts the value of our personal property. This delay amounts to complicity in a lie. This list and the DPCA DObequest should be vocal about correcting the false and misleading information the DPCA has disseminated.

But you and Sam will do what you are going to do.

-Elaine

http://logresfarm.com/ and http://dogshownewsnetwork.com

[LoveThoseReds]

At a minimum, the Dobequest application should provide an audit function that tracks the name and date of all entries to the database. An audit trail could at least provide a method of checking the data.

I haven't looked into it - I would think there is some kind of users or adminstrator's guide for it somewhere? Anyone know?

Athy

There is an audit feature - on any dog's Dobequest entry, you can click the 'view edit hostory' to see who has entered/updated/changed information on each and every dog.

[LoveThoseReds]

I have heard that he died of cardio. However, consider this:

Marienburg's Song of the South

Listed on Dobequest as dieing of cancer.

Her owner, who is a doctor, spoke with me on the phone and told me that she died of cardio diagnosed and all.

As to how acurate Dobequest is I take now as a grain of salt.

She did not know how or who listed the death of Song of the South as cancer.

From my experience, and I have had a dog that was diagnosed, it is still quite easily to look at the symptoms and know what you have.

That's just my opinion and experience.

I have an email in my possession that says Marienburg's Song of the South's owner said the dog died of cancer at 6 years old.

I wonder which it is - cancer or cardio?

[Athy]

There is an audit feature - on any dog's Dobequest entry, you can click the 'view edit hostory' to see who has entered/updated/changed information on each and every dog.

Well, then if anyone sees information that is incorrect, we should check the history to see who put the bad information in. And definitely correct it if you can.

Athy

[Athy]

I have an email in my possession that says Marienburg's Song of the South's owner said the dog died of cancer at 6 years old.

I wonder which it is - cancer or cardio?

Is the email from the owner herself or from another person who said the owner said cancer?

Athy

[Elaine]

There is an audit feature - on any dog's Dobequest entry, you can click the 'view edit hostory' to see who has entered/updated/changed information on each and every dog.

Here is the edit history for Ch. Cambria's Cavalleria

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-05-08 12:23:59 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set Dam for dog 416 to 437 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2008-03-10 20:13:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Susan Van Orman Claggett on 2007-11-18 00:59:31 made change
'Set Dam for dog 416 to 437 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-10-24 19:08:27 made change
'Set Sire for dog 416 to 45 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:44 made change
'Removed All Progeny for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Added 19667+16252+8116+21059+8112+8109+8110+8415+8351+81 15+8111+8107+7205+7206+521+434+2885+1334+8352+418+ 581+19600+19701+19702+6885+19842+19703+19680+19681 +19682 Progeny for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Removed dog 416 from s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 45 s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 437 s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Removed All Siblings for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Removed 416 as sibling for All Dogs416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Removed All Breeders for Dogs for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Added 175+ Breeders for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Removed All Owners for Dogs for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Added Owners for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:58:45 made change
'Updated with RegisteredName='Cambria\'s Cavalleria', Alias=NULL, CallName='Cosmo', AKC='WP54264013', AKCStudBookYear=97, AKCStudBookMonth=6, CKC=NULL, CKCStudBookYear=NULL, CKCStudBookMonth=NULL, OtherRegistration=NULL, OtherRegistrationCountry=5, Sex='M', Genotype=1, Colour=2, Dentition=1, Height=NULL, Length=NULL, AdultWeight=NULL, DNAprofile=NULL, BirthCountry=4, CauseOfDeath='Cilated cardiomyopathy', birthYear=1994, birthMonth=3, birthDay=6, deathYear=2005, deathMonth=02, deathDay=NULL, confirmedCauseOfDeath='Unknown', SireID=45, damID=437, namePrefix='Ch.', nameSuffix=NULL, publication1=' ', publication2=' ', publication3=' ''

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed All Progeny for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Added 19682+19681+19680+19703+19842+6885+19702+19701+196 00+581+418+8352+1334+2885+434+521+7206+7205+8107+8 111+8115+8351+8415+8110+8109+8112+21059+8116+16252 +19667 Progeny for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed dog 416 from s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 45 s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 437 s progeny'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed All Siblings for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed 416 as sibling for All Dogs416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed All Breeders for Dogs for 416'Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21

15:59:20 made change
'Added 175+ Breeders for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Removed All Owners for Dogs for 416'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change
'Added Owners for 416'


Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 15:59:20 made change 'Updated with RegisteredName='Cambria\'s Cavalleria', Alias=NULL, CallName='Cosmo', AKC='WP54264013', AKCStudBookYear=97, AKCStudBookMonth=6, CKC=NULL, CKCStudBookYear=NULL, CKCStudBookMonth=NULL, OtherRegistration=NULL, OtherRegistrationCountry=5, Sex='M', Genotype=1, Colour=2, Dentition=1, Height=NULL, Length=NULL, AdultWeight=NULL, DNAprofile=NULL, BirthCountry=4, CauseOfDeath='Dilated cardiomyopathy', birthYear=1994, birthMonth=3, birthDay=6, deathYear=2005, deathMonth=2, deathDay=NULL, confirmedCauseOfDeath='Unknown', SireID=45, damID=437, namePrefix='Ch.', nameSuffix=NULL, publication1=' ', publication2=' ', publication3=' ''

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-02-21 16:00:39 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set Sire for dog 416 to 45 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Ruth Russell on 2006-04-17 17:25:20 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Jessica Ross on 2006-04-20 01:35:55 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-02-22 20:33:01 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:27 made change
'Removed All Progeny for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Added 19667+8116+21059+8112+8109+8110+8351+8415+8111+810 7+7205+7206+521+2885+1334+8352+418+581+16252+19600 +19702+6885+19842+19703+19680+19681+19682+24979+25 576+25577+25579+25580+27633+19701+27637+27638+2764 3+27640+32682+33093+33110+32619+9218+8115+434 Progeny for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Removed dog 416 from s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 45 s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 437 s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Removed All Siblings for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Removed 416 as sibling for All Dogs416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:28 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Removed All Breeders for Dogs for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Added 175+ Breeders for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Removed All Owners for Dogs for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Added Owners for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2007-04-22 19:34:29 made change
'Updated with RegisteredName='Cambria\'s Cavalleria', Alias=NULL, CallName='Cosmo', AKC='WP64742801', AKCStudBookYear=1997, AKCStudBookMonth=6, CKC=NULL, CKCStudBookYear=NULL, CKCStudBookMonth=NULL, OtherRegistration=NULL, OtherRegistrationCountry=5, Sex='M', Genotype=1, Colour=2, Dentition=1, Height=NULL, Length=NULL, AdultWeight=NULL, DNAprofile=NULL, BirthCountry=4, CauseOfDeath='Dilated cardiomyopathy', birthYear=1994, birthMonth=3, birthDay=6, deathYear=2005, deathMonth=2, deathDay=NULL, confirmedCauseOfDeath='Unknown', SireID=45, damID=437, namePrefix='Ch', nameSuffix=NULL, publication1=' ', publication2=' ', publication3=' ''

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set Sire for dog 416 to 45 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Catherine Kendrick on 2008-12-02 17:08:15 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set Dam for dog 416 to 437 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Kim Davis on 2009-02-12 18:55:58 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:09 made change
'Removed All Progeny for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:11 made change
'Added 434+32619+33110+33093+32682+27640+8115+27643+27638 +27637+19701+27633+25580+25579+25577+25576+24979+1 9682+19680+19703+19842+6885+19702+19681+19600+1625 2+581+418+8352+1334+2885+521+7206+7205+8107+8111+8 415+8351+9218+8110+8109+8112+21059+8116+19667+3649 8+36646+36646+16251+36884+36907+37802 Progeny for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:11 made change
'Removed dog 416 from s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:11 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 45 s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:11 made change
'inserted dog 416 into 437 s progeny'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:11 made change
'Removed All Siblings for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Removed 416 as sibling for All Dogs416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 3751 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6716 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6717 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6723 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6929 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Set dog 416 as sibling to 6726 (From setting as progeny)'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Removed All Breeders for Dogs for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Added 175+ Breeders for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Removed All Owners for Dogs for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Added 6347+ Owners for 416'

Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Updated with RegisteredName='Cambria\'s Cavalleria', Alias=NULL, CallName='Cosmo', AKC='WP54264013', AKCStudBookYear=1997, AKCStudBookMonth=6, CKC=NULL, CKCStudBookYear=NULL, CKCStudBookMonth=NULL, OtherRegistration=NULL, OtherRegistrationCountry=5, Sex='M', Genotype=1, Colour=2, Dentition=1, Height=NULL, Length=NULL, AdultWeight=NULL, DNAprofile=NULL, BirthCountry=4, CauseOfDeath='Dilated cardiomyopathy', birthYear=1994, birthMonth=3, birthDay=6, deathYear=2005, deathMonth=2, deathDay=NULL, confirmedCauseOf Death='Unknown', SireID=45, damID=437, namePrefix='Ch', nameSuffix=NULL, publication1=' ', publication2=' ', publication3=' ''


DobeQuest © Doberman Pinscher Club of America

[andyhilt27]

I don't know of Jessica Ross. Was she even affiliated with Cosmo at all?

[Elaine]

I don't know of Jessica Ross. Was she even affiliated with Cosmo at all?

I believe the Jessica is a vet who volunteers her time to edit Dobequest. I would be surprised if Ms. Ross added the information on how Cosmo died on her own initiative. I believe that someone other than the Shaw’s told her that was the cause of death. Now, a reasonable question is, “who told Jessica that Cavalleria died of dilated cardiomyopathy?”

Seems to me it would have to be someone somehow connected with the dog, so that Jessica would believe them. Who could that be? (Btw, Jan has a theory, which is more plausabe with each passing moment. :cool:) Bottomline, I don't believe that Jessica has any connection to Ch. Cambria's Cavalleria. According to the Shaw's they did not even know about Dobequest listing the cause of death as DCM.

I think there needs to be a bit more oversight with respect to the information posted on Dobequest. It seem reckless and irresponsible for the DPCA to allow false information to be disseminated on this official DPCA website. It is easy to connect to how damaging it is that many many people over the years have read (and believed) that Ch. Cambria’s Cavalleria died of dilated cardiomyopathy because the DPCA is indirectly saying so. That, in and of itself, is cause for concern.

Btw, it looks to me like the Shaws name was addded to Dobequest by Michelle Kramer today, February 26, 2009.

"Michelle Kramer on 2009-02-26 10:40:12 made change
'Added 6347+ Owners for 416'

[LoveThoseReds]

I believe Dobequest is a database and not a registry.

There is an edit history, so it's easy to see who changed/added information.

I went and looked at Cosmo's dobequest entry, and next to his cause of death it shows a 'U' for 'unknown' as to whether the cause of death listed is suspected or confirmed. I'm not saying that it's okay for some random cause of death to be entered because hey, it's listed as 'unknown' as to whether it was suspected or confirmed. I'm just pointing this out on this dog's record, that whoever entered his cause of death did not enter whether it was suspected or confirmed, so it's listed as 'unknown'.

I don't think any DPCA member or volunteer goes into dobequest and enters information knowing it's wrong. They enter information as they know it to be true from magazines, catalogs, OFA/other public records, reliable conversations. But since it's not a registry, there's no one approving each and every entry. For the few number of errors/omissions that might be in dobequest, there are tens of thousands of accurate records.

If there are spelling mistakes that annoy you, if you're a DPCA member, you can take the time to update the information or at least email the dobequest chairperson so she can update it.

Has anyone on this list contacted the dobequest chairperson regarding Cosmo's record?

[LoveThoseReds]

I believe the Jessica is a vet who volunteers her time to edit Dobequest.

I don't know whether Jessica was a vet and i don't know whether she did any volunteering for dobequest, but she doesn't do anything on earth anymore since she passed away last summer.

[Elaine]

I believe Dobequest is a database and not a registry.

There is an edit history, so it's easy to see who changed/added information.

I went and looked at Cosmo's dobequest entry, and next to his cause of death it shows a 'U' for 'unknown' as to whether the cause of death listed is suspected or confirmed. I'm not saying that it's okay for some random cause of death to be entered because hey, it's listed as 'unknown' as to whether it was suspected or confirmed. I'm just pointing this out on this dog's record, that whoever entered his cause of death did not enter whether it was suspected or confirmed, so it's listed as 'unknown'.

I don't think any DPCA member or volunteer goes into dobequest and enters information knowing it's wrong. They enter information as they know it to be true from magazines, catalogs, OFA/other public records, reliable conversations. But since it's not a registry, there's no one approving each and every entry. For the few number of errors/omissions that might be in dobequest, there are tens of thousands of accurate records.

If there are spelling mistakes that annoy you, if you're a DPCA member, you can take the time to update the information or at least email the dobequest chairperson so she can update it.

Has anyone on this list contacted the dobequest chairperson regarding Cosmo's record?

Re database v. registry... interesting distinction… I don't buy that it is relevant to any point made on this thread.

I am aware there is an edit history, which is why I posted it. But how many people do you think take the time to check the edit history of a dog? Who has the time? How many people simply read the page and believe that this official DPCA source - Dobequest - is accurate?

AS for relying upon advertisements and magazines articles as credible sources of information... you're kidding right? Jack Anderson is dead and gone. Ads and articles are often rhetoric, hyperbole… and just plan bullshit. They are not necessarily credible sources of information. In the case of Cavalleria, the "reliable" source was totally wrong. And I'd like to know who that source was.

Bottom line, the DPCA has no business disseminating such damaging false information… doing so is misleading, it negatively impacts the value of people's property, it makes a farce of Dobequest and is diametrically opposed to the best interests of our breed.

As for contacting Dobequest to update the information, I sent an email (which I quoted on this thread) to the DPCA members list yesterday. Are you suggesting that it is a coincidence that they added the Shaw’s name yesterday? Or that in the approximately 500 views of this thread it hasn’t come to Kramer’s attention that the information is false.


I just checked Dobquest... here is what is says as of 4:17 pm EST http://www.dobequest.org/profile.php?DOGID=416

registered name Ch Cambria's Cavalleria
alias
call name Cosmo

akc # WP54264013 ckc #
akc studbook 6 1997 ckc studbook other #
date of birth 3-6-1994 country United States other country
sex Male dentition
color Black height (inches) weight (lbs)
genotype length (inches) dna Profile
date of death 2-2005 cause of death Dilated cardiomyopathy


To the right of Cause of Death is a ? mark with a pull down menu that has two options: C is for confirmed cause of death and S is for suspected cause of death.

Fairly read, Dobequest says, Cause of death, Dilated cardiomyopathy and then there is a U… there is no pull down menu to explain what the U means. I do not think it is reasonable to believe that people will see the U and then go check the edit history (which is very long), to figure out what the heck U means. The phrase Dilated cardiomyopathy should not be on Cavalleria’s page.

[Elaine]

I don't know whether Jessica was a vet and i don't know whether she did any volunteering for dobequest, but she doesn't do anything on earth anymore since she passed away last summer.
So, you'd be happier with "was" instead of "is." I did not know her and had not heard of her passing... condolences to her loved ones. I must have missed the announcement from Cheri and Linda, but then, maybe you're a lot closer to those two than I am. I didn't realize that Jessica lived with Linda Hoff Siegel.

To be clear, I am not critical of Jessica (or any person) so much as I am critical of the overall system for adding and editing information on Dobequest. The goal here is simply that the DPCA see the error… correct it ASAP (which would have been 2-26-09) and recognize that the error has potentially serious consequences. Ideally the DPCA will take steps to correct the problem… before someone gets really pissed.

[LoveThoseReds]

I'm sure you've seen the Dobequest chairperson's response on DPCAOnline which I thought was very appropriate and comprehensive.

[Lou's mom]

I haven't seen it: can you post a link?

[Elaine]

I'm sure you've seen the Dobequest chairperson's response on DPCAOnline which I thought was very appropriate and comprehensive.
Haven’t seen it either... I was wondering… re: your sense of what is “appropriate” ... do you have a stake in this issue? , i.e., do you have Cavalleria in your pedigree?

[LoveThoseReds]

I haven't seen it: can you post a link?

I don't believe posts on DPCAOnline are permitted to be cross posted. If you're a DPCA member and a member of DPCAOnline Yahoo group, you can go to Yahoo and read the post from 2/28/2009.

[LoveThoseReds]

Haven’t seen it either... I was wondering… re: your sense of what is “appropriate” ... do you have a stake in this issue? , i.e., do you have Cavalleria in your pedigree?

No

[Lou's mom]

not a member...

how bout a synopsis? ;)

[Elaine]

Haven’t seen it either... I was wondering… re: your sense of what is “appropriate” ... do you have a stake in this issue? , i.e., do you have Cavalleria in your pedigree?
No




So, tell us about the dogs you have.. tell us who they are.

[Athy]

Re what was posted on the DPCA list, Cathy Kendrick informed the group that over the next month or so, access privileges to the Dobequest database were going to be synchronized with the current DPCA membership list.

I guess that will ensure that only current DPCA members can update the information in the Dobequest database. I'm not sure that it answers the question about why a random DPCA member could update records for any dog in the database.

It seems that there should be some sort of credentialing process for record updates.

Athy

[LoveThoseReds]

Re what was posted on the DPCA list, Cathy Kendrick informed the group that over the next month or so, access privileges to the Dobequest database were going to be synchronized with the current DPCA membership list.

I guess that will ensure that only current DPCA members can update the information in the Dobequest database. I'm not sure that it answers the question about why a random DPCA member could update records for any dog in the database.

It seems that there should be some sort of credentialing process for record updates.

Athy

That isn't the post I was referring to. I was referring to the post she made re. this topic of Cavalleria.

[LoveThoseReds]

not a member...

how bout a synopsis? ;)

How about a blurb straight from Dobequest?


...from The DPCA Code of Ethics

"All advertising should be honest and not in any way misrepresentative, fraudulent, or misleading"

The Doberman Pinscher Club of America and it's Members disclaim any liability for the accuracy or meaning of any information provided on this web site. Users agree to use or rely on such information solely at their own risk. This disclaimer provides no warranty, express or implied, as to the accuracy of any information, and users agree to hold the Doberman Pinscher Club of America, the site operator, or any successor or representative thereof, harmless from any claim, liability, or damage resulting from any use of the information on the web site. All photographs are protected by copyright law.

[Lou's mom]

was that the Chair's appropriate response? Reads like a standard web disclaimer.

[Elaine]

Me too! I guess when you have no stake in the issue it's a whole lot easier to buy a line of BS. :rolleyes: