New Member

[bmgillespie]

Hello everyone,
My name is Bryant and I live in Reynoldsburg, Ohio with my 3 Doberman puppies. Two 4 month old males and one soon to be six month old female. Pictures are under Fun Photos under test post. They are all imports, though I like all Dobermans and have owned both American & Euro. I plan to start a kennel in a couple of years and I am in the process of gathering all the info I can get, which is one of the main reasons for joining DSNN. Out of all the dogs I have owned I only have had one female and I did not have her to long. I will be looking for any info for raising her becuase I plan to get another in the spring to complete my foundation.

[Elaine]

Welcome Bryant,

I saw your photos on your other post… hard to say a whole lot, but it seems your dogs have really nice bone.

About imports and breeding dogs with wide open pedigrees… it is a tricky business. You are trying to start by working "outside the box" ... and in my experience it’s better that you start "inside the box" for a decade or so, to truly understand what all is involved.

In the mid 1990’s I co-owned for a brief time a Giant Schnauzer import… from Holland. He was a superb example of the breed. I made that assessment of him when I first saw him in Louisville in about 1991- 1992 , when he was about 7 months of age. I did not co-own him until years later when his owners decided to put my name on the dog. Shortly after that he won his first National. The assessment that the dog was superb was confirmed by the sum total of his show record. He was a Best in Show dog who won the Breed at the Giant Schnauzer Club of America National Specialty three times, under Ric Chashoudian, Edd Biven and Klaus Anselm. He also won numerous Awards of Merit at Nationals, Regionals and at Westminster. By any objective measure (not just my private assessment) he was an outstanding dog. Yet he was not remotely the sire we’d hoped for.

As an import and an outcross he produced such a range of phenotypes that breeders had great difficulty using him effectively.

One lesson to take away is that it is not enough to think you have a superb example of the breed, and it is not enough to have your assessment that you “have a superb example of the breed” challenged objectively in the conformation show ring, you must have a superb example of the breed that is ALSO bred to produce… and even then, you need bitches who compliment the dog both phenotypically and genotypically. The only breeders I have ever known who have been able to pull off that Hat Trick successfully are breeders with decades of experience in their breed. The breeder of Multi BIS, Multi BISS CH Galilee’s Pure Of Spirit - the #1 dog in the country All-Breed in 2008 - is such a breeder, but she has been at it breeding superb quality for decades.

[bmgillespie]

Actually I have researched these dogs and of course I will have to wait and see how they develop and make necessary adjustments. I do not know if you think I plan to mix the breeds but I do not. I ahve also ask several breeders about the combination of pedigrees and they mostly agree that the combinations I plan on are good choices, health wise, character wise, etc. All dogs will be evaluated and health checked before I breed. They will be shown in IABC shows several times because I like the way the shows are handled because you get an evaluation of your dog from the judge not just a point. I have had Dobermans for about 30 years now and I trust my judgement on the basics. Even though all of them are Champion bred they will not be show dogs only, I am breeding for conformation "Euro Style" but more for work / protection. And all of there parents have these qualities. I plan to stay with all Itailian lines with a mixture of Russian outcross when needed. I have done a lot of research on this and this seems to be a great combination for what I am looking for. It has been proven through a lot of dogs over the years and I plan to keep it going but here in the states. So I am really not going out of the box but actually stayong with what seems to be working well just not here in the states.

[Elaine]

I am breeding for conformation "Euro Style"


Seems to me the goal is to breed to produce a sound well constructed dog that conforms to a breed standard (either AKC or FCI). A sound correct dog is sound a correct dog... and a good Doberman is good for the breed as a whole.

What exactly do you mean by “Euro style” dogs? Do you have photos of your ideal Doberman… i.e. photos of the phenotype that you are breeding for… or examples of dogs bred by breeders you want to emulate?

As you are no doubt aware, that phrase "Euro Style” is used a lot by puppy mill breeders and congers up visions of coarse over-done dogs with flat feet, roachy top lines, steep croups, low tail sets and overregulated rears, that set down like German Sheppard’s… but with high prey drive. :)

[bmgillespie]

Sorry for wrong term, I should say FCI standard. Here are pictures of what I look to achevive in a male and female.

[bmgillespie]

here are other pups sires. The male above is FerroFarah Gomez di Campovalano. The males pictured here are Urbano del Diamante Nero & Zordan Zewi del Citone. Ferro & Urbano are considered top producers in Europe and Zordan is current World Champ as well as AIAD & IDC champion. He is also already off to becoming a top producer. His progeny are doing vey well in show & work as are the other two. So I did a little research and not just for show.

[bmgillespie]

One last post which are two of my favorite two American males which are Agador & Jager. I recently sold a son of Jager who looked almost identical to him. I really like these two but as you can see they are very different.

[Elaine]

Sorry for wrong term, I should say FCI standard. Here are pictures of what I look to achevive in a male and female.

Hey thanks for these photos… It is not easy to accurately judge a dog from a photo… for that matter, it is not easy to get a photo that accurately depicts the dog. There are clearly some nice things about these dogs… though I’d love to see them standing on their own and not straining at the end of a lead (which shows them as having receding toplines, and throws off their croups, tail sets and their rears.

Never quite understood what the heck is the point of showing a dog that way... straining at the end of a lead, but then I guess these folks must wonder what the heck we’re doing with what looks like our hand shoved up our dog's ...

For an easy comparison of our dogs vs theirs I’d love to either see the dog in person… or have one designated handler standing in front of each dog, with the dog on a loose lead.

So tell us, what is your assessment of the first two dogs… how would you describe them in terms of their overall structure, their strengths and their faults?

[bmgillespie]

First about the showing I think both ways are a little strange we hold our dogs head stretched and they hold theirs stretched out. My favorite thing about the Euro Style is their head & jaw stucture much more defined and a lot stronger in their bite. I also like the muscle mass and pure strength. I have owned both and it is not even close as for the drive I think that is a dog by dog thing. My last American male had incredible drive for work & play. As I said I plan to go into the working area more than the show arena. I am going to show to have various opinions of what I have because as we all know we tend to not see things in our own dogs :). It is funny that you mentioned the way they hshowtheir dogs because my friends ver there ask me why we look like we are choking ours:). Do not get me wrong I am not a Euro vs American person. I changed because of the venue I plan to pursue. I also am not going to breed for profit, I am going to start my own little organization called Boys & Dogs to help at risk youth by giving them something to take care of and something to love and love them back. I beleive it will give them some responsibilty and showthem that it is not easy totake care of a puppy let alone a baby. I think this and give them somethingthat will fill that void that makes them join gangs for love or attention.

[Elaine]

It is funny that you mentioned the way they hshowtheir dogs because my friends ver there ask me why we look like we are choking ours:).
Re the impression we are choking our dogs.. my response to such a comment would be to ask the person to take a show lead, put it on their dog and choke the dog, even for a second. Observe the reaction. Observe that a dog being choked responds immediately, probably by spinning backwards and away from the handler, while coughing and making it obvious to the whole world that he/she is uncomfortable.

Then I would ask the person to go stand ringside at an AKC show and tell me if they see that kind of reaction in the ring.

We are not choking the dogs in the AKC ring… possibly a complete novice who had no experience with dogs what-so-ever might form that impression, but not someone who has any experience with dogs. The contact in the ring should be light and sensitive… much like the contact between a rider and the bit in a dressage horse's mouth. Excessive force produces the wrong result.

[bmgillespie]

I explained exactly that to him:). I am also a trained handler but do not participate in that area anymore. He did not mean that we were but that it looks that way becuase of the way it looks. He has never attended a American show.

[Lashelle]

I Also am new to this Forum. I also have never owned a doberman!! So I don't know much about oversea Vs American. However If I were going to show it would be where they give you a written assessment of your dog vs just points. I love the idea of helping youth boys with your program! Good luck and much success.

[bmgillespie]

Lashelle,
thank you for you r well wished for my program. I have owned Dobermans forover thirty years on & off. though.

[andyhilt27]

Hey if you want to speak to someone about blending the two "types" talk to Doug at Kansa Dobermans or Ray at Caradobes.

Some might not agree with this but I will say it anyway.:D The South American lines seem to be a happy median between the two. Bone, heads, dentention etc...I have heard that some of the SA lines have problems with dentention but I have no experience with that. Eva, my Inaqui girl, has all of her choppers and they are nice. Her bone is great and I love her underjaw, which is probably borderline of being too doggy. She has a nice head as well. Her drive is great. I have seen her be timid once. The first day I got her. She was a bit scared of a golden....she was only three months old though. Since then....nothing. She is very obedient so long as you are asking her to do something she approves of.:D

[Elaine2]

Welcome to DSNN Bryant. Sorry for the delay. I have been kept a bit preoccupied by Quincy this week.
All of your Dobes look lovely. Ah the puppy stage. I miss it and I don't all at the same time.
E2

[doberdogsfd]

Welcome to DSNN Ella, Craig and of course Lily Mae!
You will find a wonderful span of knowledge, experience and opinion on this forum. Look forward to your input!

Glad to have you on board and give "The Caped Crusader" a hug and kiss for me!

Cheryl

[Betty]

Welcome Ela, Craig and sweet Lily Mae! Happy to have you aboard.. 'Will look forward to your input, and of course, more pictures of "The Caped Crusader".

Betty

[Minaz Cassum]

Catching up rather late, as usual, due to time constraints, heres welcoming new members to DSNN.

Bryant expresses his penchant for Dobermanns like Ferrofarah & Zordan - the Euro Dobermanns in the modern era. The first named is one of the most successful Dobermanns in Europe both in the ring - IDC & AIAD Sieger - and as a prepotent sire having numerous top class progeny to his credit.

Perhaps the most successful amalgamation of the two 'types' must surely be attributed to the two legends in the Dobermann world - Ray Carlisle and Mary Rodgers.

Cara's I'm the Gambler is a prime example, having as his sire Electra's Windwalker (Beaulane Windfall x Electra's Rally Round The Flag) and his dam, the amazing Alida v Flandrischen Lowen, who was perhaps the most influential dam in Dobermann history. The Gambler's litter sister Rotkappchen v d Cara was born in the USA and exported to Germany and focused International interest on the benefits of complete out crossing, using outstanding specimens from two different gene pools. The mating was done to evaluate the effects of hybrid vigour in correcting or improving any ingrained problems that became more difficult to escape when locked into domestic gene pools. She was the first American bred dog to earn a German Championship title.

Marienburg's Morocco was the result of crossing the best bloodlines out of the USA & Holland and the son of Dexter vom Franckhorst (Arrow vom Harrosberg x Vivre Vivien vom Franckenhorst) out of Marienburg's Hollyhawk. Dexter, of course, was an influential sire having as his get Morocco, Brude Teller of Tales, Marienburg's Captive Heart amongst others.

There are surely several other examples of the successful marriage of Dobermanns on either side of the continent and the breed can only benefit by such alliances.

Having admired such Dobermanns like Dictator, Dolph von Tannenwald, Steb's Top Skipper, Kafka (so many to name) that in the early 90s, I acquired two girls grand sired by the redoubtable Int Ch Quorry di Campovalano ScH III, through his son Alban von Nassau Oranien (Germany). Both girls were winners here and carried on the great work in the whelping box as well.

European Dobermanns, such as Baron Nike Renewal, Gino Gomes del Citone, Gamon di Campovalano, Alfa del Citone, are known to pass on their great heads, rich deep tan markings and good bone/substance.

Just a few random thoughts on this subject.

Cheers.

Minaz Cassum
Firecrest K-9s
Pune - India

[doberdogsfd]

Bob and I just want to welcome the Good Doctor aka / Lee to the DSNN family.

Lee has been a good friend for some time and is one of our puppy owners.
He has Blackwood's Dark Gift aka / Talia, which you may have seen on the litter's thread graduating from her first obedience course.

Bob and I expect we will see lot's more of those certificates on Lee's walls. He has enrolled her in an other course with Phyliss and seems to be enjoying the working side of this.
We are of course thrilled that Talia has such a commited human and such a bright and happy future!

Cheryl and Bob

[Sheila]

Welcome Lee and congrats on Talia passing her first obedience course.

Sheila and Wei (Talia's auntie)