Why????????????

[bmgillespie]

Showing Question?
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Hello everyone,
I have a question that I could not figure out and hope the people who have shown dogs that are champions can give mesome insight. I would like to know why people with dogs like Gallie Pure of Spirit, Agador,etc.basically I am saying dogs that have won eevry title they can and then do not win at the two big shows keep showing their dogs? I can see showing around the local area but these type dogs travel all over the country which I know has to cost a lot of money. I just could not see continuing to spend that type of money on a dog who is already proven great. Why not start or finish a few more instead. I also think the AKC should start another categoryfor these typesof dogs becuase when they show up at these small shows they are normally going towin and not always because they are the best dogs but becuase who they are and I do not think it is fair to the other dogs and chases away people like myself from the show arena. I mean some judges do not even bother looking at the dogs but just give these dogs win after win. Let me know what you think?
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[Elaine]

Showing Question?
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Hello everyone,
I have a question that I could not figure out and hope the people who have shown dogs that are champions can give mesome insight. I would like to know why people with dogs like Gallie Pure of Spirit, Agador,etc.basically I am saying dogs that have won eevry title they can and then do not win at the two big shows keep showing their dogs? I can see showing around the local area but these type dogs travel all over the country which I know has to cost a lot of money. I just could not see continuing to spend that type of money on a dog who is already proven great. Why not start or finish a few more instead. I also think the AKC should start another categoryfor these typesof dogs becuase when they show up at these small shows they are normally going towin and not always because they are the best dogs but becuase who they are and I do not think it is fair to the other dogs and chases away people like myself from the show arena. I mean some judges do not even bother looking at the dogs but just give these dogs win after win. Let me know what you think?
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First of all, Agador and Sprit are not in the same class.

I have no idea what they are doing with Spirit, but she is extraordinary, she is the top winning Giant in the history of her bred; she may be at the peak of her career, and may have a credible chance at All-Breed #1 or a Westminster BIS in the future. A Giant like Spirit is a once in a lifetime dog who can be All-Breed #1 when being pushed hard by the Pointer... who was also a very good dog. The reason to keep her out would be the assessment that she is still very competitive. When you have the kind of money these backers have, and have had the success that Spirit has had, it is an easy decision to keep a good dog out there. Backers are typically not breeders and they are only interested in owning a winning dog. Often the dog goes back to the breeder when the show career is over. e.g., I think Tristan went back to Sylvia when she was through. Dreamer did... many specials do.. that is often the agreement. Sometimes the backer gives the dog to the handler (if there is a bond)... but most backers have no interest in breeding. When one dog's career is over, they look for the next top dog... could even be a different breed. Roger Reichler's last great Special was the Akita bitch ...and he was Grandeur (Triumph and Tryst, etc).

Agador was out for a long time, at a time when there was not much else out there, he won, but never had the acclaim of all-round dog people or of breeders... and has not proven to be much of a sire. Keeping Agador out long past his time (allowing him to be beat by lesser dogs) must have made sense because there was not much else to do with him.

[bmgillespie]

Thank you Elaine for the reply but Spirt is the #1 dog are you talking about all-time or just for the year. Also as you mentioned the backers is that why Bill Cosby brought Dandie?

[Elaine]

I haven’t a clue why Bill backed the Dandie… we are not phone buddies.:) If I had to guess, it would be that Bill and his long time partner Jean Heath must have loved the dog. Cosby seems to like to back good dogs, often dogs that Jean has bred. I’ve forgotten Jean’s kennel name (might be Blackwatch), it’s been a while since I’ve seen them special a dog of Jean’s breeding, but over the years there have been some. I think they have a Lakeland out that was bred by Lance and Tracy Deloria (Lance started Titan, Tungsten, Warkant, Wahajama … and showed Brentina).

I vaguely recall that the Dandie was from Australia and went back when he was done being specialed. I don’t remember how they found the dog… maybe Bill McFadden found it. Cosby and Jean have been partners forever, they must love the thrill of showing at the top of the sport, whether it’s a dog they bred or one they simply back for a while. Clay Cody used to show for them, then Clay retired and Bill McFadden stepped in … Jean and Bill have had one great Terrier after another (though the great Kerry Blue that McFadden showed, Ch. Torums Scarf Michael, that went BIS at Crufts and at the Garden, was not backed by Cosby).

Sprit was the #1 dog All-Breed for 2008 and I believe that she is the #1 Giant of All-Time. She is shown by Taffy McFadden, The record in Giants that Spirit beat was set by Taffy's husband Bill McFadden with the bitch Tristan a.k.a. CH. Skansen's Tristan. (I think that Tristan's backer Marilu Hansen was also the backer of the great Kerry Blue Ch Torum's Scarf Michael.) I believe that Tristan went back to the ranch when she was done being shown (i.e., she went back to her breeder, Sylvia Hammarstrom's ranch in Sebastopol, California).

As for the All Breed All Time Top Winning Dogs... I used to be able to rattle this list off and the number of BIS they had... but I forgotten some of the dogs, their number of wins and their rankings. I haven't looked at the list in years. There have been some heavily campaigned dogs in the past 6-8 years that have probably impacted this list quite a bit... many recent Specials have had over 100 BIS. I would be surprised if Kafka was still on the list of All TIme All Breed Top Ten. Anyway, off the top of my head, and I will need help here... but I think it is:

1. Ch Altana's Mystic (GSD) 275 All Breed BIS (not sure where she retired to, her backer Jane Firestone died shortly before Mystic was retired)

2. Ch. Covy Tucker Hill's Manhattan (GSD) 225 All Breed BIS (Jane Firestone also backed this dog, he was out years before Mystic, I think he retired to live with Jane, but I am not sure... as I recall, he was sterile)

3. Ch Braeburn's Close Encounter (Scottie) 220 (I think Shannon retired to live with her handler.)

4. Ch. Registry's Lonesome Dove (Wire Fox Terrier) 219 Not sure where Lacey ended up. Maybe with her handler Mike Kemp, but I do not think the Lawrence's ended up with her. Btw, Sam and Marion Lawrence also backed Ch. Brunswig's Cryptonite and the Cocker Ch. LaShay's Bart Simpson and other top winning dogs... maybe even a Maltese.

5. i forget

6. Ch. Brunswig's Cryptonite (Doberman) 121 All Breed BIS (Kafka retired to live with his handler, his semen was a hot item... for years he was also the top Doberman sire of All Time, with something like 130 champions... until his grandson Ch. Cambria's Cactus Cash (a.ka. Eddie) overtook the mark with something like 150 champions. Eddie had many more breedings in his stud career than his grandpa Kafka. It is very unusual for a Top Winning dog to also be a Top- Producing dog. No dog and certainly no Doberman has ever come close to Kafka's dual record as a show dog and as a sire of champions or to his influence in the breed. Kafka is by far and away unique. In contrast, Eddie did not have any Specials career to speak of. )

7.

8.

9.

10.

Matt and Gene at Dog News would know the current list... we could all give them a call... but they are probably at Crufts.

[bmgillespie]

Not that serious, I was just wondering what was the point to continue to show a dog who has reached their peak even if you have the bucks. Again I say why not start another 1,23, etc. A champion is a champion and there will always be another one after you are done. However you did answer my question as to why Cosby and the likes do what they do. Seems a bit lazy to me. I respect Linda & John with Agador a lot more than these other people, they bred and took their dog to the top, it has to be alot more rewarding and the way I would rather do it (though I would not stay with one dog that long) because if I were that interested in the show world my goal would be to see how many Champions I could make not how many times could I make the same dog win. If he or she is the best and you paid for it then move on. Breed them andse if they truly are great dogs. Great dogs are those who can reproduce great dogs i.e "Eddie" in the U.S. Just my way of looking at it.

[Elaine]

Not that serious, I was just wondering what was the point to continue to show a dog who has reached their peak even if you have the bucks. Again I say why not start another 1,23, etc. A champion is a champion and there will always be another one after you are done. However you did answer my question as to why Cosby and the likes do what they do. Seems a bit lazy to me. I respect Linda & John with Agador a lot more than these other people, they bred and took their dog to the top, it has to be alot more rewarding and the way I would rather do it (though I would not stay with one dog that long) because if I were that interested in the show world my goal would be to see how many Champions I could make not how many times could I make the same dog win. If he or she is the best and you paid for it then move on. Breed them andse if they truly are great dogs. Great dogs are those who can reproduce great dogs i.e "Eddie" in the U.S. Just my way of looking at it.

This is a forum for people who show dogs, so discussing the top show dogs of all time is always relevant. We should know what this sport is about, and that includes knowing about the Super Stars in the sport and how they came to be identified as Super Stars. At the very least, we should be aware of what the great dogs in our sport accomplished. Otherwise it would be a bit like criticizing great art without any understanding of it. There is so much more to the sport then many people realize. If you have the opportunity, spend some time with the great people in our sport, people like Bob and Jane Forsyth… or George Alston… or Edd Biven… take a clinic or two… attend a few judging education seminars… try to understand the sport on all levels. There is so much more to it then you will be able to grasp standing ringside. Criticism of our sport (or anything else for that matter) is most valuable if it is grounded in facts, knowledge and experience.

As for criticism of those who back great dogs as Specials, I guess it gets back to simply not understanding what Specialing a dogs is all about. Very few champions are good enough to go on to a specials career. Most of us are not breeding to chase some record number of champions. We’d like to take each dog we have as far as it can go. We value each individual dog… we are not interested in some high volume production line of dogs, especially in a breed like Dobermans, were good homes are a rarity and many communities want to ban the breed all together because they fear the stereotypical image of a Doberman.

Emphatically all champions are not equal.. that is the least true, least accurate thing one could say about the sport.

There are a lot of champions that are not necessarily even good dogs. A lot of champions should not be bred. I can’t think of anyone who wants to chase the “I’ve bred the most champions” thing… who cares? For many of us, the goal is to produce a dog that is so superb he/she is a competitive special i.e. a dog that is more than just a champion, rather the dog is good enough to be All Breed Top Winning. In some breeds being a champion doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot because the competition in the breed is so weak. For example, in Giant Schnauzers, four dogs is a 3 pt major in most parts of this country. It's not that difficult to be the best out of four!!! A Giant like Spirit probably finished her first weekend out. Finishing the championship was never the goal.

The goal is to produce a dog that is so extraordinary that it can be All Time All Breed Top Winning. That was Linda’s goals with Agador.. it is Marrianne's goal with Spirit, it is the goal of serious, knowledgeable, experienced breeders. Success requires that the breeder understand all levels of breeding… and showing. That, in and of itself is rare. Specialing a dog usually involves finding a backer with deep pockets… it usually means that the breeder / original owner looses a bit of control over the dog for a time, and ( to tie it back to the thread about kennel names on a dog) it is one reason a breeder would want to have their kennel name on the dogs they breed.