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Elaine
06-01-2009, 05:05 PM
My worst co-owners were two woman from almost twenty years ago. (I’ve forgotten their names, may have been Doris and Candy. Marge Brooks knew them, she would remember their names.) They had a Giant Schnauzer bitch I liked. Far as I recall, Doris and Candy were partners, but not related. They were breeders of a litter that I purchased a male from. I paid the deposit on “pick male” before the breeding was ever done. Big mistake! Faye Straus (supposedly a friend of Doris’ and Candy’s ) was supposed to grade the litter. For some reason Faye never did, not exactly sure why, she may never have intended to, anyway I ended up with a male picked by Doris, not Faye. At 6 months he was a dear boy, but not show quality (and in Giants, “show quality” is a pretty easy mark to hit). At 6 months I really liked his littermate sister.

I called Doris, said I wanted to buy the littermate bitch, and that I would send her to Vicky Fillinger (now Seiler) to show. Doris and Candy agreed to sell the bitch, but only on a co-ownership, and they insisted that I use a handler named Jeri Lethcoe instead of Vicky. I responded that I did not know Lethcoe; I knew Vicky very well, trusted and admired her, she was already showing for me, Vicky did an excellent job in Giants, had an excellent reputation, she was arguably the #1 Giant handler in the country at the time… "Why would we use Lethcoe?”

Doris said that she knew Lethcoe very well, that Lethcoe was an excellent handler, who would take excellent care of the bitch and that it was a package deal, if I wanted the bitch, I had to use Lethcoe.

I said “no.”

Rule # 567: Go with your first instinct.

Over a weekend I got to thinking about how much I wanted the bitch. “How bad could this Lethcoe be? After all, if Doris vouched for Lethcoe, why let it keep me from going forward? "Vicky was on a circuit at the time (this was before everyone used cell phones all the time), so I could not get a hold of Vicky to discuss Lethcoe. And Sylvia Hammerstrom was not the breeder of the litter, so I did not think to call Sylvia about Lethcoe. Another big mistake.


I called Doris back and agreed to buy the bitch. I purchased her in early February. Her name was Classic. The co-ownership deal was pretty heavily one-sided, it included $3K up front, puppies back. I would special Classic and would pay 100% of all show expenses on her. I even agreed to advertise Doris and Candy’s kennel in all advertisements of Classic. As I recall, Doris (the much older of the two woman) presented me with a 5-page contract (which proved to be utterly useless, as most contracts are). Doris wanted Classic shown on the Louisville Circuit (we all lived in the Pacific Northwest at the time). Ms. Lethcoe wanted $2,000 up front, plus she wanted Classic sent immediately (about 3 weeks before the Louisville Cluster, where Classic was to make her ring debut), so that Lethcoe could work with Classic and get Classic’s coat in shape. I sent Classic to Lethcoe ($1,000 in air fare) and I sent the $2,000 up front for the Louisville shows. I even purchased airline tickets for Doris to fly to Louisville to see Classic shown ($1,000). The airline ticket was not a gift, Doris was going to pay me back. (skipping ahead in this story, in all Doris paid me back nothing, ever.)

About a week later, on a leisurely Sunday afternoon, I got a series of calls from Doris, frantic, saying that I had to get to whatever show grounds Lethcoe was at, and retrieve Classic and Hawk.

"Who the heck is Hawk?"

For the sake of brevity, it turned out that Doris and Lethcoe had worked out a deal where Lethcoe would over-charge me so much for Classic’s handling and expenses that I would actually be paying for Lethcoe to finish dogs for Doris and Candy. So Hawk was Doris and Candy’s dog, who was also with Lethcoe.

"Where the heck is Lethcoe?"

'We don’t know."

"Why do I have to get Classic and Hawk back from her?"

"Because she is a crook, about to be suspended by the AKC for life for showing a dead dog. She steals her clients dogs, she even breeds client’s dogs and registers the puppies as being from out of bitches she owns."

"How can you show a dead dog?"

“He’s dead, frozen, in the freezer… he’s been dead for months.”

Later I found out that Lethcoe had a client's dog die while he was with her. Lethcoe “finished” the dog by taking a finished champion in the ring in the dead dog's place. The owners of the dog lived on the other side of the country. No one standing ringside had a clue what the dog actually looked like. Think about it, who on earth would know which dog goes in the ring with a handler at a show somewhere? Lethcoe continued to bill the dog’s owners for handling fees, board, expenses, etc, after he had died. She billed them for “finishing” the dog and then, just before he was to be sent home, she told the owners that he had just died. The owners contacted the vet who said, “That dog died months ago, I’ve been keeping him in my freezer.” The owners went to the AKC. Lethcoe was caught dead-handed. Sometime in early January Lethcoe had worked out a deal with AKC that her suspension would start March 1st. The Louisville Cluster started approximately March 9th.


"Where do you think Lethcoe is today?"

'Don’t know.'

I hung up and called Vicky’s then husband Kirk, thinking that he may know how to get a hold of Vicky, and she may know where Lethcoe was. (This was years before the internet.. it was easy to loose track of where in the country a given handler was.)

Kirk was wonderful, but just as alarming about Lethcoe. Short version, Vicky and even Kirk knew about Lethcoe’s upcoming AKC suspension and her reputation. I called Hammerstrom, she had even more horror stories, one involving Lethcoe setting fire to a motor home to collect the insurance money. And yes, the dead dog, stealing dogs and breeding client’s bitches were all true as far as Vicky, Kirk and Sylvia knew. Lethcoe was bad news. I needed to get Classic back immediately.

As icing on the cake, turns out the Lethcoe was traveling with her husband Pep, and he was reportedly a violent man. Lethcoe was at some shows in Dothan, Alabama; we lived outside of Seattle, Washington. Everyone agreed that if Lethcoe got back to her home in Iowa with our dogs, we would likely never see Classic or Hawk again. Geographically Dothan is about as far from Seattle as you can get.

"Swell."

At the time my daughter Stephanie was two years old. My then husband Sam was a quiet man, a fiercely devoted father, who’s private passion was the martial arts. There was no time to get a babysitter, and Sam would not let me go alone.

It was now about 5:00 p.m. PST. There was literally one flight out of Seattle that night that connected through Dallas, on to Atlanta, and then to a series of smaller planes… that might get us to Dothan, Alabama by 9:00 am the following morning. The flight left in an hour and a half. SeaTac airport was 45 minutes from our home. The last minute air fare for the three of us was over $8,000. Annoyingly, even paying full fare, there were no first class seats available, so Sam, Steph and I sat in coach.. for $8,000 (eight thousand dollars).

I called Doris, told her what it was going to cost, that we had to leave for the airport immediately and that there was a chance we would not find Lethcoe in time. Doris said she would reimburse me for the flights, “Just get Classic and Hawk back from that crook.”

By some miracle, we made the flight. Naïve as I may be, even I start to pick up on things. Somewhere between Dallas and Atlanta I light went off. On the lay over in Atlanta I got Doris on the phone, “ How do you know when Lethcoe’s AKC suspension starts? “

“She told us.”

When?

“In January at the Portland shows.”

That was before I purchased Classic!!! The time-line here is that in January Doris knew that Lethcoe was being suspended by AKC for life, starting March 1st, and yet she let me send Classic to Lethcoe in February, for shows that started March 9th. In fact, Doris insisted I send Classic to Lethcoe, it was a condition of the co-ownership. :mad: It's not possible to strangle someone over the phone, and it'd be illegal if it were. :cool:

This was one of those times that God was watching out for his innocent creatures (Classic and Hawk). Sam, Steff and I surprised Pep and Jeri Lethcoe just as they were checking out of their hotel. Their van was full of dogs, at first they tried to say they were in too much of a hurry to get our dogs out of the van. After traveling all night, Sam was in no mood for anymore crap. There is something in the eye contact of a man who means business that connects; it is visceral connection; Pep got it! But heck at that point even little Steph was pissed, she probably gave Pep the "evil eye" too. :p We got Hawk and Classic back from them. As I recall, not all owners were so lucky.

Both Classic and Hawk were thin and filthy. Hawk had blowing diarrhea. I paid for his vet bills and to fly him to Doris when he was well. Both Hawk and Classic recovered. When I got home safely with Hawk and Classic, Doris told me I should chalk it all up to experience. To say that I told her to go to hell does not really begin to cover the fireworks. In the end she signed off of Classic’s papers. Within a few years Lethcoe was dead, and Doris and Candy had gotten into a huge fight with each other and were out of dogs.

andyhilt27
06-03-2009, 10:11 AM
Wow. I was curious if there were ever an instance where the dog being shown was just a stunt double. Ahhhh, this brings me to a new business idea. That's all I can say for now. I'll remember all of the little people when I make ONE MILLION DOLLARS.


see my new thread on "Breeder relations feeding PETA's agenda?" for an interesting outlook on breeder relations.

Elaine
06-04-2009, 08:16 PM
Wow. I was curious if there were ever an instance where the dog being shown was just a stunt double. Ahhhh, this brings me to a new business idea. That's all I can say for now. I'll remember all of the little people when I make ONE MILLION DOLLARS.

RE: using shills in the ring, I would not be surprised if it happens more then we know, but (because of the internet) probably less now then a few years ago. If you check the back of the AKC Gazette you will be able to see how often people get caught doing this sort of thing now a days.

Years ago there was a famous German Sheppard handler (and no, not Jimmy Moses) who was accused of switching dogs. There was an AKC Trial Board, that I believe ended in an acquittal.

You can imagine how tempting it would be for an unscrupulous handler to keep a finished champion around ready to go in the ring as “Biffy.” In fact, Lethcoe was actually showing Hawk and supposedly he had take a major the Sunday before we got there. We arrived at about 9:00 a.m., Hawk was filthy, not stripped, caked with feces, with blowing diarrhea and very thin. In my opinion there is no way in hell he was the best in the ring the day before in a major entry. I always thought that Lethcoe had simply shown a ringer.

doberdogsfd
06-09-2009, 07:59 PM
I am going to touch on this worst co-ownership topic.

I am a tad behind in posting to some of these topics I find very interesting.
Work, the puppies..work again..the damn grass!

I have had the ability to co-own a few dogs with a few different people. Each person teaches you a different thing.

Flex's co-owners were like Mom and Dad and helped me to understand what it was like to have a highly competitive and special dog. What handlers were the right ones for him and why, the ins and outs of the show ring and how important it is to be selective about the bitches you allow him to breed.
Like Mom and Da, they also were a royal pain in the butt on occasions! Looking back on them and being able to review what they taught me about dog showing , it was a hugely valuable relationship and one I value more today then I did then. Thank you to the Finns!

Elaine and Arthur are a cut above and have been great to co-own Vaako with.
All relationships have their challenges. What you find out is exactly how deep and strong those relationships are once you reach the other side.
They have given Bob and I a wonderful template to form our own co-ownerships with our puppies owners off of.

Now, the worst co-ownership. Well we have certainly been in that!

Co-ownership is a partnership, one of support from the breeder that co-owns that puppy with the folks that house, love, feed, worry about and commits x-amount financially to the puppy.
Control, manipulation, lies, bad mouthing and backstabbing are not part of it.

The co-owner does not tell a grown person they have no say in what happens.
They do not tell anyone who gets involved with the other person, they will be ruined or taken down. Give me a break! Where are you taking them....to lunch?

Most of all the person should have a clear understanding of the AKC rules and regs before they think they can flex on others. It just makes one look pretty stupid and most of all....really wrong! ;)

The partnership is a unique one and one that should be built on trust, integrity and honor.
We will always try and role model that to our puppy owners we co-own with.

Cheryl

Elaine
06-10-2009, 06:08 AM
Many of us have horror stories of co-ownership. Details can vary slightly, but the classic GVCC (Garden Variety Crappy Co-Ownership) usually involves the breeder simply screwing the co-owner blind. Eventually the co-owner gets to the point where they've had enough and esssentially says, “Ahh, no, you are not getting away with that.” Then all hell breaks loose. I had a GVCC in Lhasa Apsos about 30 years ago, and if you check with the AKC, this happens all too often. The scenario usually goes like this:

There is a long standing friendship going back years and on many levels, often beyond just the dogs.

At some point in time, the breeder does the co-owner a favor by “giving” them Bippy. Of course, the co-owner tries to pay for Bippy, which evokes the response “Oh no, you’ve done so much for me, this is the least I can do for you. ”

There is no CONTRACT on Bippy defining any rights that the breeder retained. The breeder stayed on the AKC papers in name only and basically said, “She is yours.” The breeder actually doesn’t think much of Bippy at the time he/she enters into the co-ownership. The co-owner is simply someone to house and pay the bills on the dog. The breeder expresses little or no interest in Bippy.

Bippy turns out better than expected.

The co-owner has paid every bill on Bippy, shows her and eventually decides to breed her, essentially attempting to reap some benefit and enjoyment from having loved, fed and housed Bippy for years.

The Breeder suddenly realizes they have let a good dog go, and worse still, they have lost control of the situation. Now all of a sudden the breeder wants to assert all sorts of veto control and rights which they never retained. Quite rightly the co-owner says, "Hey wait a minute, let's slow down here and talk this through, that was never our agreement." The breeder is used to being demanding and getting their way, they go ballistic. This most always starts with threats to the co-owner (where the now fed-up co-owner stands their ground and tells the breeder to stop acting like a neurotic willful child), and evolves into the breeder being on the phone all night, gossiping about the co-owner /former friend, threatening to “ruin the co-owner” sending threatening (idiotic) letters, or having some low-rent free attorney send the idiotic letters (which only makes things worse for the breeder). There are two operative words: drama and threats; there are lots of both from the breeder. And for the most part, the breeder stays out of the bright light of day. Every defamatory claim about the co-owner is made behind the co-owner’s back, so there is no chance for the co-owner to call the breeder out on all the bs flying around. God forbid the breeder stand in the bright light of day and actually be held accountable for what they say and do.

The breeder generates some concocted version of reality, portraying themselves as the victim. Some people actually buy into the breeder's crap and take sides, without ever contacting the co-owners for a balanced version of what the heck is going on.

More often than not the breeder is a complete moron, who has not got a leg to stand on, hasn’t bothered to read the AKC Rules and Regulations, often because they live in such a fantasy world where they do as they please, actual AKC Rules and Regs. are a cold slap in the face.

The breeder never has the graciousness to say, “Hey, I was a complete jack ass, I am wrong. I am sorry.” Rather, the more foolish the breeder looks, the more they dig in, the more the breeder gossips, pathetically trying to claim some ethical high ground, when the truth is that they do not have the facts, the law, the AKC Rules and Regs or any moral high ground to stand on, though this is apparently not a concept they can grasp. As they fade into oblivion, they are still whining, sort of like the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz, "I'm melting!!"

All these kinds of breeders really have is their Midnight Phone Tree Gossip Mill, and all they generate is the lasting enmity of co-owners. I think therapy and some sort of SSRI like Prozac is about the only effective solution for these kinds of breeders.

bmgillespie
06-10-2009, 08:11 AM
Wow!