Talk to me about GOOD Shoulders

[Elaine]

I think it is useful to have a dialogue about structure, in part because verbalizing what we think we know challenges us to be more precise and clear, which can only help us in evaluating what we are seeing.

Abe has been asking about good shoulders, I was responding to him privately and thought it might be worth discussing here, so that we all have input into what we see and believe. I am not expert… this is an open dialogue from which we will all benefit.

It is very important to understand a good shoulder assembly, if only so that as breeders we will recognize it when we see it and value what we are seeing for the generations to come. But “good shoulders” are not one thing/one aspect, or even half a dozen things or half a dozen aspects of conformation. Good shoulders are a complex myriad of structure and musculature that work as a whole in the living dog. Parts and proportions are all relative, and there is always conditioning and how the dog uses himself/herself.

Good shoulders are reflected in good movement, and “good movement” varies from breed to breed and species to species. Ultimately we need to understand all of it to truly understand any of it. A good moving Scottish Deerhound is not the same as a good moving Old English Sheepdog, Dachshund or Bulldog. Ideally we need to understand and appreciate why.

I should start by saying that we need to see a living animal as a whole; it is not useful to pick apart pieces, the structural parts of a dog/horse/chicken/ snake/ fish/etc. are all interrelated. We should look at how the component parts work as a whole.

First and foremost, we must understand that everything hangs from the spine. All dogs have the same number of vertebrae. It is the length and proportion of those vertebrae that distinguish breeding/show quality from non-breeding /non-show quality.

Working from the head to the rear of the dog, I want to see a dog with a good arch at the crest of the neck, which is a function of the cervical vertebrae. Moving further along, I want long thoracic vertebrae that slope toward the rear of the dog, allowing for good muscle attachment, which will control the front assembly.

“Smooth” is the operative word.

In simplest terms, for a "good shoulder assembly” I want a long scapula and a proportionally long upper arm that sets well under the dog. The scapula, when viewed from above, should be smoothly laid-on. When viewed from the front, the dogs ribcage should be well sprung, but oval. The scapula and upper arm should be smoothly attached. When viewed from the side, the neck should widen noticeably at the withers, reflecting a scapula that is well laid-back (i.e., as broad as possible if measured from the forward projection of the sternabrae to the rearward edge of the scapula), and the upper arm should sit well under the dog, so that a perpendicular line dropped from the rear edge of the scapula would skim the back of the elbow. We can argue about whether 45 degrees is the optimum lay-back and the optimum angle of the shoulder joint, but some things are not debatable: the scalpel should be smoothly attached by long smooth muscles; the scapula ridge should align at about T3; T3 should be slightly prominent (certainly not below the upper tip of the scapula); and, the elbows should fit close to rib cage (which should be shaped to allow freedom of movement without any lateral popping).

When viewed from the side, the upper arm of the trotting dog should open, rather then appearing to swing from T3 and lift at the elbow. The movement desired in the Breed ring is actually at odds with the structure described in our breed standard. At a slower trot the dog will reach to the end of his nose… a well angulated dog moving out will reach beyond that point. Viewed from any angle there should be no lateral twisting at any joint, and no weakness or wasted movement as the leg bares weight.

Dogs are rear wheel drive vehicles, the engine is in the rear, the loin is the transmission and the front assembly is roughly equivalent to the wheels.

As breeders we need to focus on two things: we need to understand the phenotype of the dog standing in front of us; and we need to know what that dog will reproduce. Those are two separate things.

As breeders we need to be aware of certain realities, one is this: Mother Nature is often at odds with our Breed Standard and our breeding goals. Mother Nature has her idea of harmony, and we have our Breed standard, which are actually in conflict. (Smooth Fox Terriers are really a better example of this… as are Bull Terriers.) Skeletal proportions are all interrelated. A dog who is ideally “long” in one part, will often be long in other less desirable areas as well. That is Mother Nature’s idea of harmony, which makes a well-angulated but rectangular dog a relatively easy mark to hit as a breeder. For square breeds, getting the desired angles in a square package is a challenge. We have seen in Dobermans that some of our best shoulder assemblies come from dogs like Eddie (and his progeny), who are too long for our Breed Standard. Our Doberman Breed Standard calls for a well angulated square dog, and Mother Nature wants all those angles on a longer dog. As breeders we need the longer dogs because we will loose the desired angles if we loose them, but we should cherish well angulated square dogs like Dagger and some of his progeny, because they are rare jewels.

[Elaine]

To understand structure, we need to know the skeleton. It will not mean anything when I say, “there must be good return of the upper arm; the scapula is well laid-on, but not well laid- back, the back is weak, the loin connection is weak, the connection at the withers is weak” … if you do not understand which part of the dog I am speaking about and how the whole dog fits together.

I suggest a rather basic book, by Rachel Page Elliott, “Dogsteps: A New Look” which is very useful… you should have no trouble finding a copy… or order it here http://www.amazon.com/Dogsteps-New-Look-Rachel-Elliott/dp/0944875734/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244110578&sr=1-2

Quotins from Amazon’s page:

Product Description
This book presents understandable yet in-depth information on how dogs move, and how their conformation affects movement. The accompanying drawings illustrate and reinforce the author's written information on canine skeletal and muscular structure and how this anatomy affects gait.

About the Author
Rachel Page Elliott has long been one of America's most respected authorities on dog gait. Her studies using cineradiography (motion-picture X-ray) equipment at Harvard University's Museum of Comparative Zoology provide new insights on bone and joint motion in canines. Rachel has long been a breeder, exhibitor, and fancier of Golden Retrievers. In 1998, the ACK awarded her their Lifetime Achivement Award in the field of conformation--the first woman to be so honored.

[Janice McGerr]

E,

Like you said you need to understand the skeleton. I have seen dogs/bitches have nice angles in the shoulder and upper arm, but they have there neck stuck on (really ugly), usually because they are too far forward. I have also seen dogs/bitches with nice angles that are placed wrong (too far forward or too far back), we do not want no for chest and we do not want Dolly P. fronts.
I have not seen the prefect setup yet, but you can see some are trying to get it. I am going to use my Viper as an example I think you can cover allot of ground with his picture of straight, shoved forward and shoulder angle. So have at it girl, you are better than I am at explaining things.

[dobesign]

I really like an olllllllldddd book named "The dog in action" by McDowell Lyon. Another one, although it's rather new is named "an eye for a dog" by Robert Cole. Videos or seeing dog does help, but sometimes it helps to understand the physics and THEN see the movement because you might not distinguish what proper movement looks like. In example, about a decade ago, dobes had 'bicycle' movement in the rear. The hock would not open, and when viewed from the side, it appeared that the dog was forcibly powering its rear legs to the ground as if it needed an anchor so that it would not float away. This determined and powerful action was VERY flashy. They called it power strutting in Arizona at the time. Now we call it (and many have have throughout the whole genre) sickle hocks, which is not proper. When I was competing there, I did the 'i want a dog that wins and is flashy like that' thing, but my years in horses veered me away from a stupid move. In dobes right now, there is a trend for massive pro-sternum assemblies and dramatically short humerus (properly humeri, but we'll just say upper arms). These are out of proportion to the scapula and to the corresponding counterparts in the rear. The crabbing and wide fronts we see are not just because of a 'short back'. Another thing I have been seeing is this trend for a notch after the withers. It is poorly explicated, even on those blasted dpca here's a perfect dobe cards. For dogs that do other things than trot, (and mine do things like jump...on the bed, on me, on the sofa LOL) that notch is gonna be a problem. Don't believe me? Take a stack of pennies. Try to stack them vertically on a table. When you get about an inch up try off-setting the next pennies by 1/4 inch and keep stacking. In dogs, it's even worse because it's a horizontal column AND everything hangs on it. That notch is becoming more and more exaggerated. They are even putting it on shirts and ornaments. You should see the musculature origin on the dorsal surface. You should NOT see scoliosis or suprascapular dorsal projection. In my world I call that pre-emergent pathology because sooner or latre, it will be the site of injury. The projection of the pro-sternum and the need to suspend it exacerbates the problem on the topline. This now makes it a front assembly issue. Just my peeve...

[Elaine]

Here are links to the book Brenna mentions in her post above, which is widely considered to be a classic, and another (Hollenbeck) that is useful. Dog in Action: A Study of Anatomy and Locomotion As Applying to All Breeds (Paperback)
by McDowell Lyon http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Action-Anatomy-Locomotion-Applying/dp/1929242069/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244149315&sr=1-1

The Dynamics of Canine Gait: A Study of Motion (Hardcover) by Leon Hollenbeck http://www.amazon.com/Dynamics-Canine-Gait-Study-Motion/dp/0877140812/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244149445&sr=1-1
________________________________________

[andyhilt27]

books....yes, must buy books. Any photos in these books?

[Elaine]

About Lyon’s book, I believe it was first published in 1950, which is about 33 years before Ms. Elliott’s book, The New Dog Steps, which made use of cineradiography (moving x-rays) at Harvard University’s Museum of Comparative Zoology lab.

Up until Ms Elliott’s work at Harvard, most people and many breed standards claimed that a 45-degree slope of the shoulder blade was ideal. Lyons asserted this, in his Chapter 10 The Shoulder Blade pp 128-144. He grounded his assertions in simple visual observations, which we now know are not entirely accurate. Any of us who breed, show or simply observe canines quickly realize that a true 45-degree slope does not exist. I have never seen it, most certainly not in breeds like Dobermans, Great Danes or Giant Schnauzers.

Ms Elliott addresses this: “There is a human tendency to accept what appears in print as having withstood some incredible truth test. A case in point is the long held belief that a 45-degree slope of the shoulder blade is necessary for providing maximum extension or reach of the forelimb, and this is written into many breed standards. I have often wondered about the illusiveness of this ideal, for I have never found it myself, and it was not until given the opportunity to observe skeletal action through cineradiography that I realized why such a position would be a mechanical impossibility to the dog’s function. A 45-degree slant, or layback, would be workable if the blade were a stationary bone with a more or less fixed joint from which the upper arm moved forward and back. But this is not the case.

What we have failed to recognize is the great mobility of the shoulder blade as partner to the action of the upper arm, which serves as a lever in lifting and transporting the central body forward as smoothly as possible.

At a moderate trot, the blades swings from its upper rim with an excursion, lift and fall of about 30-degrees. At a gallop, the excursion is much greater. As the assembly lifts, it also swings inward, leaving the supporting role of the chest wall. If the motion began from a 45-degree position, the scapula would lift too high and the ‘medial component of the shoulder musculature would force the shoulder to bear directly on cervical structures.’ "
Elliot, page 63

[Elaine]

books....yes, must buy books. Any photos in these books? You really don't need to buy books, beg, borrow or steal them if need be, :D but reading them is useful to understanding what the heck showing and breeding is all about.:)

[Elaine]

E,

Like you said you need to understand the skeleton. I have seen dogs/bitches have nice angles in the shoulder and upper arm, but they have there neck stuck on (really ugly), usually because they are too far forward. I have also seen dogs/bitches with nice angles that are placed wrong (too far forward or too far back), we do not want no for chest and we do not want Dolly P. fronts.
I have not seen the prefect setup yet, but you can see some are trying to get it. I am going to use my Viper as an example I think you can cover allot of ground with his picture of straight, shoved forward and shoulder angle. So have at it girl, you are better than I am at explaining things.
Janice,

Not sure which of us is a bigger idiot, you for posting the photo or me for responding. You realize that the last time I commented about what was obvious in the photo of a dog posted on the internet, Cathy up and quit in an indignant huff. :rolleyes: I am not sure I want to loose you and Viper’s breeder too. :D

But you called and said it was okay, so here's what hits me immediately, Viper does not hang well from his spine (though, with different faults, my Classic Touch is a better example of this). Viper’s problems all start with his spine, I think they always do. We can’t x-ray him, and we don’t have x-ray eyes, but I would guess that his thoracic vertebrae are too short and too uptight. And there is too much undulation of the spine. Follow the line from his withers to the set on of his tail, he does not have a firm level topline. I can not put my hands on him, he may be tad out of shape (though he looks fit), but I can see the anticlinal vertebrae, and at that point we can clearly see a marked change in the topline (a rise in the lumbar vertebrae). I think we've all seen that a lot in the Boxer ring, where the dog looks like he's been hit in the back with an axe, but in Dobermans, the anticlinal vertebrae should be well covered with muscle and not visible. We can see that he has no forechest to speak of, he is straight in the shoulder and upper arm, his pasterns are long and weak. The pasterns are shock absorbers. The weakness in his pasterns that I am seeing in the photo may simply be the result of him breaking down over time because he lacks sufficient angles in the shoulder and upper arm, so the pasterns are absorbing too much shock (and simply wearing down over time). And, he is out of balance front to rear. He must have moved like a bit of a cross between Flipper and a Min Pin, or did he sidewind a bit?

Other than that, he is square, with two ears, both eyes, and the head and tail that are at opposite ends. He seems showy, he has a nice length of neck with a nice arch to it... and you finished him, certainly can't complain about that.:)

[Elaine]

Since weren’t not on the subject, one thing that Mc Dowel Lyon’s writes about is the importance of a “well let down hock” … which is a request for a proportionally short metatarsus. The ideal would be a long broad femur, a strong broad second thigh and a short metatarsus. This photo of Contender has always been extremely pleasing to me, in part because he hits that mark Lyon’s described perfectly.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/C-Breed-Ring-Bucks-1306sm.jpg

[Janice McGerr]

E, you need to go further! Explain it so Minka and others (who do not know) can understand what they are looking at! Do over lays with skeleton, showing why it is wrong or incorrect. And to make you really work at it make some lines show where it is off! Cut out parts and liberate.:)

Hey if anyone can benefit from my mistakes go for it, he finished because he went into the ring and SCREAMED I AM A GOD AND YOU MUST LOOK AT ME AND LOVE ME! And at the time he was out there were allot of dogs with the same problems he had and finished all so. As with anything changes do come in small amounts over time changing the looks. And in his time period he was a nice Isabella. I owned him and his breeder is gone. And he has no get that this would hurt so have at it.:)

[Elaine]

Janice was thoughtful enough to provide this rendition of a canine skeleton and then she overlaid it on Viper. Please note, we are using the drawing for educational proposes only. While I don't love this skeleton, and do not think it accurately depicts an ideal skeleton (contrast it with the illustrated standards linked below)… it is accurate in terms of the names of the bones and it may help clarify terms and aid in our understanding of how a dog is put together.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/Doberman-skeleton_copy.jpg

The overlay below highlights Viper's short comings, including his lack of desired forechest and lack of return of the upper arm (which is very upright). But we can also see that he is pretty much square, which is a good thing.


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/overlay.jpg

[Elaine]

To better understand structure and function (how movement follows form), I think it is useful to look at other breeds. Here are links to the illustrated standards of various breeds. If we look at the shoulder assembly of the ideal German Shepherd, Greyhound, Smooth Fox Terrier, Dachshund, Miniature Pinscher or Great Dane, we will see some ideal shoulder assemblies that are correct for these breeds yet anthetical to what we desire in Dobermans.

Some breeds do not have an illustrated standard and the attention to the front assembly is so brief one gets the impression they assume we all know what a good assembly for that breed is. The Greyhound assembly is a good example, the mention of the shoulders is about as brief as any I’ve ever seen. Also, the Smooth Fox Terrier standard calls for a long sloping shoulder, but does not mention the upper arm. If you look at examples on the website you will see Smoothes with long well laid-back scapulas and relatively short upright upper arms, which translates directly to how these dogs move. If there is no illustrated standard it is helpful to look on the website for the notable champions of record shown on the site.


From the German Shepherd Dog Club of America http://www.gsdca.org/base/index.php
Breed Standard, which is illustrated http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/GSDCA_...vised_4_08.pdf
Note how they describe the ideal shoulder assembly. They specifically request "about" a 90-degree angle at the shoulder joint.


From the Greyhound Club of America http://www.greyhoundclubofamerica.org/
Greyhound Breed Standard http://www.greyhoundclubofamerica.org/akc-standard.html All their standard says about shoulders is this: "Shoulders * Placed as obliquely as possible, muscular without being loaded."

American Fox Terrier Club http://www.aftc.org/55112/index.html
Smooth Fox Terrier breed standard http://www.aftc.org/55112/6501.html


The Dachshund Club of America http://www.dachshund-dca.org/
The Breed Standard http://www.dachshund-dca.org/breedstandard.html
Watch the Dachshund move http://www.dachshund-dca.org/Media/dachshund_interpretation.swf This is a fantastic link for showing all sorts of things. Note the rearward flexion of the metatarsus (one of the best examples for visualizing sickle hocks); note that the shoulder joint opens in the forward stroke, but not so much that it leaves the support of the chest wall completely. Run your curser over the skeleton and it will pop up the breed standard and explain that part of the dog
pictures of front assemblies of Dachshunds http://www.dachshund-dca.org/colorpics.html

Minature Pinscher Club of America http://www.minpin.org/
MinPin Breed Standard http://www.minpin.org/akc_stand.html
Illustrated Standard http://www.minpin.org/ill_stand.html Not much to say about what this breed standard says about fronts, if you blink, you'll miss it. But I so agree with this, "Because Min Pins are short coated, physical features and condition can be easily seen; judges do not need to touch every inch of the dog ... "

Great Dane Club of America http://www.gdca.org/
Breed Standard http://www.gdca.org/standard.htm
Illustrated Standard http://www.gdca.org/illustrated.htm

Doberman Pinscher Club of America http://www.dpca.org/
The Breed Standard http://dpca.org/breed/breed_standard.htm
The Illustrated Standard http://www.dpca.org/JEC/illustrated_standard.htm

[andyhilt27]

What do you mean by "good return of the upper arm" and "good return of the stifle"?

[Elaine]

What do you mean by "good return of the upper arm" and "good return of the stifle"?


It's "return" of the upper arm and "bend" of stifle.

"Return of the upper arm" is a reference to the upper arm (the humerus) coming at an angle back under the dog. Not sure, but if I had to guess, I'd guess that the terminology came for the upper arm "returning" under the dog. An upper arm that is straight, (i.e., one that appears to be almost perpendicular to the ground) like in the Smooth Fox Terriers and the Greyhound, would not be correct for breeds like the German Shepherd, Great Dane, Dachshund, Doberman which require that the humerus return under the dog at a marked angle (when viewed from the side). In Dachshunds, they would refer to the lack of return of the upper arm as the dog having "a short upper arm" or being "set forward."



The stifle joint is the knee of the dog. "Good bend of stifle" is a reference to the angle made by the femur and the tibia. The ideal varies slightly from breed to breed. Correct bend of stifle for a Dachshund would not be correct for a Min Pin.

Soooo, tell me how much you love this link to the moving Dachshund skeleton. http://www.dachshund-dca.org/Media/dachshund_interpretation.swf This is amazing.. you can learn a great deal from it. Run your curser over the skeleton and it will pop up the breed standard and explain that part of the dog... really fantastic. wish we had this type of thing for Dobermans.

[Janice McGerr]

Soooo, tell me how much you love this link to the moving Dachshund skeleton. http://www.dachshund-dca.org/Media/dachshund_interpretation.swf This is amazing.. you can learn a great deal from it. Run your curser over the skeleton and it will pop up the breed standard and explain that part of the dog... really fantastic. wish we had this type of thing for Dobermans.

I love that site!:cool:I think if we had one for our breed it would help alot of people to understand.

[Lili]

I think that skeleton moving is wonderful. We need one in Dobermans and every other breed. A great example.

Lili

[Elaine]

I really love that as your cursor hovers over any part of the Dachshund’s anatomy, the relevant part of the Breed Standard pops up, along with examples of faults. How easy is that to understand eh? Must be why we see so many nice Dachshunds, it’s easy for even new comers to understand what they are supposed to be breeding for. And the skeleton actually looks like what it should for the dog, even the moving dog (unlike the skeleton that Janice had to use for Viper).

Years ago, back in the mid 1990’s, on the Buck’s - Trenton weekend, I had the pleasure of being Col. Wally Pede’s guest on a day when he judged a Dachshund specialty. The following day we were at a dinner party at Gunter’s Behr’s home, with Mrs. Alan Robson, Bobby Fowler and Liz Heyman… and if I have those names correctly I get a gold star. :p :rolleyes: It was basically a weekend of great Dachshunds and great dog people. Ended up with Del Val on Monday and dinner with Bill Shelton, Maripi and Jen.

I really came to appreciate Dachshunds, especially fell in love with a Wires’ and even came to appreciate Wally’s judging style, which is based on his point system, which I still can not explain.:D

Dachshunds are amazingly angulated animals, bred to chase Badgers to ground. To do so, they are built to rest on their keels on the ground, while their shoulder assemblies allow the freedom to keep digging in the hole. They have amazing angles, front and rear… the correct bend of stifle is a 45 –degree angle. Maybe I should stop saying that a Doberman “set’s down like a German Shepherd behind.” I should say he “sets down like a Dachshund.” :D

[Lou's mom]

To do so, they are built to rest on their keels on the ground, while their shoulder assemblies allow the freedom to keep digging in the hole.

Lil earthmovers eh? Love the "keel" reference -- makes me envision them as canoes with legs. :D

[Elaine]

Lil earthmovers eh? Love the "keel" reference -- makes me envision them as canoes with legs. :D

that about sums them up :D :D :D

[Lou's mom]

Which makes me think about Doberman 'keel's.

I've noticed on 2 bitches now that as weight gets to the optimum (back few ribs showing) or below (ugly story), when my girls sit, their sternum becomes pronounced. So much so that on a very underweight girl, I could hang her collar from the top of her sternum.

Esplain, if you're so inclined?

[Elaine]

Which makes me think about Doberman 'keel's.

I've noticed on 2 bitches now that as weight gets to the optimum (back few ribs showing) or below (ugly story), when my girls sit, their sternum becomes pronounced. So much so that on a very underweight girl, I could hang her collar from the top of her sternum.

Esplain, if you're so inclined?

I'll take a whack at it. As I mentioned, I do not think the skeleton of the Doberman is accurate with respect to the exact placement, so let’s ignore it for a moment and go to my favorite skeleton, that of the Dachshund. http://www.dachshund-dca.org/Media/dachshund_interpretation.swf

You can see on the Dachshund that the forward most sternabrae protrude well in front of the point of shoulder. It is pretty easy to visualize that when a Dachshund sits down, the forward most sternabrae protrude quite a bit. I think it is the same in all breed, some (like the Dachshund would probably be more pronounced than a breed like a Doberman. I would imagine at the far end of the scale would be a Saluki or Greyhound.

[Lou's mom]

cool link, thanks. seems like the forward part of the sternum is directly below the atlas vertebrae when standing... interesting!