Eva and Andy need our prayers

[Elaine]

Don’t want to go into details here (that is up to Andy).. but he and Eva REALLY need our prayers .. now, TODAY.

Andy is family… we all love the guy. I have said this before, I’m saying it again… I believe in the power of prayer, in whatever form, however you connect to a higher power… the power is there. The collective power of prayer can work miracles, and Eva needs one about now.

[Lou's mom]

myBella & I sending pawsitive thoughts for 'em.

[MissMerry]

We will have Eva and Andy in our prayers, and hope for a speedy and full recovery.

Julie

[doberdogsfd]

We will keep positive thoughts going their way.

Cheryl

[Sheila]

Prayers and positive thoughts from me and the fur babies.

Sheila

[pretty dobe]

All the best to Eva and Andy... Prayers and good thoughts from this house and the Doberkids....

Keep us posted....

Judie

[andyhilt27]

Eva says "thank you" to everyone.

She injured her CCL in her right leg 2 or 3 months ago. Yesterday she injured the other one while running in the back yard. I suspect the squirrels were taunting her again.

So she is operating on one rear leg that doesn't want to bear all of the weight. I will take her to the vet at 3:00 pm today. To say she is hobbling is an understatement.

She has SuzyQ's head in her mouth as I type this so her spirits are up.

Based on my research I am not a fan of any procedure to repair the CCL. The Tight Rope and the old fishing line procedures basicly keep the joint stable until scar tissue forms. Well, the knee with proper conservative management will do that on its own. The TLPO and TTA actually correct the geometry of the stifle but are very very invasive. None are guranteed to work and if the latter fail the consequences are far worse than the initial injury.

My wife just asked me, "What are you going to do?" My response was basically, "Nothing." I am taking her to the vet and having her hips xrayed to make sure they aren't the root cause and get her some meds for pain and inflammation. Then it's wait and see. "But she'll be in pain!!" The pain from any of the surgeries will far exceed this.

In short, I want Eva able to walk and alive. All of the procedures gurantee nothing and can result in death.

Anyways.....enough of my internal conflict.

Eva is doing ok. She started putting a little weight on it a few moments ago. She hasn't yelped since this morning. So she should be walking normal in a week if not sooner. She won't ever be 100 percent with or without surgery. I am going to make her take it easy for about a month and see what happens.

So the question is, is this inherited? You don't hear of too many Dobes tearing their knees up. I know of one other dog with a SA pedigree that has a suspected torn CCL. A young dog.

Anyone else know of any?

[katdobemom]

Andy
Dallas and I are sending good thoughts from Maryland.

[Betty]

Andy,

Ralph, Halla and I are keeping you and Eva in our thoughts and prayers. A very wise woman and dear friend taught me the value of "baby steps". Thinking that way really does make things easier when you think things are not going the way you would like. The "girls" and I will be thinking positive thoughts this afternoon when you are at the vets. Keep us posted.

Betty

[pretty dobe]

Andy, my first girl caught her toe in the carpet and that was it...She lived a good life but never was quite right. That leg when she was active, which was all the time, would be sore and tired at the end of the day. But we kept her quiet until it all healed and she had a good life.

Second girl was running flat out chasing a rabbit and stepped in a hole and that was all it took... These things happen and it is no ones fault. Dobes have prey drive and we wouldn't want them any other way.

Good luck at the vet this afternoon....

Judie

[andyhilt27]

The vet confirmed it as torn on her left leg. Her right leg is completely torn now. He is advising surgery on both but obviously not at the same time......I just don't know.

The meds offered her some relief. She jumped up onto to the couch so that is good. I was outside when this happened otherwise I would have helped her up.

It's heartbreaking. I miss playing fetch with her and know she misses it too. Although running is a big enjoyment to her, it is not her only hobby. She can still enjoy chewing, kisses, rubbins, chewing, sleeping, and of course eating.

[Kissntell]

Andy when my dogs were out on the Indian Reservation running on 80 acres they blew out their front leg tendons.

It looked just like when a horse bows a tendon.

A wise old person told me to leave them alone and they will heal fine.

It was hard to see the dogs with legs like sausages while this went on. But I took her advise and guess what...eventually they healed and you would never know this had happened.

I know other people who enlisted the vet with surgery and the dogs could never walk again. This was due to the fact that no one can ever really get the length right except mother nature.

So by leaving nature heal in this regard, it worked. It just takes time. I often wonder what these surgeries do?

I know that I've had three shoulder surgeries done now. I think they shortened up the muscle too much in my arm. Not all things are fixable. Now I live with that. Maybe, I should have just left it alone.

My arm hung out of the socket for 4 years. When they put it back in, it didn't work so well. Nature had already fixed it. Now the muscle is too short and I too am ending up with a "lame" arm which is embarrassing. I feel like a retard, with a retard arm.

It just so happens to be my left arm and you know how important the left arm is in dogs and horsemanship.

Anyway, my vote is to let nature take care of itself. If I could turn back the clock maybe I'd do the same with my arm.

[Elaine]

Andy, I am so sorry to hear this, it can not be easy, I wish you and Eva well, whatever decision you make. Btw, is your vet saying that the second injury is the result of excessive stress on the leg, caused by the injury on the other leg. And, did he ask that you try to keep her from jumping up and down?

I have no advice to offer here, the closest I have ever been to your experience was about 25 years ago, this guy, Kenneth R. Sinibaldi, DVM, Diplomate ACVS http://www.animalsurgical.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2&Itemid=17 x-rayed our Giant Schnauzer bitch Kali and told us she had a torn cruciate ligament and needed a $3,000 plus surgery, immediately, that there was no other option. As in, “ I’m the Board Certified Medical Expert here, the dog needs surgery immediately.")

We had a young daughter, a mortgage, etc, $3K was a lot of money for us, and it was not easy to simply say, "oh sure." We took Kali home from the clinic and that evening I was on the phone with Marta Brock, (a Great Dane owner), who had Sinibaldi do a similar surgery on one of her Great Danes. Marta said she regretted allowing the surgery to be done, that it had been a disaster, etc., much harder on the dog than she'd been told it would be, and that while recuperating the Dane had done more damage to the other leg… etc.

While we were on the phone Marta asked me a question about Kali, I said, “ Just a minute, let me call her, she’s outside trotting around in the orchard.” Marta said that if Kali were trotting, she did not have a torn cruciate ligament, and she did not need surgery. We did not do surgery… Marta was right. Kali (Skansen's 'N Bright Lights) took months to heal, but she never had surgery, she was fine (not great, but she was dysplastic at 9 months, and was never sound to begin with). We decided we’d had enough of Ken Sinibaldi’s alleged expertise. I have always thought that he was more interested in his next Porsche payment than in us or Kali.

At 55, I can count on one finger the number of medical professionals I trust.

I have no idea what your situation is with respect to the exercise Eva gets, and I don't remember all of the details because it was so long ago, but Kali was never ever crated, she had full access to the 6 acres we had at the time, and she played pretty hard with our younger Giant. I think we kept the other Giant separate from Kali for a few weeks... and we did not let Kali climb stairs, but we did not do much else to limit her exercise. Her discomfort was self-limiting, but Giants are such a life force, trying to subdue them would be like trying to harness a hurricane. I was cooking for my dog back then, and we were members of PCC (which was a co-op for high end organic food, a human grocery store), so Kali did not eat commercially prepared food, she had great quality organic meat, rice and veggies.. and lots of vitamin C and a multi vitamin that Sylvia Hammerstrom sold at the time, all of which may have made a positive difference.

[Kissntell]

"At 55, I can count on one finger the number of medical professionals I trust."

At 58, I cannot count on any fingers the number of medical professionals I trust!

What I have learned is this entire scheme of things is based on one thing: The whole world is based on one thing:

What's in it for me?

Business is business; and money, and the aquisition of it, is what makes the world go around. I have learned that I have a brain and I need to always rely on that.

It all started with the dentist who ruiened my mouth for his profit. Back then, I believed doctors said what you needed and you did it. So way back in 93, I spent $15,000 on my perfect teeth. What I have left is nothing. And, he and the credit card company took the profit. That's another one I wish I could play back.

Your decision of course. You too have a brain and can decide what is right. I'm not saying a no vote on your dilemma. I'm saying think it out first.

[andyhilt27]

I wanted to do a xray on her hips to make sure nothing is wrong back there. The vet responded, "Why? It didn't cause this. You can't breed her now, so why waste the money.". Ok he says she will be near a hundred percent after surgery and thinks that this not congenital....why couldn't I breed her. Hmmmm. My plans of breeding her pretty much diminished after the first knee and completely vanished after this. I thought the first knee was a fluke injury and perhaps the second was over compensation. But I really believe she isn't built correctly. So breeding is not gonna happen. I don't want to chance it.
Elaine...her exercise prior to the first injury consisted of lots of fetch and running around with the other dogs. When she was younger she was crated during the night and when no one was home....which wasn't often. She was never over weight. At least not then. Since she is not as active now she has gained a pound so we are pulling back a little.

Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers. I pray she is relatively pain free for years to come without surgery....or if my research leads to surgery that it goes well.

This really sucks. I feel so bad for her. I wish she could tell me what she wants to do.

[Kissntell]

I have found all too often that vets are quick to say spay.

Gee...when I first went in for shots as a puppy they wanted to schedule the spay.

Spays are simple money makers for them and the rest of the care costs after that either way.

I use to work as a vet assistant and the spays were the biggest money maker he did. We could do them in 20 minutes and it goes by weight of the dog. So the larger dog brings even more money. The only difference is larger area and the weight on the table.

[Kissntell]

Andy...you do not have to make a quick decision. I know you love your dog and wish she could speak. So let it play out some and then you can think better. When things bother me, I think on them, and then my decison is so much clearer and I feel good about them.

[Elaine]

I wanted to do a xray on her hips to make sure nothing is wrong back there. The vet responded, "Why? It didn't cause this. You can't breed her now, so why waste the money.". Ok he says she will be near a hundred percent after surgery and thinks that this not congenital....why couldn't I breed her.

Does he mean congenital, from Webster's: adjective, congenital, inborn, innate, inherent, present at birth but not necessarily hereditary; acquired during fetal development. Is he sayinng that it was not acquired, but may be heritable, and may not be related to the prenatal deficit and the post natal environment?


From Wikipedia:

Congenital disorder involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus. It may be the result of genetic abnormalities, the intrauterine (uterus) environment, errors of morphogenesis, or a chromosomal abnormality. The outcome of the disorder will further depend on complex interactions between the pre-natal deficit and the post-natal environment.[1] Congenital disorders vary widely in causation and abnormalities. Any substance that causes birth defects is known as a teratogen. The older term congenital [1] disorder does not necessarily refer to a genetic disorder despite the similarity of the words.

A congenital physical anomaly is an abnormality of the structure of a body part. An anomaly may or may not be perceived as a problem condition. Many, if not most, people have one or more minor physical anomalies if examined carefully. Examples of minor anomalies can include curvature of the 5th finger (clinodactyly), a third nipple, tiny indentations of the skin near the ears (preauricular pits), shortness of the 4th metacarpal or metatarsal bones, or dimples over the lower spine (sacral dimples). Some minor anomalies may be clues to more significant internal abnormalities.

A congenital malformation is a congenital physical anomaly that is deleterious, i.e. a structural defect perceived as a problem. A typical combination of malformations affecting more than one body part is referred to as a malformation syndrome.

Birth defect is a widely-used term for a congenital malformation, i.e. a congenital, physical anomaly which is recognizable at birth, and which is significant enough to be considered a problem. According to the CDC most birth defects are believed to be caused by a complex mix of factors including genetics, environment, and behaviors,[1] though many birth defects have no known cause.

Genetic disorders or diseases are all congenital, though they may not be expressed or recognized until later in life.

Genetic diseases may be divided into single-gene defects, multiple-gene disorders, or chromosomal defects. Single-gene defects may arise from abnormalities of both copies of an autosomal gene (a recessive disorder) or of only one of the two copies (a dominant disorder). Some conditions result from deletions or abnormalities of a few genes located contiguously on a chromosome. Chromosomal disorders involve the loss or duplication of larger portions of a chromosome (or an entire chromosome) containing hundreds of genes. Large chromosomal abnormalities always produce effects on many different body parts and organ systems.

A congenital metabolic disease is also referred to as an inborn error of metabolism. Most of these are single gene defects, usually heritable. Many affect the structure of body parts but some simply affect the function.

[Elaine]

"At 55, I can count on one finger the number of medical professionals I trust."

At 58, I cannot count on any fingers the number of medical professionals I trust!

:D

[andyhilt27]

Congenital was my wording....misused obviously. I didn't realize that. I meant heredity.

I don't know what he is thinking in terms of that.

My point is that if the surgery is so damn spectacular why can't she be bred? He thought nothing else caused her injury such as her hips.

Does this make sense?

[Elaine]

Does this make sense?
Oh heck no! I do not know anything at all about Eva’s type of injury, so I have no clue what makes sense here. In equines, there are vets who specialize in sport injuries, like Dr. Fred McCashin, who was the USA’s Olympic Equestrian Team Vet in Montréal in 1972, and he was the veterinary media advisor for the Olympics in 1996. McCashin is a great vet who does an exceptional job with sport injuries (and everything else).

I don’t know of any small animal vets with similar emphasis in their practices, but maybe if you spoke to a vet who works at a Greyhound racing track, you might get some useful advice. I have no clue who your vet is, but it would not surprise me if you have found your version of Ken Sinibaldi.

[doberdogsfd]

This type of injury can be caused by several things.
Arthritis, injury to the stifle joint, overweight, structural abnormality near the joint, lack of muscularity near the joint.

Sometimes with dogs under 4 yrs of age it is caused by an acute injury, severely twisting the ligament and it then hyperextends. Stepping into holes, rapid change in direction, being run into by another animal, etc.

Andy....I am not sure if you saw a GP or an Orthropod, but there is no way I would settle for a GP's opinion on this type of rupture or allow any one but an orthropod to cut my dog.
It is commonly thought that the closer to the rupture surgery is done, the more successful it it. Something to consider.

Now, this isn't going to be the popular opinion, but I agree about not breeding her.
[B]REASON: The additional weight is going to cause her amazing amounts of pain. You may loose whatever benefit a surgery has given her by allowing her to be carrying puppies.
[B]
I have seen and assisted these surgeries. They are as good as the surgeon doing them and it is massively important that the post op care be perfection, both at the facility that she has her surgery and most importantly at home. Most owners are the ones that create issues post op. Rehab plays a big part in it.

I do not envy your postion Andy and our thoughts are with you. Give you girl a hug and kiss from us.

[andyhilt27]

Yeah....not gonna breed her. That was sarcasm in relation to the vet saying the procedure was so spectacular. Even if the added weight weren't a concern I wouldn't want to chance any of her puppies going through this if it is a structural defect thing. Chances are great it was intially an acute injury and the second a result of the first. But still.....

I think I am gonna call Purdue University tomorrow. IF I do any procedure it would probably be the TightRope.

This really really sucks for her....sucks for me because I must make a decision.

[doberdogsfd]

I am with you Andy. There isn't one of us that hasn't faced a very similar situation and can't put themselves right in your spot....it flat out sucks, my friend.

It is typically a successful surgery if done by a good surgeon. You run into issues when the GPs start dabbling in joints.
I can not stress the post op more. If Perdue does the surgery, they will have a great rehab facility or one they will send you to. Go and do not back off of it. It becomes the most important part of her recovery.

I have had a bitch that had a spinal injury, Deca. She wasn't a candidate for surgery due to age and the fact it might only be 60% successful. We went to rehab 3 times a week for months and then accupucture. One of my good pals is a rehab specialist locally...I am lucky. Deca walked as close to normally because of what Dr Ann Cauflied did for her.

Take care and keep us in the loop.
Cheryl

[dobesign]

Anterior cruciate, posterior and lateral/medial can be inherited although not directly. As hips and bone formation can be dictated genetically, so must the manner in which the movements are actuated. It is exacerbated by dogs which are overweight or inactive. Typically, when one acl blows the owner will not even know for several days, then weeks later have it repaired only to have the other side blow because the dog is compensating for the previous injury. TPLO is indeed a VERY invasive technique whereby the surgeon breaks bones such as the femur or tibia and rotates them pinning or plating the bones in place. That surgery also frequently results in a compensation injury. Xraying the hips is a brilliant idea. Depending on the age of the dog, I would debate the relative merits of the surgery. As for the "oh she's in pain" thing...my response is that she was in more pain when it first happened, and she will be in even MORE pain after the surgery. I think it depends on which result you are expecting. In an older dog, I would let it go and deal with the subsequent arthritis and lotsa deramaxx. As for this NOT happening in dobes, my response is PFFFT YES IT IS! People just keep the dogs out of sight. I personally know over 20 dobes that have gone through this surgery in the past year, and only 2 of them were over the age of 4. It's just a hazard of being a big active dog (frequently jumping into the air on a slick floor is the cause of the injury, incidentally). It's why more football players have this injury and cheerleaders not so much.

[andyhilt27]

It's why more football players have this injury and cheerleaders not so much.

Not so much the size as it is the unpredictable cutting motion of ball players. I know of two female atheletes I went to high school with that had ACL tears. Volleyball and soccer.....not large girls. Cheerleaders' movements are choreographed and very predictable (I have seen cheerleaders that were hefty and jumping around). Although weight does play a role....I disagree with that comparison.

My severed ACL was not a result of cheerleading or football.:D It is far less painful if you severe it from what I hear. I felt discomfort but no pain.....lots of pain post op and every single day since then. On a good day I have a limp. On a bad day...well, you can find me on the couch. When the pain becomes unbearable I will have the knee replaced and not a day before then.

To say I know what Eva is going through is an understatement. Many a day I wake up not knowing which leg to limp on. I walk very awkwardly first thing in the morning. Ulcers be damned....give me the coffee and Ibuprofen!!!!! No coffee or Ibuprofen??? Well then it's best just to let Andy have his alone time. I am not really that grumpy....I just speak another lanuage when I get up.