Question About Dog Agression

[Elaine]

Meant to pose this question a few days ago... but got caught up in all my Birthday Celebrating. :cool: Earlier this week someone dear to me (a member of a Motorcycle Gang I recently was asked to join ;)) asked about this, and I have no direct experience so I thought I’d pose the question here. The names have been changed to protect the innocent… and to obscure the identity of the person posing the question. :p:rolleyes: For what it's worth, my guess would be that it won't make that much of a difference, but that's just a guess.

Any tips on dog aggression? Muffy and Bippy have gotten into two fights in as many weeks. The first time I was able to separate them but I did not escape unscathed....four puncture wounds and my feelings hurt. Muffy and Bippy show no aggression towards my smaller dogs, but they definitely have dominance issues with each other. Will Muffy be less aggressive if spayed?

[dobesign]

After dealing with the dog both in home at training/clinic work at animal humane, I find it depends on how old muffy and bippy are. If this is a behaviour that has been learned, it will not much matter if spayed/neutered, although the initial trigger may be a bit more suppressed. If however these are very young dogs, then neutering/spaying may help in redirecting the behaviour. Either way, it is not a surgery that cuts out attitude, so the real answer is training or separation. Not all rivalries can be solved, but many can with the right guidance.

[doberdogsfd]

I am assuming they are two males? How old are they?

Castration only takes the edge off, it doesn't solve the issue. Less testosterone fueled aggression the better. I recommend to my cleints to remove that and let the dog(s) recover before the training begins, but it really comes down to the human and the modification/training that happens. There really isn't an option.
Do the work, re-home the dogs, seperate. I always choose to see if the dogs actually can co-exhist and if th ehuman is able to handle them.
Sometimes the human invovled has created an issue by not supporting the most dominate dog and obeying pack rules. Our interjections and behaviors can create more issues.

What has to happen is a QUALIFIED and I repeat, QUALIFIED Animal Behaviorist needs to be contacted.
Typically the human has not read the signs properly and does not understand that the lines of dominance can be fluid and can flex and bend if properly handled. Seperation tends to create an environment of tension and frustration.
These fights tend to get more aggressive as they go. The risk of injury to the human and the dogs grows.

This is not a qucik fix issue. It also isn't one that can be address any deeper via this post. I am more then happy to speak to the person confidentially on the phone or in email if they would like to contact me.
I may be able to assist in contacting a behaviorsit in their area if they would like.

Lately I have seen a trend in anyone and everyone calling themselves Behaviorst or Dog Trainers. It is pretty pathetic.
The Pet Smart instructor gets called to handle an issue like this and ends up ruining dogs and the human's perception of what a qualified, educated and experienced behaviorist can do for them.
Worse yet, some idiot straps an E-collar on and lights them up with no clue as to how to use electronics to solve an issue or if it should be used.

Again.....Get with me and I will help direct to someone who is able to evaluate this issue properly.

Cheryl

[Kissntell]

The animal behaviorialist I know of is a board certified DVM. It is a speciality much like psychiatrity. It sort of goes like this:

I was floored when I learned that anyone trained or not can call themselves a "counseler" and a business get paid for such in the state of California. The trick is the wording...as in counseler vs. therapist.

So you can go to a counsler who works for the YMCA and get counseling vs going to a licensed therapist. This is dangerous. It is also dangerous in dogs that this is happening.

Now to the question.

I have had bitches be worse than dogs to fight each other. The saying goes that bitches are bitches and dogs are dogs.

The worse combination you can have is litter sisters. There will always be a rivary. The mother daughter combination is next.

I went over this years ago with Margrie Hudson. I was shocked when my bitches went for each other; and then I found out many others had this same experience but kept their mouths shut.

I no longer have that line. But for me I do not ever run the same sex together. Of course now I only have one dog.

The worse bites I have taken is over these fights. It seems that the worst thing you can do is seperate bitches over time and them bring them back home. I had this happen the first fight when a bitch came home from the show circuit. The order of the house had changed and now the other was the boss and not to be asked to step down.

Often this will happen without any form of warning. The two bitches I had were on their way out the door together and boom in a blink of the eye. It shocked me. So now I will never allow two of the same sex together. I will never let it go there.

Insodently, I have had this occur with the Labs I had before as well. And, spaying made absolutely no difference with either breed.

I think folks who do run the same sex together are risking a major surprise. Not me ever! Once there, never there again.

Surprisingly, the training kennel of which I go to runs the dogs in groups in day care. They use a plastic gatorade bottle to shake and make a loud noise to break things off. I'm not that good.

[doberdogsfd]

I had two littermate GSDs when I was a teenager. Very nice imports, very well trained.
They loved to have a dust up. Wicca being worse then Bear, but Bear was 15 lbs heavier then then my little black and tan girl. She tended to be able to fend her off pretty well. It was a hassle.

I use noise also. It is a very handy technique and ends a lot of silly stuff if caught quick enough.
It is also a useful technique for other types of training....barking being one of them.

Yes....those of us that have gone through the work to get the knowledge and have applied it for years and successfully at that, get a tad pissy with some of the folks that hang a shingle out and call themselves behaviorists and/ or a trainer after a short course with a local trainer. Annoying.

Cheryl

[andyhilt27]

Ok the hierarchy around here is as follows:

1. Me
2. Erin (Erin may be #1, but we have dominance issues and she isn't in the room)
3. Amelia (she is nearing two years old but is very assertive)
4. Tabitha (A 6 pound Toy Fox Terrier that is pictured next to the definition of "bitch")
5. SuzyQ (A seven pound Toy Fox Terrier that is almost as bitchy as her mother)
6. Eva
7. Joy

Joy needs to be above Eva or needs to give up her throne without a fight. She is too damn old to be challenging or accepting challenges from Eva. Eva needs to chill out. Andy is going to a behaviorist soon to learn how to solve this problem.

So these two got into it again last night. I literally had to lift Eva off of Joy. I then tucked Eva under one arm and gave Joy a straight arm with other. It was just like a Heisman Trophy pose, only I had a 65 pound Doberman under my arm snarling and trying to bite to Joy.

I believe this to be food related or at least started out that way. You see, the first fight took place when my daughter learned that it was funny to drop food on the floor and watch the dogs compete to get it. I never gave Eva any human food. I didn't want to create any bad behaviors. My daughter being a year old at the time didn't know any better.

The last 3 fights have occurred where Eva eats. I believe her to be protecting her territory from Joy. Perhaps I have created this problem by feeding the Dobermans in seperate rooms. I did this so they wouldn't have this issue. Another cause might be from the early play fighting that occurred early in Eva's life between her and Joy. I thought this behavior would help establish the pack order. Evidently Eva did not like the pack order since she is able to kick Joy's ass.

They are both sweathearts. Joy gets a little grumpy due to her age. Eva has an edge to her that would be beneficial to Schutzhund training. I would not classify her as sharp but has an edge. She is a Doberman and has a protective/working temperment.

Update on her knees: She has no limp and is off of the pain meds. She obviously feels good enough to kick Joy's ass. I am still limiting her running.

Update on the biker gang for Elaine: I am selling the Harley as I have decided to pursue a new career and need the dough for expenses while educating myself. I have decided that I need a rock solid plan B before entering any entrepreneurial endeavors. So I have begun the long long journey of becoming a CRNA.....it is a 10 year plan. It should progress something like this: 1. LPN 2. RN 3. BSN 4. CRNA

My leadership and supervision experience will provide a solid foundation in the interim. I have no real desire to be a typical nurse. But anesthesia is intriguing and the pay is lovely. I would love to be an anesthesiologist but I don't have 12 years to give up with little to no pay.

[andyhilt27]

Things have been going well between Eva and Joy lately. I have been rewarding Eva a lot for submissive actions i.e. down. I make her wait at a down position until Joy has gone through the door to go outside. As soon as they begin to play fight I order Eva into a down position and reward her. I also order her into a down postion and call Joy over to pet her. I also will not pet her until she is submissive.

This has changed Eva's behavior a lot towards Joy. Her behavior towards my daughter is fantastic. No fear, no dominance, she knows her place there. Often I have to stop my daughter from standing on Eva because she will just lay there chewing her binky. She is Eva's second best friend next to me.

Dog behavior is fascinating to me. It really is not that complicated. You get clues to everyting, you know.....

[doberdogsfd]

You are doing well Andy. I would also move to Joy being fed first. Allowing the more dominent dog to do everything first, out the door, fed, pet etc, will also help.

What always has to be done is to support the dominate dog. Even if it is a bit emotional for the human involved.
The dominate dog will wait for a chance when you are not within range and address the the infractions made by the subordinate. Kind of to say " See, he isn't always around...."
i have seen a dog wait all day to handle an issue. The dog waited until the time was right and it always trus out worse for th edog on the recievng end.
Thos eissues were ypicallty created by a human getting overally involved in the relationship.

You may have to moderate individuals that flex the lines of dominance. Sometimes allowing the other to take the lead. Not always the easiest relationships to monitor. It is typically easier to have a clear dominate. But as we know from our own relationships, we sometimes have to allow the other person in the relationship control......at least if we want to remian in that relationship! LOL!!

Glad to hear things are working out.
Cheryl

[andyhilt27]

I intend to feed them in the same room later this week and make Eva wait in a down position. They have always been fed seperately and this could be part of the problem. What do you think?

[doberdogsfd]

It could be. Without seeing dogs, it is hard to be definate.
Using the down is a handy and effective technique.
Everyone should wait and behave until you release them. Let me know how it goes.

Feel free to contact me if you like.

Cheryl

[andyhilt27]

13 days without incident, knock on wood. The solution was more simple than I thought. Eva is very intelligent so that certainly helped.

Elaine or shall I say Admin, why is there no section for training and behavior???