Warning: Avid Chips and HSUS

[andyhilt27]

This just in from Elaine.....she is having technical difficulties and asked that I post this.



Subject: Avid Chips and HSUS
~permission to cross post ~

When you sell your puppy with an Avid microchip and
they register the chip in their name they will receive information to
insure their new pup with "Pet Plan". This insurance plan information
is sent out with Avid information and is affiliated with HSUS .

The other disturbing news we heard is that Avid is now mandating their distributors turn over their databases daily of ALL sales of Avid chips. When asked if this info would stay private, concealing the buyers information, they would not give an answer. In all the years MPBA has been with Avid they have never been asked to turn over their buyer info.

Missouri Pet Breeders, who distributes AVID microchips will
be using HomeAgain chips and for those of you who are purchasing from
us, we are working with Schering Plough and our distributor to offer
chips at a price that is in line with the AVID pricing. If you are
purchasing AVID chips from some other source beware that HSUS will now have your information (name, address, phone).

Barbara L. Schwartz
Delegate St. Louis Collie Club

Laura Finco
www.cdoca.org
Protection through Education

[Lou's mom]

forgive my not 'getting' the obvious, but...


AKC already has the breeders name etc. Why is HSUS having that information bad?

FWIW I wasn't too happy about what I call 'the Radio Shack interrogation' when I went to buy a part for my Hi-Lift jack recently, but I did have other local buying options.

[andyhilt27]

I don't know......I just do what I am told.:D

[pretty dobe]

I personally don't want Peta, HSUS or the White House in my computer. I don't want them in my dogs lives either. I do not go to Petsmart or Petco with my dollars because of their affiliations. In fact we were talking about just that at our Club meeting Wed night..... Besides the fact that Petco and Petsmart NEVER contribute to local specialties or dog causes. The dog people keep them in business and these businesses thumb their noses at the dog world. We in that world have to be on our toes as to what is going on with these people and get the word out there and decide what is best for us.

My two have two different chips in them, one being Avid. That will be the last Avid in my dogs and thank heavens it is an older one that doesn't fall into their change in policy.....

Glad you posted it Andy......

[Kissntell]

When I registared my puppy with the AKC, I received all kinds of selling offers. One was their pet insurance. So maybe this is not just the chips.

Anyway, my pup's chip is located somewhere in Canada and I have never heard from them less the registration.

I'm not so keen on the big pet stores. They are supporting the other side of our cause and I know it. Spay nuter is the answer to everything nowdays. Don't they get it in terms of difference in quality?

[pretty dobe]

One of my puppy owners has the AKC insurance and swears by it. She had other insurance on her other dobe and they were awful to deal with and paid little. AKC insurance paid more then she thought they would and always paid her within two weeks of sending in the bill. She is very high on that one.

[Elaine]

I don't know......I just do what I am told.:D
:D:p

I asked Andy to post this for me because I could not get online. So, first, “Thank You Andy.”

I thought this was worth posting to give us all a head’s up that data about us is being tracked. I realize that this data is also available in every dog show catalog, and frankly, I am less and less comfortable with that fact as the years go by and AR people become more and more aggressive and intrusive.

Lately we’ve been getting a rash of “Can we come to your home and see your dogs” emails. Our response is, “Hell no!!! This is a private home, not a commercial kennel and we ain’t a petting zoo for lookie lous. Piss off.”

I know what you’re thinking, “How does she manage to be so charming?”

Truth is, we do not want strangers dropping in… not at all. We almost never have dogs available, and when we do, we would never allow someone to come, look at our litter and decide which puppy they thought suited them based on a few hours of observation and interaction. No way in hell.

We know our dogs, we know their temperaments. The match of owner and puppy will be made by us, and it will never be made on an impulse. A given puppy might be very appealing in the moment, but not at all suited to the person/family in the long run. For example, E2 and Almé did not hit it off when she was here on vacation last October. Almé was in season and simply did not warm up to E2. But I knew Almé and I knew E2 and Tom… and Quincy… and knew that long-term they were all ideally suited for each other. E2 took Almé largely on faith that I knew the dog... and their situation... and I did.

E2 and Tom are here now with Quincy and Almé. They have been a family for 10 months now. It is as though they have always been a family unit. You will never find a happier more well adjusted group. They all suit each other perfectly… and that was not apparent in the first few hours, or even the first few days/weeks.

[Kissntell]

Elaine, I agree with you 100%.

A question though, what do you do with people who may want to fly out to look at a show puppy? I know meeting at the show grounds sometimes works; but, scheduling does not always work that way.

So how do you do that?

I'm just wondering because this is something I have given thought to. I do not want to entertain anyone in my home. In the past this has not proven to be in my best interests.

However, now even I would never buy a puppy sight unseen. I did however luck out on this one...but never again. I will look first before jumping.

[Elaine]

Elaine, I agree with you 100%.

A question though, what do you do with people who may want to fly out to look at a show puppy? I know meeting at the show grounds sometimes works; but, scheduling does not always work that way.

So how do you do that?

I'm just wondering because this is something I have given thought to. I do not want to entertain anyone in my home. In the past this has not proven to be in my best interests.

However, now even I would never buy a puppy sight unseen. I did however luck out on this one...but never again. I will look first before jumping.



Honestly, it has not come up... but then, we do not sell "Show Dogs." In fact, you will not see the phrase "Show quality" anywhere on our website. We have little or no interest “show homes” per se. Rather, we look for individual situations for each individual dog, that reflect a perfect match between the dog and the person. We want people who make a lifetime commitment to the dog… the show career is simply extra, just a brief moment in the dog’s life, never the be all; end all. Someone looking for some guarantee of this or that in the show ring would do best to find a breeder who mass produces litters, year after year after year… and considers dogs “merchandise” that you keep exchanging till you get it right. That simply isn’t us.

We breed very few litters, we take our time to assess what we have, each dog is a distinct individual... typically we only have one or two dogs available at any given time... and I can not think of a situation where anyone was offered or was considering more than one dog fromus at any given moment. But then, we breed for ourselves, not to sell puppies.

If I were looking to purchase... I'm not sure how I'd go about it anymore. Some of the best dogs I've ever owned came from the breeder, sight unseen. And some of the most "less than sheer perfection":o:(:rolleyes::eek::cool: where dogs I saw in person, who simply did not turn out.

[Minka]

"Lately we’ve been getting a rash of “Can we come to your home and see your dogs” emails. Our response is, “Hell no!!! This is a private home, not a commercial kennel and we ain’t a petting zoo for lookie lous. Piss off.”

1. Elaine will always call a spade a spade :p , hold on wasn;t I one of the people you told to piss off in the unlikely even that I travelled to the other end of the world :eek:

2. If you don't want the rash then stop running that web site which does a superb job of marketing and presenting those dogs

we do not sell "Show Dogs." In fact, you will not see the phrase "Show quality" anywhere on our website"

1. True - but good marketing is never about what is explicit its about what is underlying and implied - The message is we have dammed good dogs and they blow the doors of the competition in the ring

[dobesign]

I went through the elaine greenwood "get to know you" gauntlet! I don't think that you can size a person up in minutes or days. The tried and true "let them sit on the waiting list for a few years approach" shows that they know what the want and are willing to wait for it. Elaine has a way of seeing through a person (at least where dogs are concerned) which probably helps immensely. If these techniques fail, you could always do this:
If you are a dobe person, and folks want to 'evaluate' your dogs, go borrow a few of a friends min pins/manchesters/golden retrievers/maltese...ask the potention buyer over. See if they notice the difference!
And as a side note, Elaine DOES have damn fine dogs. I have two and they are simply astounding. But Elaine, don't let it go to your head! LOL!

[Kissntell]

I don't know but isn't it austoding how some "little" guys are passed over due to some unfounded misgivings.

I know few people in the dog world that will let you even have a chance. I got the "chance" with my puppy only because I previously owned a littermate to the "foundation" bitch.

But then...I was promised things which were not true. I know that many things went on behind lines. Having connected later with others, I was shocked.

My handler tells me this is always normal. In fact if you ask anyone else, your dog is shit, and only there's is worth anything. I think many people miss out big time with that attitude.

I've also seen mistakes made because people are stuck on "my line." They therefore keep breeding that line, and years down the line, I still can see "their line" faults prominant as ever. Over the years, I've gotten good at guessing who's who in the ring without a cataloge. It seems that "name brand" starts sticking out faults that are always there.

I think the dog world is really about people more than dogs. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

I've always wondered why the "pro" dog people complain about "back yard" breeders, a ligitmate complaint, yet provide the enviornment for it to exist very well. They make it much too difficult for those offering good homes to even dream of obtaining a nice dog.

I guess here everybody is on there own as to finding puppies and placing puppies. I was just wondering how others' did it.

I spoke with a Frenchie breeder at the show recently and she was so refreshing to talk too. I actually passed the home test. She would love to put a dog in my home. That actually felt good. And, this is a major respected breeder with excellent dogs. So not everybody is that way.

I think the Doberman breed attracts wierd people.

And, another thing I have always noticed:

When you go to the shows it is much easier to make friends with people not in your breed than to make friends within your breed. People don't know how to really compete. They compete as enemies. That is not the way I compete. So I've learned to sort of ignore the people in my breed.

[doberdogsfd]

.........huh?

[Elaine]

"Lately we’ve been getting a rash of “Can we come to your home and see your dogs” emails. Our response is, “Hell no!!! This is a private home, not a commercial kennel and we ain’t a petting zoo for lookie lous. Piss off.”

1. Elaine will always call a spade a spade :p , hold on wasn;t I one of the people you told to piss off in the unlikely even that I travelled to the other end of the world :eek:

2. If you don't want the rash then stop running that web site which does a superb job of marketing and presenting those dogs

we do not sell "Show Dogs." In fact, you will not see the phrase "Show quality" anywhere on our website"

1. True - but good marketing is never about what is explicit its about what is underlying and implied - The message is we have dammed good dogs and they blow the doors of the competition in the ring


Abe,

I would never ever tell you to "Piss off." I respect you and would sell you a dog in a heart beat if you lived next door or down the street. You come across as an intelligent committed Doberman enthusiast, an excellent reflection on your upbringing and education. You have made terrifically positive impression with us. Heck, Arthur and I would adopt you if we could... I think Janice feels about the same. I suspect that most people who meet you feel the same.

-E

[Elaine]

I don't know but isn't it austoding how some "little" guys are passed over due to some unfounded misgivings.

I know few people in the dog world that will let you even have a chance. I got the "chance" with my puppy only because I previously owned a littermate to the "foundation" bitch.

But then...I was promised things which were not true. I know that many things went on behind lines. Having connected later with others, I was shocked.

My handler tells me this is always normal. In fact if you ask anyone else, your dog is shit, and only there's is worth anything. I think many people miss out big time with that attitude.

I've also seen mistakes made because people are stuck on "my line." They therefore keep breeding that line, and years down the line, I still can see "their line" faults prominant as ever. Over the years, I've gotten good at guessing who's who in the ring without a cataloge. It seems that "name brand" starts sticking out faults that are always there.

I think the dog world is really about people more than dogs. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

I've always wondered why the "pro" dog people complain about "back yard" breeders, a ligitmate complaint, yet provide the enviornment for it to exist very well. They make it much too difficult for those offering good homes to even dream of obtaining a nice dog.

I guess here everybody is on there own as to finding puppies and placing puppies. I was just wondering how others' did it.

I spoke with a Frenchie breeder at the show recently and she was so refreshing to talk too. I actually passed the home test. She would love to put a dog in my home. That actually felt good. And, this is a major respected breeder with excellent dogs. So not everybody is that way.

I think the Doberman breed attracts wierd people.

And, another thing I have always noticed:

When you go to the shows it is much easier to make friends with people not in your breed than to make friends within your breed. People don't know how to really compete. They compete as enemies. That is not the way I compete. So I've learned to sort of ignore the people in my breed.

Sometimes breeders say “No” and don’t sell you a dog because they know the dog isn’t right for you. As breeders, we listen to what people say, we listen to their goals and expectations. If we feel we do not have a dog to suit their desires, we say “no.” That is not an insult; rather it is a way to avoid making a mistake, one which the dog ultimately pays for. We have friends all around the world who have asked to purchase certain puppies from us. We have said “no” … in part because the dog was not right for their dreams and goals. “No” is not an insult… it is a way of avoiding frustration and disappointment in the future.

I agree it is easier to have friends in other breeds. As for Doberman people being "weird." I don’t know about that. Lhasa Apso people can be weird. Poodle people can be weird… Great Dane people can be down right wacky. People in general can be weird, most will drive you nuts. I think it all depends on the moment, the situation, who specifically you are dealing with and your expectations.

[Kissntell]

Actually, the top name "reputable" breeders have always wanted to put a dog in my home. With them the no is their contract.

The contract usualy involved a co-ownership. But with that comes an agreement for 40 shows with the handler of their choice. After that it is the choice of stud dog with half of the first litter pick of puppies going to them. So a litter of six puppies would result in their taking the first 3 picks. That could leave you with pet quality puppies or buying one of your puppies back on another contract.

Those to me are "no" puppy deals.

I will always do what's right with a dog. But if an handler is screwing me, I am moving on to someone else.

If the dog is not winning...I am not going to force an issue. If it is doing decent then I'm game.

I am an adult who is very capable of making my own choices and decisions.

That is the issue with me.

[Minka]

Kissntell:
What your describing does not seem to be a co- ownership agreement. I know Janice, Elaine& the Blackwoods gang do not folow the well give you a dog and we will leach you for a dfew lifetimes

Dobesign
Brenna its a real pleasure to finally say hello - I've herd great things about you

[andyhilt27]

I like puppies.

[doberdogsfd]

I like puppies too Andy! :)

[doberdogsfd]

Ok....in all seriousness, how did we get away from a post about AVID Chips and the dreaded HSUS to....... " I hate you all because you make me sign a contract to properly care for the show puppy we are handing over to you. " on this thread?
I am perplexed, therefore my earlier post of "Huh" ?


I still like puppies though.
Cheryl

PS. Thank you Abe!

[andyhilt27]

Ok....in all seriousness, how did we get away from a post about AVID Chips and the dreaded HSUS to....... " I hate you all because you make me sign a contract to properly care for the show puppy we are handing over to you. " on this thread?
I am perplexed, therefore my earlier post of "Huh" ?


I still like puppies though.
Cheryl

PS. Thank you Abe!

Because the chips go into the puppies and if you sign a contract and have your information sold you are being held down by the MAN.

[Elaine]

This gets back to something as simple as reading the contracts we sign BEFORE we sign. How many of us do that?

I never meant to give anyone authority to sell my personal information, but I have always thought we who breed and show are a wide open target because of the information printed about us in each and every dog show catalog for the shows we enter. It is all there in black and white for the price of the catalog: our names, addresses, even to some degree the number of dogs we have and how to identify them, a mountain of data for about $8. The AKC may need to rethink what they require and release to the public.

[doberdogsfd]

I get that part Andy , but there are time when some of us get far a field of the issue. That is my point.


CB

[Minka]

What ever happened to the good old tatoo - I know a lot of people prefer it to the Microchip

[Lou's mom]

What ever happened to the good old tatoo - I know a lot of people prefer it to the Microchip
Good question, perhaps for another thread, but I'll give it a try. What would be tatoo'd on the dog? Address's & phone numbers can change, personal information could be mis-used by unscrupulous tech's... another can of worms, but points for 'outside the box'. ;)

[doberdogsfd]

We used to tattoo with our SS #. I know, YIKES!!!
I had it on both Flex and Deca.
In todays world of "I am going to become you and run up a 50k cc debt in your name."....not so much!

Tatts can and are altered. Probably one reason why the chip was developed .

Great question though!
Cheryl

[katdobemom]

We used to tattoo with our SS #. I know, YIKES!!!
I had it on both Flex and Deca.
In todays world of "I am going to become you and run up a 50k cc debt in your name."....not so much!

Tatts can and are altered. Probably one reason why the chip was developed .

Great question though!
Cheryl



The doberman that Alla Mcgeary stole from DAR&E (Stella) and Kim Danoff was tatooed. It certainly did nothing to bring her back.
http://www.dogshownewsnetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=63

[doberdogsfd]

Not to be an ass, but that dog was lost and never to be returned, the day Danoff sat at the end of the old #$%@'s drive and knew her dog was in that house.

Ask me what I would have done if I knew my dog was in that house. It wouldn't have been to call the PD and ask them to collect my dog for me.

Cheryl

[katdobemom]

Not to be an ass, but that dog was lost and never to be returned, the day Danoff sat at the end of the old #$%@'s drive and knew her dog was in that house.

Ask me what I would have done if I knew my dog was in that house. It wouldn't have been to call the PD and ask them to collect my dog for me.

Cheryl


Cheryl
I dont think thats being an ass at all. I would have done things differently as well and it wouldnt have been pleasant for sure. :)

[doberdogsfd]

;)

[Elaine]

I remember back to when we tattooed our social security numbers on the dogs, fast forward to about ten years ago, when as a Senior at the U of W a group of us were part of a project for the Washington State Senate Law and Justice Committee, studying Privacy and what could be done to protect our personal privacy. The single greatest threat to our privacy is that we store far too much data by our Social Security Number, including medical records, insurance information, tax info, and all sorts of other private information. And we all know that private businesses also use our SS# for things it was never intended, like our phone, our bank accounts, even something trivial like a Blockbuster Account.

The threat comes from much less glamorous sources than organized crime. All it takes is one disgruntled, morally challenged or off-balance employee with a grudge and access to a system for all sorts of personal information to be accessed. Medical staff at hospitals have leaked medical records to the press. (For example, Farrah Fawcett was outed about her cancer long before she wanted to go public because medical personal were selling medical files of Fawcett and other celebrities to the press). Once that sort of private information is leaked, what is the recourse? If you don't want the world to know you have terminal cancer, and some medical doctor / piece-o-slime sells that info to the National Enquirer, what punishment is fitting?

Looking at the larger picture, we have more laws on the books than the average citizen can keep up with. In 2009 we have to go to attorneys to sort out our legal rights and options and to access them. If we can not afford an attorney, we are shut out of the legal process (and our legal rights) all together. Our laws (and the rights and protections they are intended to offer each and every American citizen), are really only available to the wealthy. We have to pay attorneys to access our own legal system, which is absolutely galling, in large part because most law makers are attorneys, and the more complicated, poorly written laws they pass, the farther they remove the legal process from the average American Citizen, whom the laws are intended to serve and protect. The legal system is getting more and more to be a weapon of sleaze attorneys and the wealthy. The average person can not afford access to it, and can not understand the chaotic maze created by attorneys sufficiently to use our legal system as a lay person.

There is a quote I love, often attributed to Thurgood Marshall (former Justice of the US Supreme Court and the ideological father of Brown v. Board of Education I and II). Marshall said, “An attorney is either a social architect or a social parasite. In my expereince, with about two exceptions, the latter has always been true.

As for what I’d have done at the top of that driveway, I do not mean this as any criticism of Danoff (she did what she thought was right in the moment) but in the emotion of the moment I would not be surprised if I had simply put the truck in gear and gotten my dog back. (But the truth is, I wan't there and didn't have to make that choice.) I would guess that Danoff had a lot more faith in our legal system back then than she does today. If my dog (or anyone I loved) was in that threatening situation, in the moment I would act immediately to protect my dog (or loved one), and sort the rest out later. But then, I do not have any naïve faith that our legal system is even remotely capable of resolving civil disputes in a timely just manner.

[Athy]

As for what I’d have done at the top of that driveway, I do not mean this as any criticism of Danoff (she did what she thought was right in the moment) but in the emotion of the moment I would not be surprised if I had simply put the truck in gear and gotten my dog back. (But the truth is, I wan't there and didn't have to make that choice.) I would guess that Danoff had a lot more faith in our legal system back then than she does today.

Elaine, back then, we all (Danoff, me and the DAR&E board) had more faith that the law enforcement and judicial systems would act quickly to help get our dog back. We were wrong because of the confusion of one animal control officer. We have since learned that we had every legal right to march up to McGeary's door that day, accompanied by a police officer, and DEMAND that she return our dog. We didn't know enough about the law at that time to demand that action take place. We will never make that mistake again.

We also never anticipated that the national breed club would condone such thievery by supporting McGeary's bogus charges against the rescue group. That irresponsible behavior on the part of the DPCA encouraged McGeary's actions to the point that she refused to negotiate or compromise in any way along the path to her ultimate criminal conviction.

Athy

[Elaine]

I so agree with you, the unconscionable stupidity and poor judgment of the Burke /McNealy/ combo is really beyond believing. Out of pettiness, a personal vendetta and what can only be described as sheer stupidity, these two endorsed, encouraged and supported a policy that backed an errant Animal Rescue person in essentially stealing a dog. Can you image the precedent for what Alla McGeary did, that it is okay for some rescue person to go beyond the rights of the legal owners of the dog, and beyond the opinions and expertise of qualified vets who examined the dog…