Imported semen

[andyhilt27]

I am getting conflicting reports on the subject. I see on the AKC site that a dog intended to be collected must have a DNA test, ok I understand that. I have heard that the stud must be collected here in the U.S. Is this true?????

What I gather from the AKC site is conflicting with what I was told.

So what is the down low on importing semen?

[Elaine]

We’ve used frozen semen, in canines we used Kafka's frozen semen in 2004, and in the equines, we've both purchased from a frozen semen agent and we've imported equine frozen semen directly on our own (with a group of breeding partners). To do so we purchased a frozen semen tank in England, had it shipped to Germany, charged, filled with straws of Sandro Hit frozen semen (roughly about 4 straws per breeding dose and we had about 10 breeding doses), and then we had the tank shipped from Germany to our Equine Repro Vet here in New Freedom, PA. It was worth the expense in part because the quality of a stallion like Sandro HIt is not available here in North America and in part because we (our partners as well as us) had 100% conception, our partners were even able to split the breeding doses and get foals on half a dose. We purchased the semen for about $900 per dose, it is now going for about $3,000 per dose. We used Dr. John Hurtgen who is arguably the best equine repro guy in North America. He is successful and does not waste breeder's money. For example, he times the insemenation (deep horn) so that he gets the mare in foal on one dose or less. Some vets use a three dose protocol... i.e. $9,000 in semen alone for each breeding cycle, and then they take a few breeding cycles to get a mare in foal (and there would be the vet's fees on top of that). It all adds up very fast and can get pretty ugly. A Warmblood Sporthorse breeder would go broke if it cost them over $10K just to get a foal on the ground. Btw, mares ovulate about once a month and can be short-cycled to bring them in even more often.

Some things to note: unlike in canines, in equines there actually is such a thing as a Equine Reproductive Residency (or whatever the terminology), so it’s possible to find residency trained, proficient equine repro specialists who have a credible success rate, which make the whole enterprise worth the risk (because there are no Live Foal Guarantees with most imported frozen semen). Also of note is that after 9/11 you need to have a special licensing from the Department of Agriculture to import a tank of frozen semen. The tank must be hand carried through customs by this special agent of the Dept of Ag. and the tank can only enter the USA through a few special airports, like JFK (New York) and an airport on the West coast, (not sure but probably LAX). That part of the cost was something like $2,600 (about $800 for the tank and about $1,800 for the Customs /Dept. of Ag guy. A private citizen can not bring the tank into the USA as extra baggage (which was possible before 9/11). This alone may be why the semen must be collected in the USA, it very likely must also be stored here as well.

Given that the acumen, professionalism, skill and proficiency of veterinarians varies tremendously, and that there is no canine reproductive residency or minimal standards upon which to ground a claim of “expertise” .. and that’s here in the USA (god only knows what they do abroad), I can not see how it would be wise or financially worth the risk of importing canine frozen semen. You’d very likely end up with useless sludge.

Seems it would be wiser to go abroad, find the dog and the bloodline you like and import him. That way the semen comes in its own refillable "tank" ... the one that Mother Nature provided. And you can do some credible health testing on the dog here in the USA.

OF course you’d first have to acquire a good quality line-bred bitch with a solid top and bottom line, from proven producers, or you will end up with such an outcrossed spray of garbage, it will get you no where (or take too many generations to be of any value). Breeders who have good quality line-bred bitches are not going to let one go, so that is going to be the first obstacle.

There may be some interest in importing a linebred square, black vWD Clear male, with credible health testing, a credible family history of quality, who is not overangulated, who does not sit down like a frickin German Sheppard behind, who tracks cleanly, with good shoulders, a good top-line, a strong loin connection, bone and substance, an almond eye, good planes, a clean back skull, good feet, etc etc etc... who is not so coarse and overdone he looks like a realy ugly Boxer on steroids... but where are you going to find that?

If you are determined to import semen, you’d be best to go in with a group, but even then, there would need to be a verifiable track record or way to track the quality and viability of the frozen semen, and of the vet who handled it, which means among other things that it was properly collected, and stored at every step of the way (and that would cost as much as or more than a good dog).

I have a few questions for you Andy, “Master of the Internet Search.” Could you post some links to what info you’ve found in the topic so far. And, just to play devil’s advocate here… why are you asking? IS there a dog you want to breed to that resides outside the USA…. Have you seen the dog in person?

[andyhilt27]

#1 OF course you’d first have to acquire a good quality line-bred bitch with a solid top and bottom line, from proven producers, or you will end up with such an outcrossed spray of garbage, it will get you no where (or take too many generations to be of any value). Breeders who have good quality line-bred bitches are not going to let one go, so that is going to be the first obstacle.

#2There may be some interest in importing a linebred square, black vWD Clear male, with credible health testing, a credible family history of quality, who is not overangulated, who does not sit down like a frickin German Sheppard behind, who tracks cleanly, with good shoulders, a good top-line, a strong loin connection, bone and substance, an almond eye, good planes, a clean back skull, good feet, etc etc etc... who is not so coarse and overdone he looks like a realy ugly Boxer on steroids... but where are you going to find that?


#3I have a few questions for you Andy, “Master of the Internet Search.” Could you post some links to what info you’ve found in the topic so far. And, just to play devil’s advocate here… why are you asking? IS there a dog you want to breed to that resides outside the USA…. Have you seen the dog in person?

#1. Eva's dam is linebred on a certain male(Ch. yes, but that doesn't tell the whole story.) I am trying to do the homework on him and see what I can find out about her bottom line. Eva may be a starting point.....meaning the imported semen will be used at a later time perhaps even on one of her offspring. Of course Eva might not even be bred.

#2. Europe has a lot of dogs like you describe......they just aren't the fad style you hear about. Top secret stuff Elaine.....
Is broadening the quality gene pool in the U.S. a bad thing? Work with me here....Europe could benefit from improting more of our dogs.

#3. Yes I have interest in a few lines abroad.....none of which are south of here or east of Germany. Since importing semen seems to be too costly I will most likely take the bitch to the source and of course she will have to be proven before this investment.

From Akc.org:
Artificial Insemination

The AKC will register a litter that is produced through artificial insemination, provided that the following conditions are met.

For Fresh Semen:
•Sire and dam must both be present during the extraction of semen and the insemination of the bitch.


•The breeder completes and submits an Application to Register a Litter Resulting from Artificial Insemination Using Fresh Semen with the proper fee.
For Fresh Extended Semen:
•The semen must be extracted and extended by a licensed veterinarian.


•The insemination of the bitch is performed by a licensed veterinarian.


•The breeder completes and submits an Application to Register a Litter Resulting from Artificial Insemination Using Fresh Extended Semen containing the certifications completed by the veterinarian(s) that performed the extraction and the insemination.


•Sire must be AKC DNA certified.
For Frozen Semen:
•The collection of semen for the artificial breeding must be reported to the AKC with DNA certification. If the semen was collected after October 1, 1998, the sire must be AKC DNA Certified.


•The collector/storer must be on record with the AKC as familiar with and complying with the AKC regulations for record keeping and identification of dogs.


•The Application to Register a Litter Resulting from Artificial Insemination Using Frozen Semen must be submitted containing the certifications completed by the owner of the semen, the owner of the dam and the veterinarian who performed the artificial breeding, with the proper fee.


•All sire owners must sign the form transferring ownership of the frozen semen.

Thanks for the insight Elaine.

[Elaine]

In my opinion a foundation bitch must have a strong bottom line to her pedigree. (You could call it the Holsteiner Verband's approach to breeding). It is especially important the she come from a bottom line of producers… who's littermates are also dogs you’d want to see phenotypically in your whelping box.

Those bitches are rare.

Here is anther saying I am fond of, "A rising tide floats all boats."

A good dog is a good dog, and good for the breed, regardless of who owns it. So I encourage you to get out there, import a great dog, breed the dog, get the offspring out in the world so that they can shine and do good things for the breed.

[andyhilt27]

In my opinion a foundation bitch must have a strong bottom line to her pedigree. (You could call it the Holsteiner Verband's approach to breeding). It is especially important the she come from a bottom line of producers… who's littermates are also dogs you’d want to see phenotypically in your whelping box.

Those bitches are rare.

Here is anther saying I am fond of, "A rising tide floats all boats."

A good dog is a good dog, and good for the breed, regardless of who owns it. So I encourage you to get out there, import a great dog, breed the dog, get the offspring out in the world so that they can shine and do good things for the breed.

A few questions....

In terms of outcrossing is it better to have the bitch line bred or the stud? I guess it is ideal to have both.....Line bred to line bred outcross????

So importing a good bitch is better than importing a good stud???? Do I look here for a good bitch or stud? Which lines come from where ideally???

[Elaine]

A few questions....

So importing a good bitch is better than importing a good stud???? Do I look here for a good bitch or stud? Which lines come from where ideally???

A male has the potential to have a greater influence on a gene pool because they can project more copies of their genes into the future than a female can. So in one respect, the right male might be a better choice. One HUGE downside to this fabulous plan is acquiring that mythical "right male." You'd have a better chance of winning the Powerball.

BIS CH Debussy v.d. Noorderenk (the dog I co-owned in 1995) was an import, and by most definitions an outstanding dog, very correct in important ways that the Giant Schnauzer Breed needed then (and needs to this day). This is a photo of Brucie from our website, from a Dog News ad.
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp21/logresfarm/BIS20BISS20Ch_20Debussy20v_d_20Noor.jpg

Brucie won the Breed at the GSCA National Specialty three times, in 1995, 1997 and 1998, under respected judges… but he fell short of being "the right dog." Bluntly, he was just about a complete failure as a sire… in large part because he was an outcross to our bitches here and produced much too wide a variation of phenotypes. And he reproduced that strong European character, which is marvelously correct for the breed, and will get you sued in a blink of an eye, because dogs with his character are very difficult for most people to live with, and they quickly become out of control. It is difficult to stick to a breeding program if you are producing roughly 9 puppies in each litter and having temperament or social adjustment problems with half of them by the time they are a year old. People simply could not live with the drive and energy of Brucie's puppies. Heck, The Great Peter Green turned down the option of showing Brucie, in part because Brucie was such a tough dog, even for Peter Green. Brucie had "true Schnauzer character" ... and honestly, almost no one could live with him. That’s one reason I shake my head at people who think they want to breed Schutzhund dogs. Do they have any concept of the huge responsibility (legal and moral) they have to see that each and every puppy is correctly placed with someone who understands and can deal with the dog’s character over the life of the dog? I think not. I think they haven' a clue what they are doing. Couple that with the variation in the phenotype breeders will inevitably see when they introduce an outcross into a breeding program… knowing that they are responsible for every 30” coarse, overdone, parrot-mouth, round-eyed, cow-hocked, flat footed “True Schutzhund/Doberman Character” dog they produce, for the life span of each and every puppy they produce, and I see a disaster in the making for all involved, most especially for the dogs.

Just a few other thoughts on the topic:

A breeder’s power is in the dam line. Read Tom - Morningside Farm http://www.morningside-stud.com/ about the Holsteiner Verband’s reverence for their Stamm lines (the mare lines) to get an idea outside of any breed specific context. Holsteiners (specifically, those bred in Germany and approved by the German Holsteiner Verband) are world famous for their ability to consistently produce top quality show jumpers and they owe it to their stamm lines (mare lines), many of which are so valuable they never leave Germany. It is worth looking at these breeders proven model for producing generations of excellence, in an Olympic sport that is evaluated objectively by whether the rail stays up and the horse has the fastest time around the jump course. There is no subjective judging (like we see in the dog show ring) involved in evaluating show jumpers or the success of the breeding practices of show jumper breeders. They know how to select for a specific phenotype that directly relates to structure and movement. Show jumpers also have to be bold and courageous, or have some specific temperament traits that make them confident and fearless enough to get around a 1.60 meter course at speed. Valued breeding stallions must come from great stamm lines. It is virtually unheard of to have a valued breeding stallion come from less than a very well respected dam line. A stallion coming from an obscure or unproven mare line would simply not have any value and breeders would very likely never use him. The verband and breeders are happy to sell you semen, but German Holsteiner breeders never sell mares from certain Stamms line, they'd sell their left lung first.

Also, read up on what Raymond Oppenheimer did and wrote.

To evaluate how strong a dam line is, you look to what the dam line produces in each generation. To accurately do that you have to, among other things, have seen the dogs, understand structure and movement, understand breeding merit, be able to evaluate how consistently they produce a valued phenotype, and know the difference between a top quality breeding animal and a champion. They are not necessarily the same thing.

[Minka]

E ! I know someone who has used two different sires on the same breeding using frozen semen.
you DNA the bitch and the two sires and you DNA the whole lot when they come out and are about two weeks old.
The Aussies seem to do a whole lot of these frozen semen breedings , the moment they see that they have something worthwhile they "bank the dog"

Andy you seem obsessed with crossing a european dog to an american dog - Ray carlile used Windwalker on the Bunderseigerin Alida von something - he got Cara's skeeter who was titled in the US and Kalina von Nordenstamm

Mary Rogers did it with Dexter- Dexters breeder took a puppy - Its been done - the english did it (mark laad had a book on the doberman), the aussies have done it- why go through the expense.
What do you want to achieve?
If you really want something with mixed bloodlines import it -

[andyhilt27]

What do you want to achieve?
If you really want something with mixed bloodlines import it -

no

[dobesign]

Andy, I think the AKC statement is that both bitch and dog must be present in the US for FRESH semen, but not for frozen. Important distinction. Second, having imported two dogs from england (tavey and studbriar lines) I loved what I had, but what I brought in couldn't really compete in the breed ring, but did well in performance. People who did a lot of performance and tracking were interested in the dogs, but they are purists of their sport as are people in the breed ring. Without taking up any particular gauntlet, I would say that if you like the euro look or drive, then do euro. If you like american do american. But crossing them without a specific goal in mind is like breeding a smooth fox terrier to a chihuahua trying to get a toy fox terrier. Why reinvent the wheel?

[andyhilt27]

But crossing them without a specific goal in mind is like breeding a smooth fox terrier to a chihuahua trying to get a toy fox terrier. Why reinvent the wheel?


Nice comparison....but not that extreme. Of course I have goals in mind.

[Minka]

Brenna you actually had a dog from "tavey"?

[dobesign]

My Tavey dog was out of Tavey's Stormy Medallion. He was something of a whoops breeding, but I loved him anyway. His dad was 6 or 7 in 1971. :eek: so there! I've dated myself!:D