Ch. Foxfire's Magic Dragon

[andyhilt27]

What is the scoop on him? Does he have DCM? I read something about it but also read another saying the results were wrong.

So does anyone know?

[doberdogsfd]

The word is he does Andy. Where you considering using this dog Andy?
Haven't seen him since his last time out with Gwen.

I do not know his owner and we do not have Gwen show for us any longer. So, it isn't coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

The source that it came from would be considered credible and typically isn't wrong about this type of issue. A lot of other stufff...but not this.


Cheryl

[Elaine]

I believe that over a year ago, maybe longer, his owners took out an ad in Doberman Digest or the other magazine (I forget the other magazine’s name, it changed, but it’s the Doberman Magazine with the better quality photos).

Anyway, the owner took out an ad discussing what was known then about his health status. My understanding is that the progression has been normal, within the range of a dog that is being well medicated. I have not heard that he has passed. The dog has been used, there are puppies of his around. The best I can say is that when you have a weak bottom line in a pedigree, it is going to show through in the progeny.

[Janice McGerr]

Just got off the phone with Bev (Magic's owner).
He is still with us. And yes his frist test were wronge!

[dobesign]

I really like this dog, and I bet a bunch of other folks do too...my question is that if they spent all that money to run the ad saying he had dcm, then, if the test was wrong (and I vaguely remember them posting the previous tests), why haven't they run an ad saying that? DCM testing is not a 'one number' test like thyroid that you can 'just get another number'. I don't know how they diagnosed him, but typically it involves a 12 lead ecg, 2 view x-ray, ultrasound for ejection fraction, ultrasound for wall diameter, and even bloodwork. i'm not sure how the "test was wrong". I hope it is, I would just like to know how...:confused:

[Elaine]

I am not going to defend all of the idiotic testing Doberman breeders do, and or rely upon, but I agree with a point being made here. If some test or tests were done, and the owner thought they were credible enough to pay for a full page ad to publish them in a nationally distributed Breed magazine… and then they later decided or learned that the test were either inaccurate, unreliable or simply wrong, why on earth would they not also publish the new results with the same manner of wide distribution? Equally puzzling, did these owners overreact in the first place? If their judgment on how they chose to represent their dog’s medical health to the fancy was flawed or questionable (and even they may now reflect that it was), then where does their admittedly questionable judgment start or end?

[andyhilt27]

The word is he does Andy. Where you considering using this dog Andy?
Haven't seen him since his last time out with Gwen.

I do not know his owner and we do not have Gwen show for us any longer. So, it isn't coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

The source that it came from would be considered credible and typically isn't wrong about this type of issue. A lot of other stufff...but not this.


Cheryl
I was not considering him.....Although he looks great from his photos.

[andyhilt27]

The best I can say is that when you have a weak bottom line in a pedigree, it is going to show through in the progeny.

Are we looking at the same pedigree?

Kosmo, Rayden, Chaos, Sabrina, Daniella, Sinbad, and The All Mighty Kafka 3x's in 5 generations in the bottom line alone. weak?:confused:

[andyhilt27]

Apparently Bev took Magic to Texas A&M University for the testing and released the news in good faith following Rod Humphries' pursuit of a Cardio Registry.

During Dr. Kathryn Meurs' credible research at Washington State University she determined that DCM is autosomally dominant.....one parent, one gene is all that it takes. She goes on further to explain that genectic modifiers would explain why some die earlier in life and also why some would succumb to CHF vs. Sudden Death. This is where line breeding is so damning. Say you have a stud that is Cc mated with a cc bitch, 25% of all of those puppies will be affected with DCM. Cc x Cc equals 75% affected. CC x cc or Cc equals 100% affected. A single carrier in autosomally dominant is affected. If you have one stud that may be suspected of having DCM a lot in your pedigree chances are very very likely that you will produce the same.

Say we do find a marker......it would be impossible to identify all of the genetic modifiers that come into play with DCM......this breed will take a huge step back in conformation.
We would have no choice but to NOT breed carriers even if they were able to live until an old age.

[dobesign]

the problem is that the sweeping label of dcm dies NOT comprise all of the cardiac issues that actually end up killing our dobermans. Just because a genetic trait is a dominant does not mean that it is dominant in the population. Example? Humans would all be bald and 6 fingered if dominants always dictated the outcome. Also, with Magic, it is my understanding that he IS receiving care from a cardiologist and IS being medicated for a cardiac condition. Perhaps the label of DCM was the wrong element, but not the diagnosis of a cardiac (other than DCM) condition. It is truly a shame that our dogs do experience ANY cardiac condition. It is a greater shame that we, as doberman fanciers, feel the need to cover up cardiac or any other medical condition. My hat is off to Magic's owner for candidly speaking out about the dreadful news of her promising stud. If we all had the chutzpah to do that, our dogs would be better for it. As for Magic, I hope he has a fruitful time on earth with an owner that clearly loves him!

[Elaine]

During Dr. Kathryn Meurs' credible research at Washington State University she determined that DCM is autosomally dominant.....one parent, one gene is all that it takes. .

Andy, did you read what Meurs published? Did you understand what you were reading? Meurs was not the researcher who determined that DCM was Autosomal dominant, that had been determined years earlier. She pulled the plug on her research because it was going no where.

[Elaine]

Apparently Bev took Magic to Texas A&M University for the testing and released the news in good faith following Rod Humphries' pursuit of a Cardio Registry.

During Dr. Kathryn Meurs' credible research at Washington State University she determined that DCM is autosomally dominant.....one parent, one gene is all that it takes. She goes on further to explain that genectic modifiers would explain why some die earlier in life and also why some would succumb to CHF vs. Sudden Death. This is where line breeding is so damning. Say you have a stud that is Cc mated with a cc bitch, 25% of all of those puppies will be affected with DCM. Cc x Cc equals 75% affected. CC x cc or Cc equals 100% affected. A single carrier in autosomally dominant is affected. If you have one stud that may be suspected of having DCM a lot in your pedigree chances are very very likely that you will produce the same.

Say we do find a marker......it would be impossible to identify all of the genetic modifiers that come into play with DCM......this breed will take a huge step back in conformation.
We would have no choice but to NOT breed carriers even if they were able to live until an old age.

Meur’s got absolutely nowhere in her research, she did not “discover” anything at all that was new, she got nowhere in identifying any of the genes that might relate to DCM, and never even began the pursuit of epigenetic factors that are clearly at play inhibiting both the expression and transmission of DCM. Which helps explain why not all offspring of dogs will DCM develop or transmit it. Supposedly Eddie did not die of DCM, but his son Dagger did, but not all of Dagger's littermates have DCM and not all of his progeny do either. There is too much we do not know about even something as simple as accurately diagnosing DCM. There are too many vets who do not know what they are looking at and too many owners who do not do autopsies, for us to be making any claims at all about lines with or without DCM, or about credible breeding strategies for eliminating DCM. Guess work is not a substitute for research.

Without being able to identify dogs who will not transmit DCM, from those who will, we have no way of knowing if a line breeding is solidifying the mechanism or ability to NOT transmit DCM, which would be of tremendous value to the breed. There is no way to accurately say that any given pedigree is free of DCM. Just because the dog dies of something else first, does not mean he would not have developed DCM if he'd lived longer. Just because he dies of something else first, does not mean he will not transmit DCM.

[Elaine]

Are we looking at the same pedigree?

Kosmo, Rayden, Chaos, Sabrina, Daniella, Sinbad, and The All Mighty Kafka 3x's in 5 generations in the bottom line alone. weak?:confused:

Yes Andy we are speaking of the same dog… and I was speaking of the bottom line (top and bottom in his pedigree). You are confusing the number of male champions in a pedigree with bitch’s who produce or come from bitches who are producers. Many canine pedigrees reflect generations of people taking average to mediocre bitchs to successful males, perhaps with the expectation that the male will cover all the sins of the bitch. The progeny fade fast, or are very hit and miss, because there is no depth of quality in the pedigree. That sort of breeding strategy in equines would be considered of no value at all. Simply having a champion like Kafka in a pedigree does not mean you are a producer. Simply being a top winning dog does not mean you are a producer.

A classic example is Ch. Toledobes Serenghetti. Nothing remotely of her quality descends from her. She was not a producer, neither were her sisters, her dam or her female progeny. She was at best an end product.

Royal Doll’s Maria Telejia had no siblings that were champions and only produced three champions, and no daughters who produced anything. Her dam was Sherluck’s Brown who produced one champion, and had no female siblings who were champions.

Magic Dragon has two sibling both males… no bitches. His dam has no female progeny who have produced anything at all as far as I can see. I did not go further back.


He is a lovely dog, but if I wanted to replicate his phenotype, it would be a challenge. At present I can not imagine a bitch to put to him. But maybe if I were more inspired something would come to me. In any event, my impressions of the strength of his dam lines (in the context of my breeding strategy) is not even remotely as important as the much bigger news that Magic Dragon may be with us for many many many more years to come. His owners must be thrilled.

[andyhilt27]

Meurs was not the researcher who determined that DCM was Autosomal dominant, that had been determined years earlier.

It is my understanding that it was thought to be.....not determined.

[Elaine]

It is my understanding that it was thought to be.....not determined.
You need to read what she published and what had been published years before.

Did you read what she published?

[andyhilt27]

Which helps explain why not all offspring of dogs will DCM develop or transmit it. Supposedly Eddie did not die of DCM, but his son Dagger did, but not all of Dagger's littermates have DCM and not all of his progeny do either.

Just because the dog dies of something else first, does not mean he would not have developed DCM if he'd lived longer. Just because he dies of something else first, does not mean he will not transmit DCM.

That is the ugly truth of dominant inheritance with late onset. That and two affecteds will produce 25% clear. Cc x Cc.....All dobermans carrying the DCM gene(s) will die of it if they live long enough.

Yes Elaine, I read it and understood it.

nevermind....

[Elaine]

All dobermans carrying the DCM gene(s) will die of it if they live long enough.


There is no proof that all Dobermans carrying these genes will die of it. Epigenetic factors will inhibit both the transmission and the EXPRESSION of a gene or genes. It is likely that there are dogs carrying the genes who will not express or transmit DCM. For the sake of our breed we need to identify these dogs while they are still viable breeding animals and understand more about this.

For you or anyone, I have a copy of Meurs study if you do not. It is interesting... but a difficult read if you are not used to reading these kinds of things. Among all the posters we have here on DSNN with medical backgrounds, any questions raised about the medical terminology, meaning or context of results of the study can be answered or explained.

[dobesign]

There are two basic genetic types. Homozygous (exactly the same) and heterozygous (different). CCxCC and ccxcc are homozygous, and CcxCc is heterozygous. Heterozygous is typically considered a carrier, while cc or the CC is considered either affected or clear. CcxCc will produce 25% affecteds, and the rest will either be clear or carrier (it has not yet been established whether the presence of the autosomal dominant (C) will definitively produce the trait or whether the absence of it will produce it. Furter, I think it is important to point out that until there are MANY studies on the same characteristics producing the same results, we should not rely completely upon the results. In example, some of us that are old enough to remember that the periodic table of elements was based on what is now considered to be the wrong element. Personally, I have found autosomals hard to predict. It is also important to distinguish the autosomal transimission from the standard meiotic (sex chromosome) linked transmission modes. With autosomals, you can't definitely say it is 'on the father's side' or it only occurs in purple dogs. When doin such a study, there are so many variables to consider, it is often next to impossible to weed out the insignificant factors. I have no doubt that someone will pick up the Research Gauntlet and add ammo to this study, but for the moment, it is still an unfinished work. Granted, this is just my opinion.

[Jana]

I had two litters by Magic. I showed and finished Bev's Magic daughter (she took two majors in april and finished with a single the next weekend). Back last winter bev had more testing done on him. The echo looked really good and the cardiologist who did it was very excited that his first test might have been wrong. For days after that we had hopes that all was well.
They did a 24 hr holter on him at the same time and were waiting for the results.
Bev called me after the holter results came in, very upset, and said the holter came back bad. I said how bad, she said real bad and had to hang up because she could not talk about it at that time.
Later, she did give me numbers which I won't repeat but the numbers were high.
She has told a few people that he is fine but the holter did not say that. She had him collected again in May. She told my friend that if he was still alive at 7 yrs she would put him back out at stud.
These are the facts as she told them to me months ago.

[Elaine]

Jana,

The scenario you describe is absolutely appalling; utterly and completely inexcusable.

What Bev is going through is about the must heart breaking story imaginable…. it would be like finding out you had a terminal condition (after what should be a credible diagnostic process)... coming to terms with that fact, finding some measure of peace, and then being given the news that the diagnosis was wrong (again after a credible medical review)... going through that roller-coaster of emotions, and then finding out yet again that you are in fact terminal.

The veterinary medical professionals involved need to be held to some standard of professionalism, but I must say, there don’t seem to be any professional standards of conduct. With a few wonderful exceptions here and there, I find veterinarians as a group to be just about the least credible and least "professional" of all medical professionals. It's an effort to come up with even one canine vet we’ve dealt with over the years that has not been engaged in some level of activity that was either: grossly incompetent, offensive, idiotic, questionable or outright malpractice by even the lowest standards of human medicine.

Next week we will have an equine vet out who will want to tell me that I have to vaccinate my horses every year for rabies…. Without ever doing a titer, without any proof that the annual vaccination protocol is of any real benefit to the horse, without any awareness what-so-ever of the risks ANY vaccine presents, most especially while we OVER vaccinate, and I will be again faced with the option of simply asking the vet to leave my premises because I have absolutely no tolerance anymore for such grossly substandard medical care. I am not trumpeting medical doctors, god knows they make mistakes, but they are at least held to a professional standard that mandates that they either know what the hell they are doing, or defend their malpractice in a court of law.
…

[Elaine]

Yes Elaine, I read it and understood it.

That's great. I read it and did not really understand it until I read it again through from page one... with Arthur, who has an undergrad degree in Biochemistry and is a medical doctor.

Our impressions (Arthur's and mine), is that Meurs study was going absolutely no where. It is likely that Washington State University pulled the plug on Meurs and told her to wrap it up, it was a waste of time. Meurs had made no progress whatsoever in identifying any of the genes related to DCM, her research protocol was flawed, she seemed to be loosing research subjects (it was not credible to believe that the Dobermans in her research population were only having litters of 2 or three puppies, it appeared that she was loosing 50% of her research group)… and she found nothing new.

It has been known for over a decade that DCM is autosomal dominant with incomplete penetrance.

Here are IMPORTANT facts that most Doberman people are ignoring about DCM:

Not all heart failure is DCM.

Not all vets can properly diagnos DCM.

Dogs can succumb to massive organ failure as the result of some acute process, like infection or disease… that would cause heart failure. That is not heritable DCM, it is massive organ failure. Without an autopsy you may have the impression that DCM was the cause of death, but in fact, a massive infection that impacted the heart was the cause of death.

We see DCM in all Doberman bloodlines in this country.. all of them.

What is the one thing that is common to almost all of our Dobermans in this country? Answer: Their ears are cropped at about 8 weeks of age. That means Dobermans are vaccinated too early; it means they are exposed to things that are unique to the breed. Maybe, before we toss out EVERY good bloodline of Dobermans in this country (largely based ingnorance), we should take a step back and look at what else we might be doing that impacts our Doberman's health, and their immune system overall, from a very early age, that may impact them later in life.

The self-serving Judy Doniere approach to “Holter every dog at two years of age and require this information on a DPCA Futurity form" as though the test at that age would have any relevance to breeding decisions - is just about the most idiotic approach to the problem imaginable.* Said approach is good for Judy and her business partners, and Judy's pocket book, but it would be a disaster otherwise. At some point a Holter test is useful for diagnosing dogs, but for informed breeders and people who love this breed AND want to avoid the transmission of conditions like DCM, this "Holter a two year-old dog approach" is getting us absolutely no where.

*If the DPCA wishes to be a credible voice for the Doberman breed in 2009, the only new requirement we should add to a DPCA Futurity Entry Form would be to list the name of the licensed vet who did the ear crop. IF DPCA Board Members and vets like Patty Edwards and Sophia Koster would push for this, we might get somewhere with eliminating illegal ear croppers, but I am not convinced any of these people even care, and some DPCA Board Members openly admit to using illegal ear croppers. Maybe I should call Sharon Pflueger and see if she'll sponsor some change to our Futurity Requirements to include the name of the licensed vet who did the dog's ear crop. Sharon might be a good place to start.

[Lou's mom]

I'd be interested in a link to the study. When I was researching DCM for Logan, and Will, I wasn't finding anything done in the last 5 or so years.

Here are IMPORTANT facts that most Doberman people are ignoring about DCM:

Not all heart failure is DCM.

Not all vets can properly diagnos DCM.

Dogs can succumb to massive organ failure as the result of some acute process, like infection or disease… that would cause heart failure. That is not heritable DCM, it is massive organ failure. Without an autopsy (or with a really crappy autopsy) you may have the impression that DCM was the cause of death, but in fact, a massive infection that impacted the heart was the cause of death. ...

What is the one thing that is common to almost all of our Dobermans in this country? Answer: Their ears are cropped at about 8 weeks of age.

True: Lou collapsed suddenly the 2nd morning of an agility meet, while hanging w/his other best human buddy, our vet. W/out an autopsy (which Brenna strongly encouraged/supported me in having done, as I was 2 weeks and 3 states away) I would not have known that he passed from hemangiosarcoma (sp?). Another vet friend edumacated me on that when his breeder offered me his father a few years later.

FWIW, Lou's ears were done at 10 weeks, by an accredited & highly sought after DVM near Stone Mtn GA.

[Elaine]

It's not a link. It's a pdf file... we have several published studies... they are all on my external hard drive... which I have put somewhere... can't think where at the moment. I'll find it and email the Meurs study to you by tomorrow morning. :)

[Lou's mom]

cool thanks. won't be back on interweb for a couple days, so whenever you run across it would be fine. Thanks!

[andyhilt27]

Internet is down....DCM plug is not pulled @wsu. More info when my net is back up.

[Elaine]

Internet is down....DCM plug is not pulled @wsu. More info when my net is back up.
That particular study had its plug pulled. It's over. The Boxer study had better results... but that appiles to Boxers, not to Dobes.

[andyhilt27]

FWIW, I offered to donate an entire litter. Not needed right now.