admin
04-16-2008, 12:38 PM
PICA--an eating/behavioral disorder - Grace could use our thoughts and prayers
PICA--an eating/behavioral disorder - Grace could use our thoughts and prayers
We heard from the owner last night that Grace -a dog we bred from our first litter - who went out the door at 11 weeks - has PICA--an eating/behavioral disorder. We want to share this with our readers in the hopes they we will all benefit from a better understanding of PICA. By way of background, Grace was Elaine's pick in our 2004 Kafka – Brentina litter. It was a very difficult decision to sell Grace, but we were assured that we’d get a puppy back, and that if the purchaser was ever to part with her, Grace would come back to us. A year or so later we had an issue with the people who made this agreement, and to retaliate against us, they chose not to honor it. We never got our puppy, and when they decided to part with Grace, they sold her rather than send her back to us. In January of 2006 we discovered that Grace was now owned by a lovely couple in Oregon.... and that they had been given “permission” to spay Grace. Any of you who are breeders will understand this scenario, you may be surprised by who it was who dishonored our purchase agreement.
Never-the-less, Grace is now owned and loved by Mo and Gary... and without any question, she is loved.
Here is the scenario related to the PICA, that is taken almost verbatim from Mo's email, which we received late last night. Some time between Sunday and Monday Grace got a hold of a piece of cloth and ate it. The owners came home Monday afternoon to a very sick little girl. They rushed Grace to the vet; gave her subQs for dehydration and a new anti-nausea drug that is out. Took her back to the vet yesterday for the a full barium test and more blood tests. The barium confirmed she had something going through her intestines.
The owner walked Grace from about 8pm until midnight last night, hoping the object would pass. By 1am next morning the owner decided the she wasn't comfortable with Grace’s condition, so they rushed her to a well-respected emergency veterinary service in Clackamas, Oregon. Long story/short-- Grace had surgery at 1pm today (her 5th surgery in three years).
The surgeon said Grace was in pristine health except for the PICA issue. Unfortunately, they will have to muzzle Grace when she is loose in the house or running in the parks. The owner says, “We cannot take a chance of putting [Grace] through this over and over again. Just when we let our guard down, sure enough she swallows something, with the snap of a finger. We are fortunate we can afford the surgeries (over $20,000+)."
They are going to take Grace to a behaviorist and get some guidance. They do not believe PICA is hereditary, but they want to be aware of what is going on with Grace. The surgeon told them that he sees more and more Dobermans with this problem. The owner says, "I think I age 10 years every time this happens." The surgeon told the owners that most dogs grow out of it and that Grace should live to a ripe old age. She should be up and terrorizing the owners two wiener dogs in a week or so.
The surgeon wants them to move Grace off of the raw diet onto a more gentle diet. They have chosen Evo w/chicken and Turkey, and will supplement it with veges/fruit, misc. vitamins, SynoviG3 and, most important, CoQ10 to promote a healthy heart. Mo said she was hoping to be able to take Grase home tomorrow evening and that she will stay home on Friday and throughout the weekend, keeping a steady eye on Grace and holdiing her tight.”
I suspect that Marilyn, Gary and Grace could use some good wishes and a few prayers about now... and maybe even some kind words. If you’ve experienced PICA, if you have any thoughts or advice... it would be nice to hear from you.
__________________
-Arthur
www.logresfarm.com (http://www.logresfarm.com/)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2 04-11-2008, 09:17 AM
Sheila
Grace and Pica
Hi Marilyn
I have mailed you privately with my experiences and again wish you all and Grace most importantly a very very speedy recovery. Big hugs to all!
Sheila
Sheila
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3 04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
Elaine
Mo,
Hope all is well with Grace this morning. She is in our thoughts, as are you and Gary.
When you have a moment, I was thinking that what has happened to Grace may be a value to others. It would certainly be worth looking at what distinguishes Grace from her littermates and close relatives who do not swallow things. Maybe if we all compare notes some common denominator will occur to us.
Liz, Grace’s mom would eat some of the stuffing in plush toys if she had a chance, but she never had a problem with an obstruction. I only know she ate pieces of stuffing because I would sometimes see small remnants in her byproducts. There was a point back in 2004 when we had moved and things were pretty hectic around here, and I think she was stressed because she could not get her regular amount of exercise. As I recall, I noticed the behavior more during that period and not at all when we’d settled here and she had a more typical exercise routine.
Brentina and Brentano are oral, in that they most always have something in their mouths... i.e. a ball, a toy, a pine cone or a stick. Some of the Trotyl – Brentina litter are also oral, I think one or two who do not live with us have problems with eating things. Their owners can provide details. For the littermates that we have raised, they most always have a toy in their mouth when they’re playing, but none of our kids has ever had a problem swallowing anything. We live on 22 acres. All of our dogs get an extraordinary amount of exercise and they get lots of physical stimulation. None swallow things to the point where they have an obstruction, except Grace’s brother Tungsten, who swallowed a sock when he was a littel over two years old. Tungsten had surgery and did not have a problem again (almost loosing him scared us near to death and we became fanatics about picking up socks after that. Still, we’re human and Tungsten did snag a soc or two off the bedroom floor, but it was never a problem again, knock on wood). The only unusual thing about Tungsten is that we did not raise him as a young dog, and we believe that he was left ignored in a dog run and/or crate a good deal of the time.
I do not know alll the details of how Grace was raised, but the first owners both worked outside the home. And, they had roughly 11plus dog, cats and/or other animals, on a large city lot. I think it’s safe to say Grace spent a fair amount of time in a crate, much more so than our dogs. I recall that early on Grace had one course of antibiotics after another for what appeared to be allergic reactions to her food.
Maybe food plays a part, we feed Purina Pro Plan. People differ strongly about what is the best diet. I am not a spokesperson for Purina Pro Plan, but we’ve fed it for about 30 years. We have no skin problems of any kind, our dogs have excellent muscle... and shiny healthy coats, with good deep rich color. Grace’s first owners fed a raw diet, Tungsten’s first owner fed Bil-Jac, maybe diet has something to do with this.
We try very hard to never have a sock or anything available (except hard bones and hard rubber toys), but we’re human. Sometimes even now a sock get’s overlooked. Lil Claire will definitely pick up a sock if the opportunity presents itself. But she has never swallowed one. I could mention here that even though she doesn’t swallow clothing, she does tend to leave her “mark.” The other day I was at the dry cleaners. Vic knows we show dogs. He was going over the items I was dropping off and noticed that on my new Ralph Lauren navy slacks someone had eaten the button hole... the entire upper zipper part of the pants (where the button hole was supposed to be) was missing... completely gone!!! All that remained was shredded fabric. Vic just held it up, laughed and said, “One of the dogs?” Yep, it was Lil’ Claire.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4 04-11-2008, 10:06 AM
Sonquest
Grace
Hi Marilyn,
Sounds like Grace is a very lucky girl to have a Mom and Dad who love her so much! I know it may sound crazy but perhaps you might try someone who "talks to dogs"! I know a woman who has a beautiful boxer who wasn't into showing. They had the dog "talk" to a dog communicator at a dog show and found out that she didn't like her name! So they changed her name from Jodi to "Sparkles" and she went on to win Best of Oppisite Sex at the Boxer National the following year! Sounds crazy I know but might be worth a try.
Hugs,
Tina
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5 04-11-2008, 04:53 PM
Elaine
I hope someone will come along here and post contact info for a pet communicator. In the meantime, I was talking to a friend about Grace... and how she was raised in a house full of dogs and other animals... my friend’s first thought is that Grace is playing a form of "keep away" ... the fatal version. There might be something to this; Grace may be trying to assure that the toys she has are all hers.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6 04-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Elaine2
Grace, Mo and Gary
Mo and Gary, our thoughts and prayers are with both of you and beautiful Grace. I hope that you can get her home tonight for comforting snuggles.
We have issues with Quincy gutting and eating stuffies, toes off of socks etc etc. We too have to watch him like a hawk, pick things up and we do not buy him stuffies anymore. If someone buys him one and he guts it 10mins later, we totally gut it of stuffing and give it back to him for a few minutes at a time, as he also eats the material.
Thank goodness he has never had a blockage. So far he has passed anything he ate including half of his nylon collar. We also have to watch him with sticks and branches, as Elaine and Arthur can vouch for.
Hugs to all of you
Elaine 2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7 04-11-2008, 05:52 PM
jkf
animal communicator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
I hope someone will come along here and post contact info for a pet communicator. In the meantime, I was talking to a friend about Grace... and how she was raised in a house full of dogs and other animals... my friend’s first thought is that Grace is playing a form of "keep away" ... the fatal version. There might be something to this; Grace may be trying to assure that the toys she has are all hers.
I didn't read all these emails reagarding Grace, but I do know of an animal communicator. I have not used her yet. But I have a friend that does. Her website is www.animaltelepathy.com (http://www.animaltelepathy.com/).
Good Luck -Julie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#8 04-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Elaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine2
We also have to watch him with sticks and branches, as Elaine and Arthur can vouch for.Elaine 2
Actually I think it's Cartier who can best vouch for what Q was like with a stick. Just found this photo of Cartier, Brentina, Brentano and Liz... all playing together. Seems like ages ago.
Attached Thumbnails
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#9 04-11-2008, 07:55 PM
Elaine2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
Actually I think it's Cartier who can best vouch for what Q was like with a stick. Just found this photo of Cartier, Brentina, Brentano and Liz... all playing together. Seems like ages ago.
Ohhhh, what a majestic sight that is.
E2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#10 04-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Jan
a good contact
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have used Chris Stakes to get an insight on my dogs. She's shockingly good, doesn't need to ask you anything but what you want answered. I was amazed what she did with my guys, it was real. Her email
pcs-llc@sprynet.com (pcs-llc@sprynet.com)
She's really busy, so it could take a bit of time.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dogshownewsnetwork.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif second page of this thread
04-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Betty
Grace
Mo and Gary, 'So sorry to hear about Grace, but glad she is recovering well. She is very lucky to have such caring owners. I know you are looking forward to getting her home and I can only imagine how happy she will be to get home!
We have 3 Dobes. Ralph, the oldest will be eight this spring. When she was young she would eat anything. I always carry treats in my pockets when I have the girls out. One day when I was at work, Ralph went through the clothes hamper and ate the pockets out of all my jeans -- guess there must have been a few crumbs left in them. Thankfully she has outgrown this. Our baby Cera sounds much like some of her brothers and sisters. She loves twigs, sticks, leaves...... I know my neighbors think I'm nuts when they see me with my hand down her throat trying to retrieve whatever. Hopefully this will pass too.
Anyway, the important thing is that Grace is OK and that she will be home with her people soon. Take care.
Betty
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12 04-12-2008, 11:21 AM
Elaine
We hear that Grace had a good night last night... so all is good.
I think that possibly Mo did not know about this thread... I emailed her about it... maybe she can give us an update.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13 04-13-2008, 01:36 AM
Ann Lanier
FYI Strange PICA
I hope Grace will continue to recover!
Just as another thing to watch, I had a friend whose bitch ate the tin foil they had lined their charcoal grill with. They were cleaning the BBQ and had removed and wadded up the foil. In this case there were meat smells, so there was some relationship to food... maybe..... But you just wouldn't think a dog would eat that........
The outcome was the worst, the foil had many sharp edges.
I also once bought two big loaves of sourdough bread for a visiting friend who left it where my pregnant bitch cold get it. She ate the whole 2 loaves and was a very very sick girl. That's not PICA, but way too much of a good thing.
a
__________________
PICA--an eating/behavioral disorder - Grace could use our thoughts and prayers
We heard from the owner last night that Grace -a dog we bred from our first litter - who went out the door at 11 weeks - has PICA--an eating/behavioral disorder. We want to share this with our readers in the hopes they we will all benefit from a better understanding of PICA. By way of background, Grace was Elaine's pick in our 2004 Kafka – Brentina litter. It was a very difficult decision to sell Grace, but we were assured that we’d get a puppy back, and that if the purchaser was ever to part with her, Grace would come back to us. A year or so later we had an issue with the people who made this agreement, and to retaliate against us, they chose not to honor it. We never got our puppy, and when they decided to part with Grace, they sold her rather than send her back to us. In January of 2006 we discovered that Grace was now owned by a lovely couple in Oregon.... and that they had been given “permission” to spay Grace. Any of you who are breeders will understand this scenario, you may be surprised by who it was who dishonored our purchase agreement.
Never-the-less, Grace is now owned and loved by Mo and Gary... and without any question, she is loved.
Here is the scenario related to the PICA, that is taken almost verbatim from Mo's email, which we received late last night. Some time between Sunday and Monday Grace got a hold of a piece of cloth and ate it. The owners came home Monday afternoon to a very sick little girl. They rushed Grace to the vet; gave her subQs for dehydration and a new anti-nausea drug that is out. Took her back to the vet yesterday for the a full barium test and more blood tests. The barium confirmed she had something going through her intestines.
The owner walked Grace from about 8pm until midnight last night, hoping the object would pass. By 1am next morning the owner decided the she wasn't comfortable with Grace’s condition, so they rushed her to a well-respected emergency veterinary service in Clackamas, Oregon. Long story/short-- Grace had surgery at 1pm today (her 5th surgery in three years).
The surgeon said Grace was in pristine health except for the PICA issue. Unfortunately, they will have to muzzle Grace when she is loose in the house or running in the parks. The owner says, “We cannot take a chance of putting [Grace] through this over and over again. Just when we let our guard down, sure enough she swallows something, with the snap of a finger. We are fortunate we can afford the surgeries (over $20,000+)."
They are going to take Grace to a behaviorist and get some guidance. They do not believe PICA is hereditary, but they want to be aware of what is going on with Grace. The surgeon told them that he sees more and more Dobermans with this problem. The owner says, "I think I age 10 years every time this happens." The surgeon told the owners that most dogs grow out of it and that Grace should live to a ripe old age. She should be up and terrorizing the owners two wiener dogs in a week or so.
The surgeon wants them to move Grace off of the raw diet onto a more gentle diet. They have chosen Evo w/chicken and Turkey, and will supplement it with veges/fruit, misc. vitamins, SynoviG3 and, most important, CoQ10 to promote a healthy heart. Mo said she was hoping to be able to take Grase home tomorrow evening and that she will stay home on Friday and throughout the weekend, keeping a steady eye on Grace and holdiing her tight.”
I suspect that Marilyn, Gary and Grace could use some good wishes and a few prayers about now... and maybe even some kind words. If you’ve experienced PICA, if you have any thoughts or advice... it would be nice to hear from you.
__________________
-Arthur
www.logresfarm.com (http://www.logresfarm.com/)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2 04-11-2008, 09:17 AM
Sheila
Grace and Pica
Hi Marilyn
I have mailed you privately with my experiences and again wish you all and Grace most importantly a very very speedy recovery. Big hugs to all!
Sheila
Sheila
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3 04-11-2008, 10:03 AM
Elaine
Mo,
Hope all is well with Grace this morning. She is in our thoughts, as are you and Gary.
When you have a moment, I was thinking that what has happened to Grace may be a value to others. It would certainly be worth looking at what distinguishes Grace from her littermates and close relatives who do not swallow things. Maybe if we all compare notes some common denominator will occur to us.
Liz, Grace’s mom would eat some of the stuffing in plush toys if she had a chance, but she never had a problem with an obstruction. I only know she ate pieces of stuffing because I would sometimes see small remnants in her byproducts. There was a point back in 2004 when we had moved and things were pretty hectic around here, and I think she was stressed because she could not get her regular amount of exercise. As I recall, I noticed the behavior more during that period and not at all when we’d settled here and she had a more typical exercise routine.
Brentina and Brentano are oral, in that they most always have something in their mouths... i.e. a ball, a toy, a pine cone or a stick. Some of the Trotyl – Brentina litter are also oral, I think one or two who do not live with us have problems with eating things. Their owners can provide details. For the littermates that we have raised, they most always have a toy in their mouth when they’re playing, but none of our kids has ever had a problem swallowing anything. We live on 22 acres. All of our dogs get an extraordinary amount of exercise and they get lots of physical stimulation. None swallow things to the point where they have an obstruction, except Grace’s brother Tungsten, who swallowed a sock when he was a littel over two years old. Tungsten had surgery and did not have a problem again (almost loosing him scared us near to death and we became fanatics about picking up socks after that. Still, we’re human and Tungsten did snag a soc or two off the bedroom floor, but it was never a problem again, knock on wood). The only unusual thing about Tungsten is that we did not raise him as a young dog, and we believe that he was left ignored in a dog run and/or crate a good deal of the time.
I do not know alll the details of how Grace was raised, but the first owners both worked outside the home. And, they had roughly 11plus dog, cats and/or other animals, on a large city lot. I think it’s safe to say Grace spent a fair amount of time in a crate, much more so than our dogs. I recall that early on Grace had one course of antibiotics after another for what appeared to be allergic reactions to her food.
Maybe food plays a part, we feed Purina Pro Plan. People differ strongly about what is the best diet. I am not a spokesperson for Purina Pro Plan, but we’ve fed it for about 30 years. We have no skin problems of any kind, our dogs have excellent muscle... and shiny healthy coats, with good deep rich color. Grace’s first owners fed a raw diet, Tungsten’s first owner fed Bil-Jac, maybe diet has something to do with this.
We try very hard to never have a sock or anything available (except hard bones and hard rubber toys), but we’re human. Sometimes even now a sock get’s overlooked. Lil Claire will definitely pick up a sock if the opportunity presents itself. But she has never swallowed one. I could mention here that even though she doesn’t swallow clothing, she does tend to leave her “mark.” The other day I was at the dry cleaners. Vic knows we show dogs. He was going over the items I was dropping off and noticed that on my new Ralph Lauren navy slacks someone had eaten the button hole... the entire upper zipper part of the pants (where the button hole was supposed to be) was missing... completely gone!!! All that remained was shredded fabric. Vic just held it up, laughed and said, “One of the dogs?” Yep, it was Lil’ Claire.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#4 04-11-2008, 10:06 AM
Sonquest
Grace
Hi Marilyn,
Sounds like Grace is a very lucky girl to have a Mom and Dad who love her so much! I know it may sound crazy but perhaps you might try someone who "talks to dogs"! I know a woman who has a beautiful boxer who wasn't into showing. They had the dog "talk" to a dog communicator at a dog show and found out that she didn't like her name! So they changed her name from Jodi to "Sparkles" and she went on to win Best of Oppisite Sex at the Boxer National the following year! Sounds crazy I know but might be worth a try.
Hugs,
Tina
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#5 04-11-2008, 04:53 PM
Elaine
I hope someone will come along here and post contact info for a pet communicator. In the meantime, I was talking to a friend about Grace... and how she was raised in a house full of dogs and other animals... my friend’s first thought is that Grace is playing a form of "keep away" ... the fatal version. There might be something to this; Grace may be trying to assure that the toys she has are all hers.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#6 04-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Elaine2
Grace, Mo and Gary
Mo and Gary, our thoughts and prayers are with both of you and beautiful Grace. I hope that you can get her home tonight for comforting snuggles.
We have issues with Quincy gutting and eating stuffies, toes off of socks etc etc. We too have to watch him like a hawk, pick things up and we do not buy him stuffies anymore. If someone buys him one and he guts it 10mins later, we totally gut it of stuffing and give it back to him for a few minutes at a time, as he also eats the material.
Thank goodness he has never had a blockage. So far he has passed anything he ate including half of his nylon collar. We also have to watch him with sticks and branches, as Elaine and Arthur can vouch for.
Hugs to all of you
Elaine 2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7 04-11-2008, 05:52 PM
jkf
animal communicator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
I hope someone will come along here and post contact info for a pet communicator. In the meantime, I was talking to a friend about Grace... and how she was raised in a house full of dogs and other animals... my friend’s first thought is that Grace is playing a form of "keep away" ... the fatal version. There might be something to this; Grace may be trying to assure that the toys she has are all hers.
I didn't read all these emails reagarding Grace, but I do know of an animal communicator. I have not used her yet. But I have a friend that does. Her website is www.animaltelepathy.com (http://www.animaltelepathy.com/).
Good Luck -Julie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#8 04-11-2008, 06:26 PM
Elaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine2
We also have to watch him with sticks and branches, as Elaine and Arthur can vouch for.Elaine 2
Actually I think it's Cartier who can best vouch for what Q was like with a stick. Just found this photo of Cartier, Brentina, Brentano and Liz... all playing together. Seems like ages ago.
Attached Thumbnails
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#9 04-11-2008, 07:55 PM
Elaine2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine
Actually I think it's Cartier who can best vouch for what Q was like with a stick. Just found this photo of Cartier, Brentina, Brentano and Liz... all playing together. Seems like ages ago.
Ohhhh, what a majestic sight that is.
E2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#10 04-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Jan
a good contact
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have used Chris Stakes to get an insight on my dogs. She's shockingly good, doesn't need to ask you anything but what you want answered. I was amazed what she did with my guys, it was real. Her email
pcs-llc@sprynet.com (pcs-llc@sprynet.com)
She's really busy, so it could take a bit of time.
__________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dogshownewsnetwork.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif second page of this thread
04-11-2008, 09:45 PM
Betty
Grace
Mo and Gary, 'So sorry to hear about Grace, but glad she is recovering well. She is very lucky to have such caring owners. I know you are looking forward to getting her home and I can only imagine how happy she will be to get home!
We have 3 Dobes. Ralph, the oldest will be eight this spring. When she was young she would eat anything. I always carry treats in my pockets when I have the girls out. One day when I was at work, Ralph went through the clothes hamper and ate the pockets out of all my jeans -- guess there must have been a few crumbs left in them. Thankfully she has outgrown this. Our baby Cera sounds much like some of her brothers and sisters. She loves twigs, sticks, leaves...... I know my neighbors think I'm nuts when they see me with my hand down her throat trying to retrieve whatever. Hopefully this will pass too.
Anyway, the important thing is that Grace is OK and that she will be home with her people soon. Take care.
Betty
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#12 04-12-2008, 11:21 AM
Elaine
We hear that Grace had a good night last night... so all is good.
I think that possibly Mo did not know about this thread... I emailed her about it... maybe she can give us an update.
__________________
Elaine
http://logresfarm.com (http://logresfarm.com/)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#13 04-13-2008, 01:36 AM
Ann Lanier
FYI Strange PICA
I hope Grace will continue to recover!
Just as another thing to watch, I had a friend whose bitch ate the tin foil they had lined their charcoal grill with. They were cleaning the BBQ and had removed and wadded up the foil. In this case there were meat smells, so there was some relationship to food... maybe..... But you just wouldn't think a dog would eat that........
The outcome was the worst, the foil had many sharp edges.
I also once bought two big loaves of sourdough bread for a visiting friend who left it where my pregnant bitch cold get it. She ate the whole 2 loaves and was a very very sick girl. That's not PICA, but way too much of a good thing.
a
__________________